Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 145 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4321 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 01:17 PM
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So far I haven't noticed any changes in the menu. The changes I have noticed are:

Model is now VW500ES1 vs VW500ES

Quick start manual (multilingual) now mentions the VW300ES.
CDROM Manual includes the VW300ES.

The current sample I have has very good native contrast I am wondering if a better contrast can hide the Iris better? I been using the same comparison scenes in Oblivion as my RS57. I didn't do any calibrations with the unit other than basic settings to ensure I'm not clipping whites or crushing blacks. I'll squeeze in a 3D movie and see if ghosting is improved, but I do think the Iris is smoother. I been using Auto limited after the contrast checks and it's not as noticeable as I recall.

My only gripe is color temperature on the top left is slightly off more than the rest of the screen.

More testing will follow later today.
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post #4322 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cischico View Post
So far I haven't noticed any changes in the menu. The changes I have noticed are:

Model is now VW500ES1 vs VW500ES

Quick start manual (multilingual) now mentions the VW300ES.
CDROM Manual includes the VW300ES.

The current sample I have has very good native contrast I am wondering if a better contrast can hide the Iris better? I been using the same comparison scenes in Oblivion as my RS57. I didn't do any calibrations with the unit other than basic settings to ensure I'm not clipping whites or crushing blacks. I'll squeeze in a 3D movie and see if ghosting is improved, but I do think the Iris is smoother. I been using Auto limited after the contrast checks and it's not as noticeable as I recall.

My only gripe is color temperature on the top left is slightly off more than the rest of the screen.

More testing will follow later today.
Unless the iris algorithms have changed through firmware, the contrast of the machine isn't going change how it operates. The DI doesn't know what the contrast of the projector is. It only sees digital information and adjusts based on APL, the number of pixels at a certain brightness level, and will change quickly if it detects a huge change in APL such as a scene transition among many other things. The coders need to know what the average native contrast of the projector is to create appropriate algorithms based around the contrast information. It doesn't work the other way around. There are variances in out of the box gamma and other calibration related areas of PQ and this alone can change how a DI works. So unless they've actually updated the DI algorithms in a newer firmware, any changes in performance you see are based on calibration and or settings.

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post #4323 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Unless the iris algorithms have changed through firmware, the contrast of the machine isn't going change how it operates. The DI doesn't know what the contrast of the projector is. It only sees digital information and adjusts based on APL, the number of pixels at a certain brightness level, and will change quickly if it detects a huge change in APL such as a scene transition among many other things. The coders need to know what the average native contrast of the projector is to create appropriate algorithms based around the contrast information. It doesn't work the other way around. There are variances in out of the box gamma and other calibration related areas of PQ and this alone can change how a DI works. So unless they've actually updated the DI algorithms in a newer firmware, any changes in performance you see are based on calibration and or settings.
I am alluding to what our eyes perceive versus what the pj is doing. The contrast of the machine appears to have improved since release. The increase is more than what I would consider the norm. I notice the black floor of the projector more so than I notice brightness, but up to a certain point the black floor isn't as noticeable anymore as my room environment starts coming into effect.
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post #4324 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 02:02 PM
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That's going to be from the higher native contrast on the specific unit you have then. Like I said, unless Sony has actually made a change to the DI algorithms, the iris will change position the same on all units, having the projector calibrated to the same standard being a prerequisite. Alterations in gamma, brightness, contrast, RC level, ect between units will change how the algorithms see "contrast" within the image and it's workings will adjust accordingly.

From what I've seen personally, the DI on the 500/600ES is a little more aggressive than what's on the 1000/1100ES. I think they coded it to work this way on purpose to try and bridge the gap in contrast between the flagship 4K projector and this one as much as possible.

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post #4325 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 02:04 PM
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My only gripe is color temperature on the top left is slightly off more than the rest of the screen.
For me this was a major issue. I had three units pass through my hands and all had shading (colour non-uniformity) issues. Mine were all at the bottom corners of the screen, with the right bottom corner being worse - this with the projector upside-down (i.e. ceiling mounted). Is yours also ceiling mounted or sitting on a shelf? If the latter, your issue is similar to mine.

