Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Looks like 600's shipping to us next week. smile.gif Zombie10K will be getting mine for review soon.

You are a mighty patient person. If I just got mine, you'd have to pry it out of my "cold" dead hands.

Thanks for taking one for the greater good!!
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post #632 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 07:09 AM
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That line is a famous line from a Sony Qualia 004 owner who dumped his obsolete 004 long ago. In those days the Qualia MSRPed for $25K. You left out the word "cold". Please edit your post to insert the word "cold" before the word "dead'. smile.gif

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post #633 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 07:24 AM
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So these are shipping with HDMI 2.0 chipsets in them? I am holding out on finishing my media room until I can get an AVR with HDMI 2.0 outputs on it and maybe even something like this projector.

Seems weird people put a projector of this caliber in a bedroom or just a non dedicated media room for $15K.
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post #634 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

That line is a famous line from a Sony Qualia 004 owner who dumped his obsolete 004 long ago. In those days the Qualia MSRPed for $25K. You left out the word "cold". Please edit your post to insert the word "cold" before the word "dead'. smile.gif

Hahahaha. Let me get that fixed for you!
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post #635 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 07:48 AM
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Evidently 10.2 GBS chips, not the 18 GBS ones which are not available yet. Panasonic makes its own 18GBS chip but has chosen not to share them with other manufacturers..

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post #636 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ThomasBorn View Post

So these are shipping with HDMI 2.0 chipsets in them? I am holding out on finishing my media room until I can get an AVR with HDMI 2.0 outputs on it and maybe even something like this projector.

Seems weird people put a projector of this caliber in a bedroom or just a non dedicated media room for $15K.

And I think the bedroom is short term till his theater is finished. Im in a similar situation. I'll get my 600 (which i got an incredible deal on) this week and my room is two weeks away from being done. I may have to fire mine up as well in a bedroom till the room is done. Kinda hard to let it sit in a box that long.
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post #637 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Evidently 10.2 GBS chips, not the 18 GBS ones which are not available yet. Panasonic makes its own 18GBS chip but has chosen not to share them with other manufacturers..

How do you see that affecting the future-proofing of the 600?
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post #638 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 08:04 AM
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Honestly, that depends on future 4K Bluray standards and I think Sony will use its voting power in the HDMI forum group to make sure the4K Bluray standard is dumbed down bandwidth wise not to make its 10.2 chip machines quickly obsolete. Personally, I think the 1000ES upgrade, the 1100ES, and the 500/600ES should have not been brought to market before 18GBS chips were available to Sony in more than prototype experimental numbers. Such chips are available to manufacturers in small quantities for designing future products.

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post #639 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 09:48 AM
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Will 10.2 even do 4k60 from a PC? PC gaming is really the only content now. I also telecommute on my projector. Typing this on it right now imagining how much better it would look at 4k.
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post #640 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Will 10.2 even do 4k60 from a PC? PC gaming is really the only content now. I also telecommute on my projector. Typing this on it right now imagining how much better it would look at 4k.

At the moment I don't think so because the PC would have to output 4:2:0 and AFAIK current PCs can't do that, because HDMI up to and including 1.4 didn't even support 4:2:0 at all, only HDMI 2.0 introduced support for that chroma subsampling format. But in the mid/long run I think PCs will probably be able to output 4Kp60 4:2:0 to 10.2 Gbps chips. That's a pure guess, though.
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post #641 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 03:23 PM
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WTF?  HDMI 2.0 with only 10GBs?  Is this fact?

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post #642 of 3428 Old 12-07-2013, 06:03 PM
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Yes. Except for Panasonic, the other manufacturers do not have production quantities of the 18 GBs chip. Current Sony 4k product is limited by its 10.2 GBs chip or chips. This is not news, this is not a surprise. At this point given expected coming sources will not limit anything. Of course if 18 GBs were available now, there would be a better chance of higher quality 4K sources. The chip situation now will ensure 4K sources will not be as good as they otherwise could be. VHS trumps superior Beta again but this time it is Sony pushing for the VHS. Of course, the general consumer could care less and even understand it. Its CD, brick wall, perfect sound forever.
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post #643 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 07:11 AM
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post #644 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 07:31 AM
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Pretty minor fixes. But US owners should wait until the update is posted on the US Sony e support site.

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post #645 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 10:01 AM
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This is what it says:

System Software Update

What Does This Do?

