Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 187 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5581 of 6200 Old 11-12-2015, 03:25 PM
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I took some preliminary measurements set up the same as in this review.

Quote:
All measurements here were taken with at least 150 hours on the projection lamp in its Low setting. The white level dialed in for the above contrast measurement was just under 16 ft-L, with the Advanced Iris set to Limited and the Contrast Enhancer on Low. The measured black level, using the Klein K10-A, was 0.0003 ft-L. With the Advanced Iris off, the black level increased to 0.0026 ft-L, reducing the contrast ratio to 6077:1—still a respectable figure. In the Full setting of the Dynamic Iris, the black reading was too low to be reliable.

I was happy to find that the black level was not bad at all. Full black screen .001fL limited to three decimal places with ChromaPure software. My gut says .0005 rounded and I can check that later with Klein's own software. ANSI contrast was okay at 0.111 measured from about two feet off the screen. I could lower it by positioning the meter closer but it's all relative. My theater has minimal reflection being totally black including a black velvet screen surround and black velvet surround walls, floor, and ceiling.

I have an OLED in my office so ANSI Contrast has me spoiled.

The 600 has lost luminance but is still okay. I was not surprised that it threw Gamma way off so I left my gear out and I'm going to totally recalibrate tomorrow.
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post #5582 of 6200 Old 11-12-2015, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
I took some preliminary measurements set up the same as in this review.

Quote:
All measurements here were taken with at least 150 hours on the projection lamp in its Low setting. The white level dialed in for the above contrast measurement was just under 16 ft-L, with the Advanced Iris set to Limited and the Contrast Enhancer on Low. The measured black level, using the Klein K10-A, was 0.0003 ft-L. With the Advanced Iris off, the black level increased to 0.0026 ft-L, reducing the contrast ratio to 6077:1—still a respectable figure. In the Full setting of the Dynamic Iris, the black reading was too low to be reliable.

I was happy to find that the black level was not bad at all. Full black screen .001fL limited to three decimal places with ChromaPure software. My gut says .0005 rounded and I can check that later with Klein's own software. ANSI contrast was okay at 0.111 measured from about two feet off the screen. I could lower it by positioning the meter closer but it's all relative. My theater has minimal reflection being totally black including a black velvet screen surround and black velvet surround walls, floor, and ceiling.

I have an OLED in my office so ANSI Contrast has me spoiled.

The 600 has lost luminance but is still okay. I was not surprised that it threw Gamma way off so I left my gear out and I'm going to totally recalibrate tomorrow.
Is this with the iris on? And what ANSI contrast did you measure? And how much did your gamma drop?

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Calibration software: Lightspace and Calman. TPG: Murideo Fresco SIX-G
Meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501. THX II certified.

Last edited by Andreas21; 11-12-2015 at 03:56 PM.
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post #5583 of 6200 Old 11-12-2015, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
I took some preliminary measurements set up the same as in this review.

Quote:
All measurements here were taken with at least 150 hours on the projection lamp in its Low setting. The white level dialed in for the above contrast measurement was just under 16 ft-L, with the Advanced Iris set to Limited and the Contrast Enhancer on Low. The measured black level, using the Klein K10-A, was 0.0003 ft-L. With the Advanced Iris off, the black level increased to 0.0026 ft-L, reducing the contrast ratio to 6077:1—still a respectable figure. In the Full setting of the Dynamic Iris, the black reading was too low to be reliable.

I was happy to find that the black level was not bad at all. Full black screen .001fL limited to three decimal places with ChromaPure software. My gut says .0005 rounded and I can check that later with Klein's own software. ANSI contrast was okay at 0.111 measured from about two feet off the screen. I could lower it by positioning the meter closer but it's all relative. My theater has minimal reflection being totally black including a black velvet screen surround and black velvet surround walls, floor, and ceiling.

I have an OLED in my office so ANSI Contrast has me spoiled.

The 600 has lost luminance but is still okay. I was not surprised that it threw Gamma way off so I left my gear out and I'm going to totally recalibrate tomorrow.
Thanks for getting out the really good pro equipment and measuring. This is especially useful for those of us who have 500/600s with more hours on them. I'm looking forward to youer work on your work on the gamma correction and the issues Andreas asked about.
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post #5584 of 6200 Old 11-12-2015, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Is this with the iris on? And what ANSI contrast did you measure? And how much did your gamma drop?
I measured with several different menu setups. The numbers I posted were with Lamp Low, Dynamic Contrast Limited, Adv Iris Limited.


