Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 169 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5041 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Balthazar2k4 View Post
That's good/bad news. Glad to hear that we should be good on the bandwidth front, but am a bit disappointed by the confirmation of REC.709 only.

Thanks for the nifty cheat sheet.

That all being said, does anyone (barring Barco, Christie, DPI) make a 4K projector with REC.2020 support?
There are no consumer displays that can do REC2020. I don't just mean projectors, I mean flat panel TVs too. What we'll be seeing at first on UHD blu-ray is DCI-P3 color gamut and/or possibly REC709 content to begin with on the first few titles. We won't be getting REC2020 for a while. We still need displays capable of REC2020 before that can happen and content that's actually capturing a color gamut this large. If you check the $20000+ forum there is a thread about a new commercial cinema projector which uses direct laser illumination and can do REC2020, the first of it's kind. It will be many years before you see REC2020 become a mainstream feature on economically sensible displays.

The only projector out right now that is native 4K/UHD, has support for P3 color space, and has enough bandwidth and HDCP 2.2 to faithfully reproduce UHD bluray is the Sony VPL-VW1100ES, though I suspect we'll be getting 2-3 more projectors this fall when they're announced at CEDIA.

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post #5042 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There are no consumer displays that can do REC2020. I don't just mean projectors, I mean flat panel TVs too. What we'll be seeing at first on UHD blu-ray is DCI-P3 color gamut and/or possibly REC709 content to begin with on the first few titles. We won't be getting REC2020 for a while. We still need displays capable of REC2020 before that can happen and content that's actually capturing a color gamut this large. If you check the $20000+ forum there is a thread about a new commercial cinema projector which uses direct laser illumination and can do REC2020, the first of it's kind. It will be many years before you see REC2020 become a mainstream feature on economically sensible displays.

The only projector out right now that is native 4K/UHD, has support for P3 color space, and has enough bandwidth and HDCP 2.2 to faithfully reproduce UHD bluray is the Sony VPL-VW1100ES, though I suspect we'll be getting 2-3 more projectors this fall when they're announced at CEDIA.
Thanks Seegs108. Simply confirms that I should have bought the 1100ES

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post #5043 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There are no consumer displays that can do REC2020. I don't just mean projectors, I mean flat panel TVs too. What we'll be seeing at first on UHD blu-ray is DCI-P3 color gamut and/or possibly REC709 content to begin with on the first few titles. We won't be getting REC2020 for a while. We still need displays capable of REC2020 before that can happen and content that's actually capturing a color gamut this large. If you check the $20000+ forum there is a thread about a new commercial cinema projector which uses direct laser illumination and can do REC2020, the first of it's kind. It will be many years before you see REC2020 become a mainstream feature on economically sensible displays.
I don't even think there is any content being made/filmed with rec. 2020 is there?

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post #5044 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 11:04 AM
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I don't even think there is any content being made/filmed with rec. 2020 is there?
I don't know if there are any popular/mass-available cameras that can capture REC2020. I think the closest out there right now is the Sony F65. Don't quote me though as I don't really follow the camera/recording device scene.



REC2020 is a bit larger than the F65's "S-Gamut" especially in the direction of green.
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post #5045 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 11:24 AM
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I did realize how much larger "print film" (which I assume is analog 35mm) is compared to DCI.

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post #5046 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 11:37 AM
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If you want to get really confused, here's a ton of gamuts you can compare:




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post #5047 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 11:49 AM
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Funny how some of them go out of visible color.

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post #5048 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 12:22 PM
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DPI claims "close" to 2020 on the Insight 4K LED.
http://www.digitalprojection.com/dp-...nsight-led-4k/

You may have to sell your house though to buy one.

Unless you need a projector right now, I'd just sit tight and see what comes out this fall. There should be options below the VW1100 price point that are 4K with at least P3 (most likely "implemented" gamut for UHD BD) gamut.

One thing I think is important to realize about Rec2020, is I don't think it's really important than anything actually gets all the way there. What I mean is, think of it like a protocol. HDMI 2.0 has bandwidth to 18Gbps, but nothing really needs all of it. The important thing with Rec 2020 is that it's big enough to support just about any practical gamut that comes up, and with SMPTE 2086, that can be mapped appropriately to whatever a display is capable of. So we won't have a situation like Blu-ray where it was spec'd out early on with 709 because that's what TVs were capable of, only to be handicapped and unable to use full DCI masters for the life of the format.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen

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post #5049 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 01:07 PM
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Thanks Seegs108. Simply confirms that I should have bought the 1100ES
Movie theaters have been DCI for many years and yet I don't recall ever seeing a post on AVS, saying how the colors at the theater look so much better than what I get at home.