The shading issues plus the long thermal convergence drift (almost up to one hour) that all units exhibited, made me return the 500ES and get an 1100ES instead. I was not willing to pay the price for a 500ES projector having these issues which, for me, are not acceptable. The 1100ES has none of these issues.

The colour non-uniformity and thermal convergence drift were also pointed out by the more in-depth Cine4Home review, which I summarized here:

Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread
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post #4326 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Unless the iris algorithms have changed through firmware, the contrast of the machine isn't going change how it operates. The DI doesn't know what the contrast of the projector is. It only sees digital information and adjusts based on APL, the number of pixels at a certain brightness level, and will change quickly if it detects a huge change in APL such as a scene transition among many other things. The coders need to know what the average native contrast of the projector is to create appropriate algorithms based around the contrast information. It doesn't work the other way around. There are variances in out of the box gamma and other calibration related areas of PQ and this alone can change how a DI works. So unless they've actually updated the DI algorithms in a newer firmware, any changes in performance you see are based on calibration and or settings.
Actually, there seems to be some correlation between the function of the Iris and the contrast of the image (or Gamma?). Using the Spears & Munsil calibration BD, on my 1100ES the whites will clip for contrast values above 88. However, with the Iris on Full Auto the whites will not clip even with the contrast set at 100 (Max), but the image appears more contrasty and brighter overall. In both cases, the Iris is fully open, of course, but the internal image processing algorithm changes.
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post #4327 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
Actually, there seems to be some correlation between the function of the Iris and the contrast of the image (or Gamma?). Using the Spears & Munsil calibration BD, on my 1100ES the whites will clip for contrast values above 88. However, with the Iris on Full Auto the whites will not clip even with the contrast set at 100 (Max), but the image appears more contrasty and brighter overall. In both cases, the Iris is fully open, of course, but the internal image processing algorithm changes.
I'm talking about on/off contrast of the projector, not the "contrast" setting in the menus. The latter will change how the DI operates, which is exactly what I'm talking about.

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post #4328 of 4777 Old 01-04-2015, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
For me this was a major issue. I had three units pass through my hands and all had shading (colour non-uniformity) issues. Mine were all at the bottom corners of the screen, with the right bottom corner being worse - this with the projector upside-down (i.e. ceiling mounted). Is yours also ceiling mounted or sitting on a shelf? If the latter, your issue is similar to mine.

The shading issues plus the long thermal convergence drift (almost up to one hour) that all units exhibited, made me return the 500ES and get an 1100ES instead. I was not willing to pay the price for a 500ES projector having these issues which, for me, are not acceptable. The 1100ES has none of these issues.

The colour non-uniformity and thermal convergence drift were also pointed out by the more in-depth Cine4Home review, which I summarized here:

Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread
This is the 12th unit or so I have looked at from release until now. The Thermal convergence was bad on release and has improved throughout time. The unit I have now is the best I have seen all around convergence wise OOTB. The blue shifts maybe half a pixel over an hour. the worst I seen was 3 pixels off but settled within half a pixel.

You do get what you pay for the 1100ES that's for sure. I'm curious if the latest ones have better native contrast than earlier units. I have only played around with a couple of them and they were all early samples.

Forgot to mention the majority of the 500ES units I looked at had excellent uniformity. I guess you can't have it all with the 500ES models. Always some kind of trade off.

Last edited by cischico; 01-04-2015 at 03:28 PM.
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post #4329 of 4777 Old 01-05-2015, 05:42 AM
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I've had my VW500ES since last October and love it.

What do you guys find gives you the best contrast, settings wise? So far I'm torn between the settings that are Cinema1 Default (but in low lamp), and also Sound and Visions' review settings (Iris brightness 65, Dynamic Iris limited, brightness 54 and contrast 75).

What do you all find gives you the best black levels settings wise. I have a 133" HP screen so a loss of brightness is not a big deal.
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post #4330 of 4777 Old 01-05-2015, 06:30 AM
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Help me with my math, when trying to decide whether to go with zoom method vs. A lens. This would be with a 600ES.

