Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 193 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-20-2016, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StanGeek View Post
...

But, like others have posted, once you see the beauty of 4K with HDR and WCG, you just can't un-see it.
There are projectors available that can do DCI color and claim to do HDR (JVC), though implementation is still buggy with just one UHD player having been in the wild for only 2 weeks. I think the HDR/DCI thing will settle out to good results in a little while with projectors capable of it. I think the HDR thing is going to take a firmware upgrade.
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Old 02-20-2016, 08:31 AM
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I own a VPL 600ES PJ, and having a lot of pleasure with it. It's good to know the difference between the UHD disc does not make a difference, so I will not expect it. The fact is that I have a two-screen system, one 16:9, 120" and the other 130", 2:40". My sofa is pretty close to the screens and even with upscaled images I get a gorgeous experience. Will a 75" tv set will give that experience? Will I be able to watch my pictures without black bars?

I prefer to wait till this HDR and WCG thing settles down, with all the existing bugs fixed, required parameters established and future projectors, laser based, more affordable come in hand, so I will be able to upgrade. It's a very subjective matter, but I think the real home cinema experience requires a projector.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:28 AM
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UBD-K8500 with VW600ES

So, I'm having problems with this UBD-k8500 Samsung 4k blu ray player...

I have it running into the projector on HDMI 2. I've tried multiple cables, including a brand new ridiculously expensive 18gbps cable from Best Buy just to make sure it wasn't the cable.

If I run the player at 1080p it looks beautiful. If I change the output to 4k, I get all sorts of display problems. Small vertical lines through the image (even on the menu) appear, and there is SERIOUS banding issues when playing a standard blu ray. I've tried both limited range and full range color outputs.

If I run my laptop into the projector set to 4k, I have no problems using the same cables and everything. Any advice from the gurus here? Seems like a player issue to me because I can't replicate the problem any other way.

Would love some advice! I'm about to take return this Samsung unit which is a shame, because I'm getting some new 4k discs soon and I'll have nothing to play them on!
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lastbeat View Post
So, I'm having problems with this UBD-k8500 Samsung 4k blu ray player...

I have it running into the projector on HDMI 2. I've tried multiple cables, including a brand new ridiculously expensive 18gbps cable from Best Buy just to make sure it wasn't the cable.

If I run the player at 1080p it looks beautiful. If I change the output to 4k, I get all sorts of display problems. Small vertical lines through the image (even on the menu) appear, and there is SERIOUS banding issues when playing a standard blu ray. I've tried both limited range and full range color outputs.

If I run my laptop into the projector set to 4k, I have no problems using the same cables and everything. Any advice from the gurus here? Seems like a player issue to me because I can't replicate the problem any other way.

Would love some advice! I'm about to take return this Samsung unit which is a shame, because I'm getting some new 4k discs soon and I'll have nothing to play them on!
I have the 8500 connected to my Marantz 7010 and off to the 600ES all HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a connections including the cables. None of the issues you speak of are present. I do however receive the "You need to connect to a HDCP 2.2 display. The video will be played in HD.

Not sure what is causing that. Picture is perfect. But I do not know if the projector is receiving a HD ou UHD signal.

Any thoughts there?

I'm sure some of the experts here can help, but for now you may want to verify your receiver is fully compliant. I assume that when you use other 4K sources like the laptop-- you are bypassing the AVR?

In my case, only the Samsung gives me this message. Roku 4, Netflix, etc are all fine.


In my case everything seems to work but the thing may be down scaling. I am not sure.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Finled View Post
I have the 8500 connected to my Marantz 7010 and off to the 600ES all HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a connections including the cables. None of the issues you speak of are present. I do however receive the "You need to connect to a HDCP 2.2 display. The video will be played in HD.

Not sure what is causing that. Picture is perfect. But I do not know if the projector is receiving a HD ou UHD signal.

Any thoughts there?

I'm sure some of the experts here can help, but for now you may want to verify your receiver is fully compliant. I assume that when you use other 4K sources like the laptop-- you are bypassing the AVR?

In my case, only the Samsung gives me this message. Roku 4, Netflix, etc are all fine.


In my case everything seems to work but the thing may be down scaling. I am not sure.
I'm bypassing my receiver (which is not 4k compatible) and going straight into hdmi 2 on my 600es. HDMI 2 is the only one that accepts 4k signal I believe.