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post #5050 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 01:11 PM
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I will just say the color from rec 610 to rec 709 was rather significant and noticeable to my eyes. That was one of the largest improvements of going to HD. I'm not sure if going from rec 709 to DCI-P3 will be of the same magnitude or not.

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post #5051 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 01:16 PM
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Movie theaters have been DCI for many years and yet I don't recall ever seeing a post on AVS, saying how the colors at the theater look so much better than what I get at home.
Mike, I wasn't being serious. I love the VW600ES and am comfortable with my decision in purchasing it (Thanks again BTW). I just want to be ready for 4K BD so I can FINALLY take advantage of owning a 4K projector.
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post #5052 of 5178 Old 05-05-2015, 02:09 PM
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Movie theaters have been DCI for many years and yet I don't recall ever seeing a post on AVS, saying how the colors at the theater look so much better than what I get at home.

I have posted that statement several times in various projector threads. for what it's worth, P3 is much more noticeable than going from 601 to 709. The changes are dramatic in the reds and yellows but the only reason for so much chatter is what the potential increase is rather than any perceived deficiencies in rec 709. The vast majority of consumers thing their sets display every color visible to the human eye already.

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post #5053 of 5178 Old 05-09-2015, 08:26 PM
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Hi guys,
A quick question. I understand that playing games on 600es with high frame rate is not that pleasant since it has to convert it into 4k. But, what if we do the conversion of 4k on GPU? Say Nvidia 980 SLI. Benchmarks on SLI 980 shows great performance even for 4K resolution. Has anyone tried this option? It doesn't have to be 980 SLI. I'm wondering if anyone tried to do 4k conversion on GPU and got 60 fps on the projector?
thx.
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post #5054 of 5178 Old 05-09-2015, 11:13 PM
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Hi guys,
A quick question. I understand that playing games on 600es with high frame rate is not that pleasant since it has to convert it into 4k. But, what if we do the conversion of 4k on GPU? Say Nvidia 980 SLI. Benchmarks on SLI 980 shows great performance even for 4K resolution. Has anyone tried this option? It doesn't have to be 980 SLI. I'm wondering if anyone tried to do 4k conversion on GPU and got 60 fps on the projector?
thx.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1499082-vpl-vw1000es-htpc-4k-native-rez.html

This thread will assist you as well. Essentially if you have the gpu grunt, 4K games would be superb visually. However it's also worth noting in-game framerate is not a direct tie to display refresh rate. Otherwise 1080P 60Hz video would look terrible also on the 600 and 1100. Same applies for a ps4 game that manages a high frame rate. The scalers in the 600 and 1100 are superb at what they can do with 1080P of all varieties.

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post #5055 of 5178 Old 05-10-2015, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
http://www.avsforum.com/#/forumsite/...1499082?page=1

This thread will assist you as well. Essentially if you have the gpu grunt, 4K games would be superb visually. However it's also worth noting in-game framerate is not a direct tie to display refresh rate. Otherwise 1080P 60Hz video would look terrible also on the 600 and 1100. Same applies for a ps4 game that manages a high frame rate. The scalers in the 600 and 1100 are superb at what they can do with 1080P of all varieties.
The link took me to main page of AVSForum. I think you meant to provide some other link?
I hooked up everything and when I am using HDMI to display on projector, I do get option to increase resolution to 4k but refresh rate shows only up to 30 hz (instead 60). Any idea why?
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post #5056 of 5178 Old 05-10-2015, 05:36 PM
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The link took me to main page of AVSForum. I think you meant to provide some other link?
I hooked up everything and when I am using HDMI to display on projector, I do get option to increase resolution to 4k but refresh rate shows only up to 30 hz (instead 60). Any idea why?
Sorry man, trying to copy the link on a smartphone caused that. Here's the proper link I would have sent from PC: VPL-VW1000ES and HTPC at 4k (native rez) . The thread has a 4K video focus, but I know several owners there are into HTPC gaming and from memory have written about it in that thread. Otherwise its a good place to ask guys like Zombie10k about it, who I know have dabbled in it.