First, I'm making an assumption of 1,250 calibrated at mid zoom (splitting difference between projector central and projector reviews -- actually a little closer to the lower projector central numbers). I know it's possible that the number could be a hair lower, but for relative calculations, I had to make an assumption.

For this exercise, I'm assuming a 1.0 gain screen, like maybe the Seymour XD 2.35 -- 132" wide (I might ultimately go with a different material/manufacturer). Also, I will be near max throw, at 21'.

Zoom method:

16x9: 56 x 100 - nearly full telephoto, so assuming 15% or so drop in brightness to 1,050 lumens or 27 FL
2.35 74 x 132 - mid zoom, because of bigger area, still 21' throw, lumen output 1,250 or 18 FL

A Lens method

16x9: 56 x 100 - nearly full telephoto, again assuming 15% or so drop in brightness to 1,050 lumens or 27 FL
2.35 56 x 132 - nearly full telephoto, again assuming 15% drop to 1,050 or 20 FL -- (probably 5-10% lower, because of light loss with A-lens, bringing it to about 18-19 FL).

So, it seems like that unless I'm missing something in my calculations, I'm coming up with the zoom method being essentially equal to the A lens method in terms of brightness (I know there could be a separate performance issue in terms of unused resolution in zoom method).

Now, if my math is correct, then I think it's because at 16:9 and using the anamorphic lens, I'm getting the 15% or so penalty of being near full telephoto, and when I use the zoom method for what is essentially a 74 x 132" 16x9 screen, it will move to a mid lens position, which avoids the 15% or so (plus A lens light loss) hit in brightness.

So, do my numbers look correct? Am I correct that in a near max throw situation with the Sony, that from an FL perspective, the zoom and A lens methods are essentially equal?
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post #4331 of 4777 Old 01-05-2015, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Help me with my math, when trying to decide whether to go with zoom method vs. A lens. This would be with a 600ES.

First, I'm making an assumption of 1,250 calibrated at mid zoom (splitting difference between projector central and projector reviews -- actually a little closer to the lower projector central numbers). I know it's possible that the number could be a hair lower, but for relative calculations, I had to make an assumption.

For this exercise, I'm assuming a 1.0 gain screen, like maybe the Seymour XD 2.35 -- 132" wide (I might ultimately go with a different material/manufacturer). Also, I will be near max throw, at 21'.

Zoom method:

16x9: 56 x 100 - nearly full telephoto, so assuming 15% or so drop in brightness to 1,050 lumens or 27 FL
2.35 74 x 132 - mid zoom, because of bigger area, still 21' throw, lumen output 1,250 or 18 FL

A Lens method

16x9: 56 x 100 - nearly full telephoto, again assuming 15% or so drop in brightness to 1,050 lumens or 27 FL
2.35 56 x 132 - nearly full telephoto, again assuming 15% drop to 1,050 or 20 FL -- (probably 5-10% lower, because of light loss with A-lens, bringing it to about 18-19 FL).

So, it seems like that unless I'm missing something in my calculations, I'm coming up with the zoom method being essentially equal to the A lens method in terms of brightness (I know there could be a separate performance issue in terms of unused resolution in zoom method).

Now, if my math is correct, then I think it's because at 16:9 and using the anamorphic lens, I'm getting the 15% or so penalty of being near full telephoto, and when I use the zoom method for what is essentially a 74 x 132" 16x9 screen, it will move to a mid lens position, which avoids the 15% or so (plus A lens light loss) hit in brightness.