I'm thinking maybe this Samsung player is having some problems communicating with the 600es. If it's giving you that message, it's not recognizing the 600es port as a HDCP 2.2 compatible 4k input.

May have to return this guy and hope the next 4k Blu Ray player will play nicely with this projector.

By the way if I have only a 1080p signal coming from the blu ray player (which I think it will default to in your case), its a fantastic looking image. Try running yours straight out to HDMI 2 of your projector and see if you can replicate my problem. Then we'll know.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:50 PM
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Well, the HDCP 2.2 problem persists. Again Samsung 8500 4K player to Marantz 7010 and out to the 600ES. All via 2.0a high speed cables.

I have an Oppo 103D playing the Fantastic 4 in 1080P and the Samsung 4K playing the 4K disc. I can see absolutely no difference. In fact the Oppo may look better--hard to really tell. I hope this Samsung is not really outputting a 4K stream because if it is I have the original box ready to pack it up.

I get the HDR thing but still- No difference?

Does anyone know how to tell if the 600 is receiving a 4K stream?

Now for some brown liquor to drown these sorrows.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Finled View Post
Well, the HDCP 2.2 problem persists. Again Samsung 8500 4K player to Marantz 7010 and out to the 600ES. All via 2.0a high speed cables.

I have an Oppo 103D playing the Fantastic 4 in 1080P and the Samsung 4K playing the 4K disc. I can see absolutely no difference. In fact the Oppo may look better--hard to really tell. I hope this Samsung is not really outputting a 4K stream because if it is I have the original box ready to pack it up.

I get the HDR thing but still- No difference?

Does anyone know how to tell if the 600 is receiving a 4K stream?

Now for some brown liquor to drown these sorrows.
I will try the direct to projector route as soon as I can. Will require some cable management as mine is not easy to get to.
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Old 02-21-2016, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Finled View Post
I have the 8500 connected to my Marantz 7010 and off to the 600ES all HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a connections including the cables. None of the issues you speak of are present. I do however receive the "You need to connect to a HDCP 2.2 display. The video will be played in HD.

Not sure what is causing that. Picture is perfect. But I do not know if the projector is receiving a HD ou UHD signal.

Any thoughts there?

I'm sure some of the experts here can help, but for now you may want to verify your receiver is fully compliant. I assume that when you use other 4K sources like the laptop-- you are bypassing the AVR?

In my case, only the Samsung gives me this message. Roku 4, Netflix, etc are all fine.


In my case everything seems to work but the thing may be down scaling. I am not sure.
You should be able to see the input frequency using the information menu on the projector.

I am curious if your are receiving 4k input, how the picture compares to the standard bluray version? Theoretically even a 2k master used for a 4k disc should look slightly better than that of standard bluray, due to better scaling by the studio.

It may be that we only see a tangible benefit of a 4k disc when the 4k disc is mastered from a 4k source.
I have the Samsung player and lots of discs on order from Amazon right now. I also have the Sony 4k puck, and wasn't impressed enough to mess with it due to the download hassle, 'poor' audio, and screwing with the Sony ipad to access everything. (I've been on the bleeding edge since betamax and laser discs)
edit...several other posts as I was typing this post
Thanks
Paul
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Last edited by PBonn; 02-21-2016 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 02-21-2016, 03:21 PM
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That's not good... Coming from early adopters of this new 4k Ultra HD titles... Thus far, it appears that PQ less discerning on Sony 4k projector compared to 4k Ultra UHD TV... Well sadly only the Sony projectors for now are able to output native 4k... Buy results certainly not very encouraging at this point.

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Old 02-21-2016, 03:40 PM
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You should be able to see the input frequency using the information menu on the projector.

I am curious if your are receiving 4k input, how the picture compares to the standard bluray version? Theoretically even a 2k master used for a 4k disc should look slightly better than that of standard bluray, due to better scaling by the studio.

It may be that we only see a tangible benefit of a 4k disc when the 4k disc is mastered from a 4k source.
I have the Samsung player and lots of discs on order from Amazon right now. I also have the Sony 4k puck, and wasn't impressed enough to mess with it due to the download hassle, 'poor' audio, and screwing with the Sony ipad to access everything. (I've been on the bleeding edge since betamax and laser discs)
edit...several other posts as I was typing this post
Thanks
Paul
Indeed. I checked and the stream is 3840x2160/24p.

I suppose you may be correct. The Fantastic 4 is a 4K disc mastered from a 2 k source. Possibly a 4K source to a 4K disc will be better?