That is completely odd if you're talking having the projector hooked up directly to PC. Are you definitely going direct or routing via an AVR or AVP? I need to do that in all of my system for example to pass through sound from the PC via HDMI.

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post #5057 of 5178 Old 05-10-2015, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Hi guys,
A quick question. I understand that playing games on 600es with high frame rate is not that pleasant since it has to convert it into 4k. But, what if we do the conversion of 4k on GPU? Say Nvidia 980 SLI. Benchmarks on SLI 980 shows great performance even for 4K resolution. Has anyone tried this option? It doesn't have to be 980 SLI. I'm wondering if anyone tried to do 4k conversion on GPU and got 60 fps on the projector?
thx.
Huh? Gaming on the 350/600ES Projectors is incredible. You dont HAVE to run 4k. 1080p content is just fine. The upscaling you are talking about is done anyway inside the unit if you feed it anything under a 4k signal and its incredibly effective.

I have done some gaming at 4k too and its great, GTAV looks ridiculous at that res, albeit you wont get 60fps with a single video card, and I got news for you, you don't need 60fps to have a fantastic gaming experience that's just fluff, you do need to be running 60hz though, the FPS between 30 and 60 will be fine even if its not holding rock steady. Running it in 1080p with supersampling is probably the best bet if you have a lesser video card, its the best of all worlds.

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post #5058 of 5178 Old 05-10-2015, 06:49 PM
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Sorry man, trying to copy the link on a smartphone caused that. Here's the proper link I would have sent from PC: VPL-VW1000ES and HTPC at 4k (native rez) . The thread has a 4K video focus, but I know several owners there are into HTPC gaming and from memory have written about it in that thread. Otherwise its a good place to ask guys like Zombie10k about it, who I know have dabbled in it.

That is completely odd if you're talking having the projector hooked up directly to PC. Are you definitely going direct or routing via an AVR or AVP? I need to do that in all of my system for example to pass through sound from the PC via HDMI.
Thx for the link. My pc is not directly connected to projector. It goes to AVR (which is in 4k bypass since the upscaling is disabled) and from avr to projector. I ran the benchmark on Middle-earth Shadow warrior and it showed me FPS higher than 30. So I'm assuming that all things are fine since I ended up getting higher then 30. But I'll post the question on the thread you provided (thx for that again) and might also bother Zombie10k.
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post #5059 of 5178 Old 05-10-2015, 07:29 PM
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Thx for the link. My pc is not directly connected to projector. It goes to AVR (which is in 4k bypass since the upscaling is disabled) and from avr to projector. I ran the benchmark on Middle-earth Shadow warrior and it showed me FPS higher than 30. So I'm assuming that all things are fine since I ended up getting higher then 30. But I'll post the question on the thread you provided (thx for that again) and might also bother Zombie10k.
Ok, so you're doing what most would do when trying to extract audio on the way through from the PC to projector. So you're getting 4K pass through with AVR, which is a good start. The limitation could still be with the AVR. To test it quickly, take it out of the chain and go direct to the projector eliminate it as the cause. If you still get stuck with 30Hz, its your GPU. I wouldn't assume you're getting a higher refresh than 30Hz. The projector could well be displaying the higher frame rate without causing much drama or it getting the kind of tearing that you'd see on a PC monitor trying to keep up with a higher frame rate. No probs, those guys should be able to provide hands on feedback. I haven't gotten back to a 4K capable AVP just yet until I get my 8802. Even with that said I don't do PC gaming with my HTPC rig, I do that with my dport driven 4K gaming PC stand alone system.

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post #5060 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 07:51 AM
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Huh? Gaming on the 350/600ES Projectors is incredible. You dont HAVE to run 4k. 1080p content is just fine. The upscaling you are talking about is done anyway inside the unit if you feed it anything under a 4k signal and its incredibly effective.

I have done some gaming at 4k too and its great, GTAV looks ridiculous at that res, albeit you wont get 60fps with a single video card, and I got news for you, you don't need 60fps to have a fantastic gaming experience that's just fluff, you do need to be running 60hz though, the FPS between 30 and 60 will be fine even if its not holding rock steady. Running it in 1080p with supersampling is probably the best bet if you have a lesser video card, its the best of all worlds.
The issue is lagging. Since projector has to do the conversion, it takes time to do so and causing lagging. google it and you'll find many links related to it. In fact, I can try to replicate the issue. I can just change resolution on my pc to 1080P and this will enforce projector to upconvert and see if it causes any lagging. It also very much depends on what games one likes. If you like shooting game then even a very small delay will cause issues but its not a very time critical game then we should be ok.