This utility updates the system software and projector Provides the Following minor bug fixes: • A noise artifact That May rarely be seen When using the "Mastered in 4K mode" of the Reality Creation (4K upscaling) function
• Maintaining consistent color temperature When switching Between high and low lamp modes

I have a Canadian 500ES, I do not see any option in Reality Creation to select "Mastered in 4K Mode" will have to investigate further now. I certainly see noise with reality creation on with 3D, whether or not it is the same issue
I am not sure. I hope so, this way all I have to do is get the software update.
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post #646 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

I have a Canadian 500ES, I do not see any option in Reality Creation to select "Mastered in 4K Mode" will have to investigate further now. I certainly see noise with reality creation on with 3D, whether or not it is the same issue
I am not sure. I hope so, this way all I have to do is get the software update.
The mastered in 4K option is in the database section of the rc menu. You can choose normal or min4k.
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post #647 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 03:53 PM
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post #648 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jslaw81 View Post

Check this out guys:

http://www.theatermax.com/sony-vpl-vw600es-unboxing-and-review/

That was kind of bizarre. Essentially a sales video, shot on iPhone and apparently uploaded in the worst possible quality trying to "show you guys" the quality of the projector.

And a projector show room done entirely, floor to ceiling, in bright white? Literally the worst possible version of a show room one could dream up for demoing a projector?
Coupled with very dubious pronouncements about the Firehawk screen being better than the ST-130 "despite what everyone says about the ST-130?" (Though, in that nightmare
of a showroom I can understand how someone would conclude a Firehawk screen is "the best," since such conditions would destroy the use of any more neutral screen material).
Maybe those guys do good install work or whatever, but wow that video wouldn't imbue me with confidence.

All that said, I do appreciate the attempt to show some of the features/unboxing of the Sony.
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post #649 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jslaw81 View Post

Check this out guys:

http://www.theatermax.com/sony-vpl-vw600es-unboxing-and-review/

Is there a video of the review or is that coming later?

I saw the 600 at Cedia. It threw a beautiful picture. The true 4K video of carnival was stunning.
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post #650 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

That was kind of bizarre. Essentially a sales video, shot on iPhone and apparently uploaded in the worst possible quality trying to "show you guys" the quality of the projector.

And a projector show room done entirely, floor to ceiling, in bright white? Literally the worst possible version of a show room one could dream up for demoing a projector?
Coupled with very dubious pronouncements about the Firehawk screen being better than the ST-130 "despite what everyone says about the ST-130?" (Though, in that nightmare
of a showroom I can understand how someone would conclude a Firehawk screen is "the best," since such conditions would destroy the use of any more neutral screen material).
Maybe those guys do good install work or whatever, but wow that video wouldn't imbue me with confidence.

All that said, I do appreciate the attempt to show some of the features/unboxing of the Sony.

Don't be a hater. Lets see you do better
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post #651 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 05:01 PM
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Good unboxing video, we haven't too many of these keep up the good work
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post #652 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jslaw81 View Post

Don't be a hater. Lets see you do better

Since we are referencing an all-white room in that video, virtually anyone could do "better" in terms of decor more suitable for maximizing projected image quality.
See the links below my name if you want to see "me doing better" in that regard. (I'd say almost everyone here on this forum has "done better" in terms of designing a room for projection).

As for making claims about screen materials, here is "doing better": A screen should be chosen in concert with the choice of projector, screen size, room, and goal for the viewing experience. Hence there is no "best" screen, only better or worse screen choices for reaching as much of the desired criteria as possible, while minimizing compromises along the way. The Stewart Firehawk represents one way to meet certain goals, for instance, compared to a neutral gain screen, or white screen with gain such as the ST-130, the Firehawk will better meet the desire to maintain contrast in rooms without strict light control, or control of room reflections. This will come at the expense of hot-spotting, lower total brightness, and higher visibility of screen texture, so you should weigh your sensitivity to those issues when employing the screen. In cases where ambient light and room reflections can be more strictly controlled, a screen like the Stewart ST-130 can provide more even screen illumination/wider viewing cone, a brighter image, and generally a smoother screen surface with less visible artifacting.

Whether perfect or not, that's doing "better" in talking about screens.

You may want to say "Well, that's too much, maybe he didn't want to say all that." That would be fine, but then it's not license to make completely misleading, or statements lacking any context, and hence irrelevant declarations about the Firehawk being "just better" than the ST-130. Someone who would even make that type of statement comes off as someone who just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Perhaps the guys in the video are good guys and do terrific instals. I'm just saying, that video didn't portray it.

And, not "hating." It's still fun to watch anyway and the guys try at least to get across their experience of watching the projector. Thank you for posting the video!
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post #653 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Since we are referencing an all-white room in that video, virtually anyone could do "better" in terms of decor more suitable for maximizing projected image quality.
See the links below my name if you want to see "me doing better" in that regard. (I'd say almost everyone here on this forum has "done better" in terms of designing a room for projection).