Which of the upcoming Disc's are 4K mastered?
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Old 02-21-2016, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finled View Post
Indeed. I checked and the stream is 3840x2160/24p.

I suppose you may be correct. The Fantastic 4 is a 4K disc mastered from a 2 k source. Possibly a 4K source to a 4K disc will be better?

Which of the upcoming Disc's are 4K mastered?
Not many of the first releases are true 4k, I think Sicario may be.
I have recently fed my projector 4k+ photos from my 4k laptop, and the detail is phenomenal...with my eyes (I will be getting new glasses in March) I have to get within a few feet of my 110" screen to read the computer menus, which are resolved quite well, but small.
I'm hoping some of the new discs will be worth a look on our projectors, even if we don't get expanded colors and 'different' brightness/contrast. ( I can't get my mind around how a new format can somehow improve contrast if we are already seeing full dark and full bright...my eyes can hardly adjust to what our projector does now, vs. something many times brighter)
Paul
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:48 PM
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If you know what you're doing... There are convergence settings in the service menu which could be used to reduce the amount of adjustment necessary in the regular convergence menu.

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I'm having the same issue; blue convergence has gotten worse over the year I have owned the projector. Started at V-20, now have to be at H10 V-30, and V-40 would probably be better. Red convergence is still the same as when I got it.
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Old 02-22-2016, 06:38 AM
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I've read a couple users say that the new UHD Blu Rays don't look any better than upscaled 4k on this projector! True? If so, that is kind of a mixed bag. It means that we've been watching upscaled 4K that looks damn close to 4K! it also means that the image quality isn't really any better with the UHD discs!

I have Hancock UHD here (a true 4K movie) but won't be seeing the samsung K8500 for at least 2 weeks (probably longer).
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Finled View Post
Well, the HDCP 2.2 problem persists. Again Samsung 8500 4K player to Marantz 7010 and out to the 600ES. All via 2.0a high speed cables.

I have an Oppo 103D playing the Fantastic 4 in 1080P and the Samsung 4K playing the 4K disc. I can see absolutely no difference. In fact the Oppo may look better--hard to really tell. I hope this Samsung is not really outputting a 4K stream because if it is I have the original box ready to pack it up.

I get the HDR thing but still- No difference?

Does anyone know how to tell if the 600 is receiving a 4K stream?

Now for some brown liquor to drown these sorrows.
Hi. You may have missed some of the earlier posts that comment on this problem.

The picture quality will not change much for you between the Oppo and the Samsung player. As you mentioned, the output of the Oppo may produce a better picture. This Sony projector does an amazing job at upscaling HD blurays. So good in fact, that when you actually feed it a UHD Blu-ray signal, it does not look that much different.

Since this projector is not capable of the two other major elements of UHD Blu-rays (HDR and wide color gamut/range), no real difference is noticeable for you (or me). For that reason, I sold my 500ES just a few days ago. It was sad, but the difference in picture I see with HDR and WCG are just as amazing as comparing SD and HD.

May be that you need more of the brown liquor to accept this fact.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:23 AM
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Indeed. I checked and the stream is 3840x2160/24p.

I suppose you may be correct. The Fantastic 4 is a 4K disc mastered from a 2 k source. Possibly a 4K source to a 4K disc will be better?

Which of the upcoming Disc's are 4K mastered?
Your picture quality will not be very different with this projector. It is not a problem with the source. The Sony 500/600ES is just not capable of rendering the HDR and WCG elements that really make the picture dazzle.

The message that you see on some of the recent Fox titles is one I see also with my Denon in the mix. It should only be when the Fox logo clip is playing. After that point, the HDMI / HDCP handshake completes and you are getting the full UHD stream to the Sony.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post
I've read a couple users say that the new UHD Blu Rays don't look any better than upscaled 4k on this projector! True? If so, that is kind of a mixed bag. It means that we've been watching upscaled 4K that looks damn close to 4K! it also means that the image quality isn't really any better with the UHD discs!

I have Hancock UHD here (a true 4K movie) but won't be seeing the samsung K8500 for at least 2 weeks (probably longer).
Yes, sad, but true. As you mentioned, the upscaling has been so good, the UHD image is not really that much different.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:31 AM
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Yes, sad, but true. As you mentioned, the upscaling has been so good, the UHD image is not really that much different.
I'd reserve judgement until more 4K UHD players come out. Lots of folks are reporting issues with the Samsung and 4K TV's, and projectors. Cheap and first to market = beta tester.