I'll run the test when I get home. My idea was to do the 4K conversion on GPU so that projector won't have to do any convertion and won't cause any lagging issue. Currently having card do the 4k conversion, I have no issue playing game so far and may I say "it looks ridiculously amazing". I have resoultion on 4k and detain in game "Middle Earth the shadow warrior" to ultra. It looks absolutely stunning.

Will update you guys tonigh (tomorrow the latest).
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post #5061 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 07:52 AM
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Ok, so you're doing what most would do when trying to extract audio on the way through from the PC to projector. So you're getting 4K pass through with AVR, which is a good start. The limitation could still be with the AVR. To test it quickly, take it out of the chain and go direct to the projector eliminate it as the cause. If you still get stuck with 30Hz, its your GPU. I wouldn't assume you're getting a higher refresh than 30Hz. The projector could well be displaying the higher frame rate without causing much drama or it getting the kind of tearing that you'd see on a PC monitor trying to keep up with a higher frame rate. No probs, those guys should be able to provide hands on feedback. I haven't gotten back to a 4K capable AVP just yet until I get my 8802. Even with that said I don't do PC gaming with my HTPC rig, I do that with my dport driven 4K gaming PC stand alone system.
Good point. I'll try that.
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post #5062 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
The issue is lagging. Since projector has to do the conversion, it takes time to do so and causing lagging. google it and you'll find many links related to it. In fact, I can try to replicate the issue. I can just change resolution on my pc to 1080P and this will enforce projector to upconvert and see if it causes any lagging. It also very much depends on what games one likes. If you like shooting game then even a very small delay will cause issues but its not a very time critical game then we should be ok.



I'll run the test when I get home. My idea was to do the 4K conversion on GPU so that projector won't have to do any convertion and won't cause any lagging issue. Currently having card do the 4k conversion, I have no issue playing game so far and may I say "it looks ridiculously amazing". I have resoultion on 4k and detain in game "Middle Earth the shadow warrior" to ultra. It looks absolutely stunning.



Will update you guys tonigh (tomorrow the latest).

Hopefully you are remembering to switch on Input Lag Reduction in the menu, in doing so you will get the lag down to around 32ms which is more than acceptable and frankly class leading for this calibre projector..

I don't think you are correct about your assumptions of the upscaling creating any extra lag at all at 1080p vs 4k, the resolution the projector is being fed should make no difference there the lag figures should be the same.

I say this because I have had mine for two months now with my full time gaming pc in the same room permanently hooked up to it along with my PS4 and I have done a lot of gaming on it thus far.


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Thx for the link. My pc is not directly connected to projector. It goes to AVR (which is in 4k bypass since the upscaling is disabled) and from avr to projector. I ran the benchmark on Middle-earth Shadow warrior and it showed me FPS higher than 30. So I'm assuming that all things are fine since I ended up getting higher then 30. But I'll post the question on the thread you provided (thx for that again) and might also bother Zombie10k.

Just to be clear here, you really do need to sort this and get your PC displaying 60hz to your projector. If you say you are currently syncing 30hz from your PC to the Sony, then even though your benchmarks are reading higher than 30fps you are not truly seeing it on the screen.

Furthermore the lag you 'think' the Sony is creating will be magnified at 30hz. At that refresh rate the mouse will feel VERY sluggish, you need to be at 60hz to feel fluid input from the mouse.

Just because some of my games are able to run at over 100fps it doesn't mean I am actually seeing it on the screen. 60fps is the max I will ever see on my screen which is why I use VSync at all times.


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post #5064 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 08:14 AM
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I found that 1080p input + gaming mode + reality creation upscaling was pretty low lag. I would guess 40ms. When I get the rest of my installation done this week I can measure it for you. I have a GTX 980 on the way; no SLI though.

The reality creation does a good job of recreating detail from anti-antialiased 1080p input.

The HDMI inputs on the VPL-600ES are 10.2 Gbps, not 18 Gbps like the full HDMI 2.0 spec. Maybe you can get 60Hhz at 4K if you use lower-bandwidth chromo subsampling.
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post #5065 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hopefully you are remembering to switch on Input Lag Reduction in the menu, in doing so you will get the lag down to around 32ms which is more than acceptable and frankly class leading for this calibre projector..