The ANSI contrast black measurement was with a 3x3 pattern, Lamp Low, and was 10.6/0.111 = 95.5. Sequential contrast was 10.6/.001 = 10,600
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post #5585 of 6200 Old 11-12-2015, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by billqs View Post
I really don't think that's correct. With the number of Sony owners on this forum, many of whom have put thousands of hours on their projectors, I believe we would have noticed if there was widespread "self-destruction of the panels. Just think of how much activity has been generated in the 1000/1100 thread about a demand for a 2nd update of their projectors. These people would not sit quietly by while their projector turns from a Sony into a Viewmaster.
This is correct information, I can almost guarantee that.
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post #5586 of 6200 Old 11-12-2015, 11:49 PM
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Does someone use ultrawide gaming with one of the Sony?s? There are games like Witcher 3, GTA, FIFA 14 or the new Star Wars (even with Dolby Atmos!) which support gaming in 21:9 which must be stunning!

What happen, if you send a 21:9 signal like 2560x1080 or 3440 x 1440 to the beamer? Will it be like a 2,35:1 blu ray movie which you can just zoom out? Or will it be stretched and you have to use an anamorphotic lens?

That was my triple setup with PS3 / Xbox 360 with a total view of 7,5m (www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9C0cjRc82U). With the new consoles, there is no way to use it. That?s why I want to build up a 4k PC. I do have a 2,35:1 screen.

Thanks for your help!
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post #5587 of 6200 Old 11-13-2015, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
I measured with several different menu setups. The numbers I posted were with Lamp Low, Dynamic Contrast Limited, Adv Iris Limited.


The ANSI contrast black measurement was with a 3x3 pattern, Lamp Low, and was 10.6/0.111 = 95.5. Sequential contrast was 10.6/.001 = 10,600
If you have 10.600:1 in contrast with the DI at limited you have lost a whole lot of contrast. If you have a bat cave the ANSI of 95.5:1 is very low. And with the gamma drop you describe it behaves just like the Sonys in the linked post does.

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post #5588 of 6200 Old 11-13-2015, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Here's some rather negative news. Copied from a private forum for THX certified calibrators and written by one of my European counterparts. I have about 500 hours on my 600 but never did measure black level when I calibrated it new, and the picture has remained so good that I haven't bothered putting my meter back on it. Knowing that the 600 never had the greatest black level I've always done my best to ignore it.


An other "big fly in the ointment" is that the Sony SXRD panels "self destructs". After a few hundred hours its black-level is raised quite a lot, the gamma is totally off, and on/off contrast is reduced to half the contrast of a new projector.

The problem is an issue I have observed in a lot of Sony projectors. After a couple of hundred hours, that gamma starts changing quite drastically in the low end of the grayscale, as the projectors black level i raised. Often a default gamma of 2.2 vil measure below 1.8 from 0 to 30-40 IRE, and from there and upward it measures a somewhat correct 2.2. The impact on picture quality is poor black-level, and severe loss of contrast. This is not unique to VW300/350/500/600/1000/1100, but is observed in all Sony projectors. It seams like the optical engine deteriorates over time, with lower light output in the bright end, and at the same time light output in the dark end is raised quite a lot. Often I have to recommend customers with HW projectors to by a video processor, to be able to calibrate a somewhat linear gamma. This will unfortunately not solve the problem with raised black level, its gamma correction only. I usually measure between 6-7000:1 native on/off contrast on the VW1000/1100, and after less than 1000 hours operation, the contrast is refused to less than 3000:1, often as low as 2300:1. All my clients have sold their Sony 4K's, as Sony offer no solution or repair.

Sony has developed a software for calibrating multipoint gamma in their premium projectors, called "Projector Calibration Pro". I tried to correct some of this issues with the Sony Projector Calibration Pro software, but it didn’t work. The reason for this is that their gamma equalizer isn’t working properly. When calibrating gamma, adjustments done at one point in the gamma equalizer, is affecting the points over and under the one that is being adjusted. That way, it is impossible to obtain a linear gamma. I also encountered quite a lot of color banding when using the gamma equalizer.
To make this tool work, engineers have to look at the width off impact each adjustment point affects. This needs to be perfect, so that each adjustment point reaches the next adjustment point, but with no overlapping. Getting this perfect is mandatory to be able to calibrate gamma without generating banding.
I would also like to have a 21-point gamma adjustment possibility. Todays software can chose between 10-point and 64-point. 64-point is very time-consuming, and 10-point is a bit imprecise. One of the reasons I would prefer a 21-point scale, is that most high-end test pattern generators have 21-point patterns as maximum. This has been reported back to Sony engineers, but there still is no updated calibration tool. If it indeed worked perfect, it would of course not recover the loss of on/off contrast, merely correct gamma.