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Old 02-22-2016, 08:43 AM
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I'd reserve judgement until more 4K UHD players come out. Lots of folks are reporting issues with the Samsung and 4K TV's, and projectors. Cheap and first to market = beta tester.
That is a good point. I just don't know how to reconcile it with the fact I see an amazing picture on UHD sets that can show the wider color and dynamic range. How would the cheap Samsung player allow for such a great picture on those sets?
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:09 AM
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That is a good point. I just don't know how to reconcile it with the fact I see an amazing picture on UHD sets that can show the wider color and dynamic range. How would the cheap Samsung player allow for such a great picture on those sets?
It isn't working 100% apparently on all HDTV's, and the 4K players are initially set up to communicate things like HDR with TV's, but not projectors. JVC RS500 / 600 owners are having the same issues. In fact, I imagine all 4K capable projector owners are having the same issues with the Samsung. Not just VW600 owners. Since projectors aren't as bright as HDTV's, we need to be able to adjust or perhaps ( at ones discretion ) even turn off HDR in favor of the WCG and higher resolution. 4K BR is sort of a mess right now. Hopefully it's straightened out by Cedia.

Not to mention there are no 4K UHD calibration discs etc. to even calibrate your 4K projector - yet !
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:53 AM
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Does anyone know how to tell if the 600 is receiving a 4K stream?
The Info page of the projector Menu shows you the incoming signal. You should see 3840 x 2160 for 4K.
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:33 AM
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It isn't working 100% apparently on all HDTV's, and the 4K players are initially set up to communicate things like HDR with TV's, but not projectors. JVC RS500 / 600 owners are having the same issues. In fact, I imagine all 4K capable projector owners are having the same issues with the Samsung. Not just VW600 owners. Since projectors aren't as bright as HDTV's, we need to be able to adjust or perhaps ( at ones discretion ) even turn off HDR in favor of the WCG and higher resolution. 4K BR is sort of a mess right now. Hopefully it's straightened out by Cedia.

Not to mention there are no 4K UHD calibration discs etc. to even calibrate your 4K projector - yet !


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Old 02-23-2016, 08:53 AM
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A $ 600.00 test pattern generator is not what most people are going to be wanting. That is the very definition of " bleeding edge ".
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:49 AM
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A $ 600.00 test pattern generator is not what most people are going to be wanting. That is the very definition of " bleeding edge ".
True but you said "no 4K UHD calibration discs etc." and I jumped on the "ect" part. They shouldn't be called calibration discs when all they can do is basic set up.

As to the AVLab TPG, just about every calibrator I know has added the device to their bag. Small, accurate, convenient - It's all I'm using now.

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Old 02-23-2016, 12:20 PM
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True but you said "no 4K UHD calibration discs etc." and I jumped on the "ect" part. They shouldn't be called calibration discs when all they can do is basic set up.

As to the AVLab TPG, just about every calibrator I know has added the device to their bag. Small, accurate, convenient - It's all I'm using now.
You got me there. I guess it will be awhile before we see 4K versions of popular calibration software come out. Should be an interesting couple of years.
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:21 PM
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True but you said "no 4K UHD calibration discs etc." and I jumped on the "ect" part. They shouldn't be called calibration discs when all they can do is basic set up.

As to the AVLab TPG, just about every calibrator I know has added the device to their bag. Small, accurate, convenient - It's all I'm using now.
That is about like saying never. That one almost always comes back to bite you.
Got to cut Craig some slack today. He turned a year older.
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Old 02-25-2016, 03:21 PM
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Uh Oh, was just watching the projector and it went all green. Powering it down and back up returned it to normal, but I'm afraid I have a failure in progress.

I was watching Netflix on the new Samsung UHD player went it happened. Switching to other sources like Directv and Kscape were still green. So, I don't know if the UHD sent a signal that squirreled it and it didn't recover (that would be much better than a failure) or if it's hardware going.
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Old 02-26-2016, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Uh Oh, was just watching the projector and it went all green. Powering it down and back up returned it to normal, but I'm afraid I have a failure in progress.

I was watching Netflix on the new Samsung UHD player went it happened. Switching to other sources like Directv and Kscape were still green. So, I don't know if the UHD sent a signal that squirreled it and it didn't recover (that would be much better than a failure) or if it's hardware going.
My guess is a signal issue, not a projector issue.