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No sir. I'm not aware of such option. How can I access this option?

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I don't think you are correct about your assumptions of the upscaling creating any extra lag at all at 1080p vs 4k, the resolution the projector is being fed should make no difference there the lag figures should be the same.
I really do hope that I'm not correct about it. I just spent 1k to get GTX 980 SLI. The only reason I bought these in SLI is to render in 4K. If that is not required then all I need is one GTX 970. That's a 700.00 saving :-).


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I say this because I have had mine for two months now with my full time gaming pc in the same room permanently hooked up to it along with my PS4 and I have done a lot of gaming on it thus far.
Can you explain a bit more about your full time gaming pc and ps4 hooked up with projector? What's your pc specs? What resoultion do you have set on your pc? Have you run any bentchmarks on them (fps?)?

Thx for pointing out the option. I don't know how to access it but I'm excited to try it out :-)

Last edited by SherazNJ; 05-11-2015 at 08:38 AM.
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post #5066 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Pyxle View Post
I found that 1080p input + gaming mode + reality creation upscaling was pretty low lag. I would guess 40ms. When I get the rest of my installation done this week I can measure it for you. I have a GTX 980 on the way; no SLI though.
You won't need SLI if games are being scaled by projector properly. That is the only reason to have SLI IMO.

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The reality creation does a good job of recreating detail from anti-antialiased 1080p input.
What value do you have reality creation set to?

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The HDMI inputs on the VPL-600ES are 10.2 Gbps, not 18 Gbps like the full HDMI 2.0 spec. Maybe you can get 60Hhz at 4K if you use lower-bandwidth chromo subsampling.
Isn't 600ES 2.0 compatible? Honestly, It doesn't matter to me if its 30 or 60 Htz as long as I can play games in 4k smoothly :-) that's the target I'm trying to achieve.
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post #5067 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 09:31 AM
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No sir. I'm not aware of such option. How can I access this option?

I really do hope that I'm not correct about it. I just spent 1k to get GTX 980 SLI. The only reason I bought these in SLI is to render in 4K. If that is not required then all I need is one GTX 970. That's a 700.00 saving :-).

Can you explain a bit more about your full time gaming pc and ps4 hooked up with projector? What's your pc specs? What resoultion do you have set on your pc? Have you run any bentchmarks on them (fps?)?

Thx for pointing out the option. I don't know how to access it but I'm excited to try it out :-)

Well if you have the latest projector firmware it is in the Expert/Advanced menu which is the same menu which you can set your projectors gamma, colour space etc. you can find this menu as a sub-menu in the main settings menu.

I have a GTX 970 with Intel 4970K at 4ghz and 16gb ram.
I run my Pc at 1080p at the moment on the Sony until I get a 4k AVR but have directly connected a number of times to check out flight sims and racing games in true 4k and performance was fine. My PC monitor is a 30 inch Dell display running at 2650x1600 and I can play almost all my games at that res at near 60fps with setting on Ultra.

Enable Input Lag Reduction and you will have significant improvement in gaming response.



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post #5068 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 09:32 AM
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I have a 980 SLI setup and once I get the upgraded motherboard I'll report back. Though that may be a few weeks from now. Right now I'm using a 3440 x 1440 LG 34UM95 monitor and it runs all games with ease with most of the games at max detail settings.

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post #5069 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Isn't 600ES 2.0 compatible? Honestly, It doesn't matter to me if its 30 or 60 Htz as long as I can play games in 4k smoothly :-) that's the target I'm trying to achieve.

Yes you will still get 60hz 4k don't worry about it, your chroma sub-sampling at this res though will be 8 bit 4:2:0 which results in very slight loss of colour and text sharpness but don't sweat it, you will barely notice this from seating position.



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post #5070 of 5178 Old 05-11-2015, 09:41 AM
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You won't need SLI if games are being scaled by projector properly. That is the only reason to have SLI IMO.
I agree

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Isn't 600ES 2.0 compatible? Honestly, It doesn't matter to me if its 30 or 60 Htz as long as I can play games in 4k smoothly.
2.0 is a protocol standard primarily, the bandwidth of the HDMI chipset and cabling is a separate issue. This projector only supports 10.2Gbps (HDMI 2.0 B) which can pass 4K 60Hhz at 4:2:0 8 bit chroma subsampling.

Gaming at 30Hhz will never be smooth.

Last edited by Pyxle; 05-19-2015 at 12:02 AM.
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