The reason I write this, is so that you guys don't end like I did, recommending a projector that turns out to self-destructs within a short timespan. It does not seem to be any improvement in the upcoming 2016 models either, since they use the same panels as the 2014/2015 models. The newest full-HD panels (for example the HW55) deteriorates much slower than the 4K panels.
This is exactly what I also see on all my Projectors without professional measurement gears. I see a significant lumen drop with every bulb change:

Quote:
Hi Fellows,

I recently changed my bulb after 1300h (10 months) and I wonder if somebody got the same experience like me:

I measured the new bulb with the same equipment and settings::

original bulb with 0 hours: 400 lux
new bulb with 0 hours: 310 lux

The bulb is original form Sony Prime support. It is not the first time, that I found that the replacement bulb's are not performing as well as the brand new, which comes with the projector. I saw this behavior on Sony, JVC projects in the past.

Question: What could be the issue? Do the panels really get so fast "older" and lose light performance?
I also think that the panels get somehow badder over time....
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post #5589 of 6200 Old 11-13-2015, 05:09 PM
 
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Need little help with screen size measurement. I"m using Central Projector Screen here http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony...ulator-pro.htm. My current screen is 145" 2.35 but I screwed up the height a bit. According to the site, for a 145" it should be 56" high and 134" wide but I ended up building 57" high and 134" wide.

But then I recently came across this post by @console here Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread stating that the screen should be build using 2.39 and not 2.35.

Can someone please provide a link that can allow me to measure the screen size using 2.39 ratio to build a 145" diagonal screen.
Thx.

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post #5590 of 6200 Old 11-13-2015, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Need little help with screen size measurement. I"m using Central Projector Screen here http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony...ulator-pro.htm. My current screen is 145" 2.35 but I screwed up the height a bit. According to the site, for a 145" it should be 56" high and 134" wide but I ended up building 57" high and 134" wide.

But then I recently came across this post by @console here Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread stating that the screen should be build using 2.39 and not 2.35.

Can someone please provide a link that can allow me to measure the screen size using 2.39 ratio to build a 145" diagonal screen.
Thx.
Height 56.7"
Width 133.45"

That is viewing size for 145" diagonal 2.35

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post #5591 of 6200 Old 11-13-2015, 05:41 PM
 
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But should it not be measured for 2.39 instead of 2.35 ratio for 600ES?

Last edited by SherazNJ; 11-13-2015 at 05:47 PM.
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post #5592 of 6200 Old 11-13-2015, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
But should it not be measured for 2.39 instead of 2.35 ratio?
Depends on what you want. If using lens memory, there is no right answer. If using an A-lens, then I would go with 2.40. For 2.39 the viewing area for 145" diagonal is:

Horizontal 55.9"
Vertical 133.8"

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post #5593 of 6200 Old 11-13-2015, 06:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Depends on what you want. If using lens memory, there is no right answer. If using an A-lens, then I would go with 2.40. For 2.39 the viewing area for 145" diagonal is:

Horizontal 55.9"
Vertical 133.8"
Thx a bunch Mike.
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post #5594 of 6200 Old 11-14-2015, 05:09 AM
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Guys,

Is it worth stocking up on VPL600/500 replacement lamps now that these units are dis-continued?

I plan to keep my projector for many years so I don't want to run into an issue that these would be hard to comeby. Any advice appreciated.
Please don't worry too much about replacement lamps. Replacement lamps are still available for 10+ year old projectors. I found on Amazon, bulbs for a very low price, for older projectors. My own Qualia is a 10 year old model and even now, I can find the bulbs. They were $3500 from Sony, when introduced. Now I can buy them for $650 - same OEM - thanks to another forum member here, for suggesting it!
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post #5595 of 6200 Old 11-14-2015, 07:15 AM
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And nothing HDR to watch on it for who knows how long ! Or, I could stack another Lumis with mine like the Sim demo and make everything HDR. Set projectors on " Flame Mode " and grab a fire extinguisher !!
Craig - as good as your 600ES is - don't you find your Sim Lumis considerably sharper - objectively via test pattern and/or subjectively via viewing experience?

I just had my 600ES calibrated (by someone well known to these forums) and he felt clearly that the 600 was no where near as sharp - an attribute I crave - he showed me in the test patterns - and which may help explain my need to juice up the Sony sharpness with RC and Darbee.