So, do my numbers look correct? Am I correct that in a near max throw situation with the Sony, that from an FL perspective, the zoom and A lens methods are essentially equal?
Looks about right. I would go with the lens for convienience and dealing with variable aspect movies. Then if down that road hope for some gain in light output in your specific setup and possibly better contrast using midzoom rather than tele plus denser pixelcount and vice versa hope that geometric distortion isnt bothersome and that the lens is good enough it wont throw away sharpness and ANSI CR. I have no real experience with lenses unfortunately, wish I did, but from what I have picked up through reseaerch thats the considerations to evaluate. Personally I would very much like a demo of a 500/600es with a-lens!
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post #4332 of 4777 Old 01-05-2015, 07:39 AM
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Looks about right. I would go with the lens for convienience and dealing with variable aspect movies. Then if down that road hope for some gain in light output in your specific setup and possibly better contrast using midzoom rather than tele plus denser pixelcount and vice versa hope that geometric distortion isnt bothersome and that the lens is good enough it wont throw away sharpness and ANSI CR. I have no real experience with lenses unfortunately, wish I did, but from what I have picked up through reseaerch thats the considerations to evaluate. Personally I would very much like a demo of a 500/600es with a-lens!
I'm looking at the zoom method as a stop gap (cost reasons) and then eventually adding an Isco or Xeit or such A lens, possibly when I upgrade to automatic masking, improved sound system, etc.

House construction and HT construction costs are making me count every penny when it comes to what equipment I put in the room initially.
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post #4333 of 4777 Old 01-05-2015, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
I'm looking at the zoom method as a stop gap (cost reasons) and then eventually adding an Isco or Xeit or such A lens, possibly when I upgrade to automatic masking, improved sound system, etc.

House construction and HT construction costs are making me count every penny when it comes to what equipment I put in the room initially.
Thats a sensible way to do it. Perhaps you can get a demonstration somewhere in the meantime?
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post #4334 of 4777 Old 01-05-2015, 07:57 AM
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Thats a sensible way to do it. Perhaps you can get a demonstration somewhere in the meantime?
I can, I just can't necessarily match my screen size/throw, so that's why I'm trying to make sure my math is right when comparing the two options.
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post #4335 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 07:09 AM
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Help me with my math, when trying to decide whether to go with zoom method vs. A lens. This would be with a 600ES.
You may want to read this article by Ron Jones. Be sure to read the response by ozvids, an excerpt follows:

Quote:
The most lossless lens I've ever seen is Tony Drummetts crystalmorphic lens from australia.. it's a 5 element cylinder lens, the only one of it's kind in the world. you 'could' put that infront of a 4K projector but anything else will turn the pixels pretty much to mush, even the 4 element isco lenses can't resolve 4K, really nothing can, the resolution is just too fine. The crystalmorphic lens has tighter specs than all the others and it's recent refinement was all about 4K.
If this reader knows what he is talking about then it would appear one would need the crystalmorphic lens for 4K content. Researching the zoom vs. lens for my VW600, currently using the zoom method.
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post #4336 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 12:33 PM
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A question to owners - when I look at the front lens element while projecting bright image, it seems as though there is some haze on the inside of the glass. Is that normal?
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post #4337 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 12:42 PM
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A question to owners - when I look at the front lens element while projecting bright image, it seems as though there is some haze on the inside of the glass. Is that normal?
I can't speak for the 600, but every projector I've had at work or home, has always had a bit of a haze look when you look at it while it's on.
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post #4338 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 12:42 PM
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A question to owners - when I look at the front lens element while projecting bright image, it seems as though there is some haze on the inside of the glass. Is that normal?


I would like to point out that when watching projector, you should be facing the other way.


Seriously, I wouldn't worry about that. And some dust on the lens quit freaking me out about 10 years ago too.

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post #4339 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 12:56 PM
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The answer was one google away: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w0BhhDpV3jM/maxresdefault.jpg
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post #4340 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 02:05 PM
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A question to owners - when I look at the front lens element while projecting bright image, it seems as though there is some haze on the inside of the glass. Is that normal?
Yes, it's absolutely normal. Even when you go to the cinema, you can see the 'haze' on the projection window. Nothing to worry about.
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post #4341 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 04:09 PM
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I'm looking at the zoom method as a stop gap (cost reasons) and then eventually adding an Isco or Xeit or such A lens, possibly when I upgrade to automatic masking, improved sound system, etc.

House construction and HT construction costs are making me count every penny when it comes to what equipment I put in the room initially.