As for making claims about screen materials, here is "doing better": A screen should be chosen in concert with the choice of projector, screen size, room, and goal for the viewing experience. Hence there is no "best" screen, only better or worse screen choices for reaching as much of the desired criteria as possible, while minimizing compromises along the way. The Stewart Firehawk represents one way to meet certain goals, for instance, compared to a neutral gain screen, or white screen with gain such as the ST-130, the Firehawk will better meet the desire to maintain contrast in rooms without strict light control, or control of room reflections. This will come at the expense of hot-spotting, lower total brightness, and higher visibility of screen texture, so you should weigh your sensitivity to those issues when employing the screen. In cases where ambient light and room reflections can be more strictly controlled, a screen like the Stewart ST-130 can provide more even screen illumination/wider viewing cone, a brighter image, and generally a smoother screen surface with less visible artifacting.

Whether perfect or not, that's doing "better" in talking about screens.

You may want to say "Well, that's too much, maybe he didn't want to say all that." That would be fine, but then it's not license to make completely misleading, or statements lacking any context, and hence irrelevant declarations about the Firehawk being "just better" than the ST-130. Someone who would even make that type of statement comes off as someone who just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Perhaps the guys in the video are good guys and do terrific instals. I'm just saying, that video didn't portray it.

And, not "hating." It's still fun to watch anyway.

So if it was still fun to watch why type up a novel explaining how you can do better. No need for it.
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post #654 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 05:19 PM
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Because the video, while fun to watch, also contained the odd elements I noted. It would be like someone "unboxing" and describing the virtues of a very high end pair of loudspeaker, in small room made entirely of reflective stone tile. About the worst case scenario for getting high end sound out of the speakers. It would be damned odd, and certainly worth commenting "You know...that's not really the best type of room to be demoing speakers..." Same with having an all-white room for projection.

And as for "no need for the novel," Uhm...you just asked to "see me do better." I did that on your request.
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post #655 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

That was kind of bizarre. Essentially a sales video, shot on iPhone and apparently uploaded in the worst possible quality trying to "show you guys" the quality of the projector.

And a projector show room done entirely, floor to ceiling, in bright white? Literally the worst possible version of a show room one could dream up for demoing a projector?
Coupled with very dubious pronouncements about the Firehawk screen being better than the ST-130 "despite what everyone says about the ST-130?" (Though, in that nightmare
of a showroom I can understand how someone would conclude a Firehawk screen is "the best," since such conditions would destroy the use of any more neutral screen material).
Maybe those guys do good install work or whatever, but wow that video wouldn't imbue me with confidence.

All that said, I do appreciate the attempt to show some of the features/unboxing of the Sony.

Not only on the video side, the audio side was just as bad. No room treatment used. Speakers close to the front wall and side walls, reflections galore.

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post #656 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jslaw81 View Post

Don't be a hater. Lets see you do better

His room is much better than the demo room.

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post #657 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 06:00 PM
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Calm down. Its a small NJ dealer trying to drum up mail order Sony projector sales. Many AV Science forum members have purchased Theta products from him and are very happy with his pricing and support. He sells a lot of Aerial Acoustics and is I think is or use to be their number one dealer selling mainly on price. He is not a bad guy, is honest transaction wise and can be trusted to deliver the products he sells at the price agreed to. But I would not consider him a video expert nor one that bases his opinions on seeing and evaluating a large variety of video equipment nor as being skilled in designing home theater rooms for best video viewing. His posts on our forums are designed to drum up business, not to contribute substantively to the discussion. He is not a video substance guy like that. One can't be everything although some in our business purport to be. Its almost desperate times out there for small dealers and many pretend to be much bigger and more knowledgeable than they actually are. This comment is a general comment only industry wise. He is a great salesman but like most salesman you must take endorsements of product lines sold by a salesman with a grain of salt. If you have a problem, he will not abandon you and will try to help in any way he can.

I hope this post doesn't lead to him making another attack on me. I have tried to be very fair in my comments which acknowledge his many positive attributes while being somewhat critical of his video expertise and the purpose of his presence in these threads. It will be interesting to read his review and to see if it is more than just a glowing endorsement recognizing no faults or limitations.

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post #658 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 06:02 PM
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Guys

The purpose of the Video on our web site was for our customers to see a live unboxing and setup of the new Sony VPL-VW600ES. We were testing the new Google Hang out software so they could enjoy this live feed. We had people from all over the world watching as we did this live and everyone who watched it told us how much they enjoyed seeing a product like this being unboxed live for them to see. It also helped people understand how to setup the Sony Z tablet and get acquainted with how to connect it to the Server and how to connect the server to the projector.

The room we used is one my my installers homes which we use for demoing audio and video from time to time and was never intended to be a decorative home theater, its simply a huge room with awesome sound and now awesome video.