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Old 02-28-2016, 03:51 PM
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Ok, a couple questions/thoughts.

On the LED panel in a home theater. As mentioned, everyone has to make their choices, and those of us with front projectors have always made choices and even sacrifices, whether it be lower resolution, less brightness, no windows in the room, etc. That said, I can watch a 75" TV in my living room, which is not an immersive experience. I'll take the 138" diagonal 2.35 over it any day. Not to mention that I've yet to find that acoustically transparent flat panel to put my speakers behind.

About 9 months before I moved into my new house, my Infocus broke and I didn't want to buy a new projector until I knew what I was going to be getting in the theater, so dropped down from a 118" 1.78 screen, to the 70". It was ok, and fine for TV, but when it came to watching movies, it just wasn't in the same ballpark. In the past week, we've watched Salt (UHD), Love the Coopers, Creed, Evererst and a few other movies. There is no way that a 75" TV is going to put you in the movie, the way a big screen does. Watching Everest with the 10.5' wide screen and Atmos sound, makes you almost feel like you are on the mountain.

Anyway, my questions as it relates to the Samsung UHD and our sony's.

1. 4:4:4 vs 4:2:0. Ok, so as I understand it, the 600 will only handle 4:2:0. On the Samsung, the choices are 4:4:4 or RGB. When looking at my Marantz when watching the Kaleidescape, it's sending 4:4:4. So, if the player sends more than the display (projector) can handle, does it deal with it gracefully or is that a problem? Dropping down to RGB doesn't seem ideal.

2. It seems like HDR is handled automatically in the player and there is no option for turning it on or off. However, there is HDMI deep color, which can be on/off/auto. My understanding of this is for color beyond 8 bit. The Sony will only handle 8 bit correct? So, is my safest bet to turn HDMI deep color to off?

As to the one movie I watched, Salt, it was hard to do a good A/B between it and the Kscape version, because every time I switched away from the Samsung, it stopped the movie when it sense the HDMI change. So, I would have to restart and resume, which is a 15 second or so process. My impression watching it and some of the A/B's I did was that the color quality was pretty much the same (some have complained of the UHD's looking "off"), but that there was more detail in some scenes, especially closeups of faces and things like that. You know the whole HD phenomenon of seeing the pores on a person's face, wrinkles, makeup lines, etc. My sense was that more of those facial features and similar details were evident. However, without a good and quick A/B or maybe some good photos of exact same shots, I can't be sure that what I think I'm seeing, I'm seeing.

As has been noted, the Sony is so good with upscaling, that the benefit might be limited, especially when they don't have the 4k DI (that Salt did have from film), but still, since my screen is both large, I'm close and using the zoom method, I'll take any increase in resolution I can get. Beyond the resolution, it looks like UHD is going to bring us more Atmos tracks than on Blu-ray, which is both a bonus and pisses me off.
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Old 02-28-2016, 05:14 PM
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Ok, I just noticed the 600ES manual says it supports deep color, which as I understand it is color greater than 8 bit.

I also read this posted a couple years ago in this thread.

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Originally Posted by jojodyne View Post
I personally do not find the current lack of full bandwidth hdmi 2.0 a big issue - movies for example are 24p, and at that framerate the sony accepts UHD at 4:4:4 or 12 bit deep-color UHD at 4:2:2, both beyond current content specs. The only source of 60p 4K 8 bit 4:4:4 content might be HTPC gaming, there one would have to be content with 4:2:0 - which for gaming I would not mind (For now there are not even graphics cards or dp->hdmi 2.0 active adaptors outputting UHD@60 over hdmi). But most certainly a follow up model will have full bandwidth hdmi 2.0 circuitry.
So, is this correct with the Sony, that it will support 4:4:4 / 12 bit at 24 FPS, which is what the UHD discs are? Essentially, it supports everything the current UHD discs have with the exception of HDR?
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Old 02-28-2016, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Ok, I just noticed the 600ES manual says it supports deep color, which as I understand it is color greater than 8 bit.

I also read this posted a couple years ago in this thread.



So, is this correct with the Sony, that it will support 4:4:4 / 12 bit at 24 FPS, which is what the UHD discs are? Essentially, it supports everything the current UHD discs have with the exception of HDR?
The UHD spec includes 10bit 4:2:0 60p material as well which requires more than 10.2Gbps of data throughput. The 665ES does not support everything that the UHD BD spec includes.
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