He also said that the Sony's colors were better (more accurate) than the Lumis.
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post #5596 of 6200 Old 11-15-2015, 05:10 PM
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Craig - as good as your 600ES is - don't you find your Sim Lumis considerably sharper - objectively via test pattern and/or subjectively via viewing experience?

I just had my 600ES calibrated (by someone well known to these forums) and he felt clearly that the 600 was no where near as sharp - an attribute I crave - he showed me in the test patterns - and which may help explain my need to juice up the Sony sharpness with RC and Darbee.

He also said that the Sony's colors were better (more accurate) than the Lumis.

Not on Blu Rays - from my seating distance anyway they both look very sharp. But there are other differences to the picture for sure. I still prefer the Lumis for HDTV ( Dish ). The VW600 just doesn't look as good to me for some reason after over a decade of watching DLP's. Movies are different - watched Lucy last night with friends that had never seen it using the VW600. Stunning as ever !

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post #5597 of 6200 Old 11-15-2015, 08:43 PM
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I've seen a couple of other threads talking about using an HDFury Integrator to help pass HDR information to a projector that might not possess the feature. I was wondering whether this could be used with the 500/600es? Perhaps some calibrating could be done to account for some of the HDR info on the new 4k UHD Blu-rays? I know there are settings for "clear white", "contrast booster and such that seem to alter (but probably not accurately) the visible interscene contrast.

Also, I know that this model projector has no P3 filter, but it does have an expanded color gamut at least a bit higher than Rec.709 as it uses Triluminous Display, which is Sony's version of XYy color space.

Do you think something like this could work? The new models don't seem to be that much different than the 500/600es and being native 4k it would seem to have resolution requirements met.

(Trying to hold myself back from one of the "Brutal Contrast Monsters" that is calling my name with preorder prices.)
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post #5598 of 6200 Old 11-16-2015, 06:06 AM
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Not on Blu Rays - from my seating distance anyway they both look very sharp. But there are other differences to the picture for sure. I still prefer the Lumis for HDTV ( Dish ). The VW600 just doesn't look as good to me for some reason after over a decade of watching DLP's. Movies are different - watched Lucy last night with friends that had never seen it using the VW600. Stunning as ever !
I agree that with 600ES, there is a significant jump in image quality with BluRay sources that seem to subjectively obliterate the clear differences that show up on sharpness test patterns when viewed against a Sim Lumis.

And coincidentally I use LUCY as my go-to show-off disc. It is tack sharp and colors, especially flesh tones, are remarkable.
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post #5599 of 6200 Old 11-16-2015, 07:29 AM
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There is an amazing jump in quality when playing blu-rays through my 500es as opposed to hdtv or tv recordings and rips. This projector rewards higher bitrates and quality mastering no doubt. Picture on blu-rays (like Lucy, Oblivion, Interstellar and others) is so good it sometimes makes me feel like I've discovered the Holy Grail. Then I turn on a TV show I've missed, bitstarved 720 or even bitstarved 1080p and I'm let down- but it's the quality of the quality of the source. So many compromises are made to HDTV bitstreams, some channels more than others, that the overcompression from the Cable Company seems to carry into even more compression from a recording or rip source.

Of course, it has me buying a lot of TVshows on Blu-ray so that I can watch my "stories" and have my jaw drop at the quality of the pic at the same time.
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post #5600 of 6200 Old 11-16-2015, 07:54 AM
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There is an amazing jump in quality when playing blu-rays through my 500es as opposed to hdtv or tv recordings and rips. This projector rewards higher bitrates and quality mastering no doubt. Picture on blu-rays (like Lucy, Oblivion, Interstellar and others) is so good it sometimes makes me feel like I've discovered the Holy Grail. Then I turn on a TV show I've missed, bitstarved 720 or even bitstarved 1080p and I'm let down- but it's the quality of the quality of the source. So many compromises are made to HDTV bitstreams, some channels more than others, that the overcompression from the Cable Company seems to carry into even more compression from a recording or rip source.

Of course, it has me buying a lot of TVshows on Blu-ray so that I can watch my "stories" and have my jaw drop at the quality of the pic at the same time.

I noticed this when I first got my Lumis, and it is true with the VW600 / 1100 - the better the projector, the more ruthless it is showing source material flaws. The other side of that coin of course is really good source material just looks outstanding! Mad Max - Fury Road looks stunning too, as do the ones mentioned by you!