I know own 3 different 2.35 screens, 2 are using 4K projectors - VW1100, VW500, the other a VW95ES. The 4K screens are a ST130 138" and 126" Screen Innovations Ref. The 1100 I've had since release as a 1000 and switched it to the 2.35 screen approx 4 months after buying it. I've used zoom mode for all manner of cinemascope source material up to films from the X10 player. I serious would not entertain going to the effort for any perceived benefit on swapping to a suitable 4K capable anamorphic lens on any of my projectors, even with my old but low lamp hour VW95ES on the 128" Seymour which was the most recent screen swap to 2.35 that I had some reservations about vs my 4K projectors until I checked out the results.


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post #4342 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 07:12 PM
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I would like to point out that when watching projector, you should be facing the other way.


Seriously, I wouldn't worry about that. And some dust on the lens quit freaking me out about 10 years ago too.
Dust on the lens still freaks me out. I use can of air often to blow it off and keep it new. I had a friend who smokes and in his home theater and I don't know what prompted me to look at the lens but when I did it looked like there was a thin film of oil mixed with dust. I admit that I don't think there was any perceivable loss of quality but the experience has traumatized me.

I also use face masks that Japanese people always wear as filters for my projectors.
It is amazing how much crap those things catch. I like to prevent dust blobs no matter how remote as much as possible and keep my projectors as new as possible too. I do compensate the slight restriction in air flow by running the fan higher. As the noise doesn't bother me at all.

I use them on my VW500ES and my RS57. No dust blobs for me, no sir!

This all came about when my girl dropped her makeup kit thingy whatever near my projector and watched a bunch of fine makeup dust in the air. Luckily the projector was off but that freaked me out.
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post #4343 of 4777 Old 01-06-2015, 07:46 PM
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I always seem to come up with a solution. While I am totally in favor of girlfriends and their thingies, if the possibility of a girlfriend's make up kit being dropped in your HT freaks you out, I would search for a new girl friend who didn't have a need to wear makeup.
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I updated to 1.1 firmware and still cannot connect my 600 to Image Director 3. I am using a USB cable.
Any ideas?


Thanks
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I always seem to come up with a solution. While I am totally in favor of girlfriends and their thingies, if the possibility of a girlfriend's make up kit being dropped in your HT freaks you out, I would search for a new girl friend who didn't have a need to wear makeup.
It's such a rarity these days for a girl to be natural, but she is Japanese and it's practically customary, especially in kimono.

As for Image Director 3 I downloaded it and played with it but I fail to see the point of the program. I am unable to edit any curves. It can read it from the projector but the editing is greyed out. I used a network cable from the projector to the laptop. For some reason it wouldn't work connected to the router.
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post #4346 of 4777 Old 01-07-2015, 05:15 AM
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It's such a rarity these days for a girl to be natural, but she is Japanese and it's practically customary, especially in kimono.

As for Image Director 3 I downloaded it and played with it but I fail to see the point of the program. I am unable to edit any curves. It can read it from the projector but the editing is greyed out. I used a network cable from the projector to the laptop. For some reason it wouldn't work connected to the router.
Is it a free program? Ok so just a network cable directly into it.
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post #4347 of 4777 Old 01-07-2015, 05:17 AM
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Is it a free program? Ok so just a network cable directly into it.

Yeah it is a free program, I downloaded it from www.sony.jp under the support section for projectors:

http://www.sony.jp/support/projector...or3/index.html

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post #4348 of 4777 Old 01-07-2015, 05:20 AM
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Yeah it is a free program, I downloaded it from www.sony.jp under the support section for projectors:

http://www.sony.jp/support/projector...oad/index.html
Thanks.

I can try it tonight. Wouldnt mind tweaking the gamma a bit if only it works.
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post #4349 of 4777 Old 01-07-2015, 05:21 AM
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No problem, if you can actually get it to edit the gamma that would be fantastic. I tried it for a few minutes and gave up.
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post #4350 of 4777 Old 01-07-2015, 05:31 AM
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No problem, if you can actually get it to edit the gamma that would be fantastic. I tried it for a few minutes and gave up.
Ok. I see all the projectors listed there though.
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