Mike Garrett, you make me laugh ! - You mention the room had no treatments like thats a huge deal in a room you've never heard. This room has a Theta Casablanca 3HD in it along with a Theta Generation VIII Dac that I am sure if you ever got to hear gear at this level you would understand why it doesn't need room treatments. The Audio in this room is quite spectacular and yes the Infinity's are old but to hear them in person is awe inspiring. I have not seen your room but i am sure its gorgeous. I wouldn't mind actually seeing it if you can post some pics.

Thanks
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post #659 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Calm down. Its a small NJ dealer trying to drum up mail order Sony projector sales. Check out his website. Many AV Science forum members have purchased Theta products from him and are very happy with his pricing and support. He sells a lot of Aerial Acoustics and is I think is or use to be their number one dealer selling mainly on price. He is not a bad guy,is honest transaction wise and can be trusted to deliver the products he sells at the price agreed to. But I would not consider him a video expert or skilled in designing home theater rooms for best video viewing. One can't be everything although some in our business purport to be. He is a great salesman.

Mark old friend

Thank you for the kind words..

As far as designing rooms go, the rooms I have built over the last 20 years range from 50K to 1.2 million dollars. I have never been a showoff as my customers some of which you all would have heard of simply don't want their masterpieces featured on a web site. We work very discreetly for some of the wealthiest people and they just don't want their stuff published.

Just so happens I have a pretty extensive engineering background and spent many years at the AT&T Labs in Florham Park NJ.

I may not spend my time detailing ST130/VS Firehawk G3 screens like you guys but I can assure you I listen to everything you guys say and most of the time you Mark especially blow my mind with your incredible knowledge and information which you openly share with everyone on this forum. I have no idea how you can have this much time to post such details but its seriously appreciated and your work on this forum helps so many people all over the world including me form time to time smile.gif

I occasionally disagree but i usually fine the logic behind your posts.

Again, Thank you for the kind words and let's keep this thread focused on the 600ES as its intended. My excitement in the video certainly comes through as you and I know that no mater how old we get we still enjoy opening a new toy and seeing what it can do and in this case, I am blown out of the water at this projector and for its price point Sony did a remarkable job.

Thanks
Craig
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post #660 of 3428 Old 12-08-2013, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by VGI View Post

Guys

The purpose of the Video on our web site was for our customers to see a live unboxing and setup of the new Sony VPL-VW600ES. We were testing the new Google Hang out software so they could enjoy this live feed. We had people from all over the world watching as we did this live and everyone who watched it told us how much they enjoyed seeing a product like this being unboxed live for them to see. It also helped people understand how to setup the Sony Z tablet and get acquainted with how to connect it to the Server and how to connect the server to the projector.

That explains some things and I think that's great you did that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

The room we used is one my my installers homes which we use for demoing audio and video from time to time and was never intended to be a decorative home theater, its simply a huge room with awesome sound and now awesome video.

Well...ok...it's not that anyone is demanding perfection. But surely...an all white room would be the worst possible "demo" room for a projector...and a room like that, untreated as it appears to be, would be a very sub-optimal room to demo audio as well. I guess I just don't understand taking so few steps to make a "demo" room more conducive to actually getting good sound and picture, vs about the worst possible scenario.
????

BTW, yours is not the only demo room that has me scratching my head; I've seen quite a number of others by dealers that are also clearly sub-optimal in a similar way, and it's a phenemonon I can't quite get my head around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

Mike Garrett, you make me laugh ! - You mention the room had no treatments like thats a huge deal in a room you've never heard. This room has a Theta Casablanca 3HD in it along with a Theta Generation VIII Dac that I am sure if you ever got to hear gear at this level you would understand why it doesn't need room treatments. The Audio in this room is quite spectacular and yes the Infinity's are old but to hear them in person is awe inspiring. I have not seen your room but i am sure its gorgeous. I wouldn't mind actually seeing it if you can post some pics.

Thanks
Craig

This implies that you think room correction software is a good substitution for room treatment. Do you really think this? I'm just trying to put together the idea that someone who designs multi-million dollar rooms also thinks the room pictured in the video wouldn't require any room treatment for audio or video purposes.

Also, as per your telling us in the video that the Firehawk screen was "better" than the ST-130, do you not think that what makes for a "better" projection screen depends on the goals of any particular system in question?

Again, I love your enthusiasm, you guys may certainly be great at what you do. I guess that some of the issues I see in your video (and now some of your comments) are in that puzzling category I've seen from people in your industry, and it always leaves me wondering..."why?" (e.g., part of my business is demoing equipment...but I'm not going to take steps to
optimize a demo room...so I'm just wondering what the thinking is there.)
R Harkness is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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