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post #5601 of 6200 Old 11-16-2015, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billqs View Post
I've seen a couple of other threads talking about using an HDFury Integrator to help pass HDR information to a projector that might not possess the feature. I was wondering whether this could be used with the 500/600es? Perhaps some calibrating could be done to account for some of the HDR info on the new 4k UHD Blu-rays? I know there are settings for "clear white", "contrast booster and such that seem to alter (but probably not accurately) the visible interscene contrast.

Also, I know that this model projector has no P3 filter, but it does have an expanded color gamut at least a bit higher than Rec.709 as it uses Triluminous Display, which is Sony's version of XYy color space.

Do you think something like this could work? The new models don't seem to be that much different than the 500/600es and being native 4k it would seem to have resolution requirements met.

(Trying to hold myself back from one of the "Brutal Contrast Monsters" that is calling my name with preorder prices.)
Well that didn't work.
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post #5602 of 6200 Old 11-16-2015, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by billqs View Post
There is an amazing jump in quality when playing blu-rays through my 500es as opposed to hdtv or tv recordings and rips. This projector rewards higher bitrates and quality mastering no doubt. Picture on blu-rays (like Lucy, Oblivion, Interstellar and others) is so good it sometimes makes me feel like I've discovered the Holy Grail. Then I turn on a TV show I've missed, bitstarved 720 or even bitstarved 1080p and I'm let down- but it's the quality of the quality of the source. So many compromises are made to HDTV bitstreams, some channels more than others, that the overcompression from the Cable Company seems to carry into even more compression from a recording or rip source.

Of course, it has me buying a lot of TVshows on Blu-ray so that I can watch my "stories" and have my jaw drop at the quality of the pic at the same time.
Totally agree!!
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post #5603 of 6200 Old 11-16-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Well that didn't work.
You're right... I couldn't resist the clarion call of the JVC RS500 or 600 depending on which I can get my hands on first.

It'll have to be amazing to beat the pic I get on the Sony 500es, but by all accounts it does.
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post #5604 of 6200 Old 11-17-2015, 08:39 PM
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Just got to watch my 500 tonight to catch up on Doctor Who and it was a pristine recording. It looked nothing short of fantastic. The creatures they faced were made out of dust and the Sony was able to make out all the individual dust particles floating around in the air where the charaters were moving.

The new Jvc when it arrives has its work cut out for it!
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post #5605 of 6200 Old 11-17-2015, 08:39 PM
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Just got to watch my 500 tonight to catch up on Doctor Who and it was a pristine recording. It looked nothing short of fantastic. The creatures they faced were made out of dust and the Sony was able to make out all the individual dust particles floating around in the air where the charaters were moving.

The new Jvc when it arrives has its work cut out for it!
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post #5606 of 6200 Old 11-18-2015, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billqs View Post
Just got to watch my 500 tonight to catch up on Doctor Who and it was a pristine recording. It looked nothing short of fantastic. The creatures they faced were made out of dust and the Sony was able to make out all the individual dust particles floating around in the air where the charaters were moving.

The new Jvc when it arrives has its work cut out for it!
And won't it be a fun battle of projectors!
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post #5607 of 6200 Old 11-18-2015, 08:14 PM
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Had another good run catching up with Supergirl on the Sony. Really awesome picture, excellent color, good intrascene contrast. I am waiting for Clash of the Titans now that it's confirmed I'm getting the RS600, the "Brutal Contrast Monster!"
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post #5608 of 6200 Old 11-19-2015, 01:15 PM
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I've got no clue, really. I only went once inside to enable the test patterns when it had three VW500ESs which all exhibited colour uniformity problems. Perhaps if you PM Mark Haflich, he might tell you more. Others, might know, too. I, personally, would suggest to you to stay away from the Service Menu, if possible.

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Hi , thx for the input ! Do u know what is exactly inside the device menu ? I do know W/B is white balance , how abt the other ? I don't touch anything inside yet ! I just changing my VW500ES to VW520ES , and just checking the machine is it a brand new unit ! The hour is exactly the same to lamp hour , so is a brand new for sure ! Thx !
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post #5609 of 6200 Old 11-19-2015, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tangcoma View Post
Hi , thx for the input ! Do u know what is exactly inside the device menu ? I do know W/B is white balance , how abt the other ? I don't touch anything inside yet !!
You need the service manual. You can buy one from true manuals dot com.
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post #5610 of 6200 Old 11-19-2015, 09:14 PM
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Should we be anticipating any firmware update anytime soon? Projector reviews mentioned these models could be getting one, but it wouldn't involve HDR, right?


Ps. I'm sure this was already mentioned somewhere
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