Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 76 - AVS Forum
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post #2251 of 3519 Old 03-06-2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bweissman View Post
 

Searched but did not find. Has anyone cracked the secrets of what the Reality Creation settings actually do?

 

I'm damned if I can see any effect at any setting with BDs.

 

Usually the sharpen effect it provides is quite obvious. Try to pause au movie and crank the setting up and then use the on/off option so the projector will switch between the 2 versions. If you are not seeing anything then you might have a problem... This is so obvious it also affects how sharp the menus looks.

 

If you are not seeing that you might :

- be waaaay too far from the screen

- have a focus / convergence / optic issue

- have a software problem

- stuff I did not think of...

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post #2252 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 07:35 AM
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Thinking about getting a 600ES. I downloaded the manual and am a bit confused on how I would align the picture with my 16:9 fixed screen going by the diagram. Did a search here & saw a discussion on it which cleared it up a bit, but not 100% (for me anyway!) Would I basically zoom in till I see the top and bottom horizontal double bars, then zoom out to the 1:78 markings on the screen? Why are the horizontal bars double? Do I zoom out so neither of them is visable?

Sorry for so many questions......
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post #2253 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by TL5 View Post

Thinking about getting a 600ES. I downloaded the manual and am a bit confused on how I would align the picture with my 16:9 fixed screen going by the diagram. Did a search here & saw a discussion on it which cleared it up a bit, but not 100% (for me anyway!) Would I basically zoom in till I see the top and bottom horizontal double bars, then zoom out to the 1:78 markings on the screen? Why are the horizontal bars double? Do I zoom out so neither of them is visable?

Sorry for so many questions......

For my 16:9 screen, I have it so the outermost line of the double horizontal border is off the screen and the inner line is barely on the screen right next to the actual screen border. Essentially, put the border of the screen in-between the double lines and voila.

Also, make sure you set the Aspect Ratio setting to "Normal".....I had mine set to 1.85:1 Zoom when I was first setting everything up, started getting frustrated until I realized it needed to be set to normal (for 16:9 screens).
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post #2254 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 08:31 AM
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post #2255 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

For my 16:9 screen, I have it so the outermost line of the double horizontal border is off the screen and the inner line is barely on the screen right next to the actual screen border. Essentially, put the border of the screen in-between the double lines and voila.

Also, make sure you set the Aspect Ratio setting to "Normal".....I had mine set to 1.85:1 Zoom when I was first setting everything up, started getting frustrated until I realized it needed to be set to normal (for 16:9 screens).

Thanks for the info! Now about the vertical 1.78:1 lines - should it be just inside or just outside the screen border?
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post #2256 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 10:00 AM
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If you disable test patterns, you can adjust zoom, focus and lens shift with an actual source image if you get lost in Sony's lines.

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post #2257 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 10:10 AM
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^. Also, if you have a BD title from Sony/Columbia then load it up, go to the MAIN menu and enter SONY (7669) on the remote keypad. That will take you to the test patterns, select the Resolution pattern and use the border arrows (16x9, 1.78) to set your zoom.
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post #2258 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 10:38 AM
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Interesting. This kind of contradicts most peoples' view on Sony's iris action. Is it really that nitpicky? Is it really as noticeable as Art is making it out to be?

For comparison, It's more perceptible than the irises were in my VW100 or VW85, even on the 600's "limited" setting.

That said, the only time I ever notice the IRIS in action is:
- the closing credits of Game Of Thrones or similar, where instead of scrolling, blocks of credit text are placed on the screen and the replaced by a differently-sized block of text. When you go from a small amount of white text on black to a large amount of white text on black, or the other way around, the IRIS action is fairly apparent (moreso in the foreground text than the blacklevel).
- bright on-screen controls overlayed on a dark scene (as Art mentions)

I found that this is dialed WAY back by using gamma 2.4 instead of 2.2, which i'd been using previously. More impact than you'd expect for that gamma adjustment, given that the black and white are are the extreme ends of the brightness ranges, not in the "middle" where gamma curve actually has an impact. I suspect this is a software implementation choice - gamma probably adjusts certain parameters of iris behavior beyond just "when APL is X, iris value is Y".

To reiterate: I can still safely say that this is by far the most "transparent" display I've ever had the pleasure of owning. In all my years as a home theater enthusiast, I've never been as content with a display purchase as I have been w/ this projector. On every other display, within the first few days of ownership, I've always found some nagging, distracting visual characteristic that was visible on just about any content and was too distracting to ignore. I have no such distractions with this display. It's just a f*****g epic picture that is delightful to watch.

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post #2259 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TL5 View Post

Thanks for the info! Now about the vertical 1.78:1 lines - should it be just inside or just outside the screen border?

I have my vertical 1.78 markers just outside the actual screen border. This causes the picture to "spill" off the screen by a few cm's but it ensures I am using all of the screen width and then some. Also, with the black velvet on most screen borders you won't even notice a couple cm's of overspill unless it is an almost total white scene and you are specifically trying to notice.
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post #2260 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 11:01 AM
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You have done learned good. smile.gif

I'm enjoying my theater soooo much now that I have been absent from the forums lately....trying to make a habit to stop online during work to help people with questions since the solutions are fresh in my mind.
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post #2261 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 11:35 AM
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I'm enjoying my theater soooo much now that I have been absent from the forums lately

That's what it's all about !! Glad to hear it!! smile.gif

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post #2262 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

^. Also, if you have a BD title from Sony/Columbia then load it up, go to the MAIN menu and enter SONY (7669) on the remote keypad. That will take you to the test patterns, select the Resolution pattern and use the border arrows (16x9, 1.78) to set your zoom.

Thanks Wendell!
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post #2263 of 3519 Old 03-07-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by M_Coupe View Post

For comparison, It's more perceptible than the irises were in my VW100 or VW85, even on the 600's "limited" setting.

That said, the only time I ever notice the IRIS in action is:
- the closing credits of Game Of Thrones or similar, where instead of scrolling, blocks of credit text are placed on the screen and the replaced by a differently-sized block of text. When you go from a small amount of white text on black to a large amount of white text on black, or the other way around, the IRIS action is fairly apparent (moreso in the foreground text than the blacklevel).
- bright on-screen controls overlayed on a dark scene (as Art mentions)

I found that this is dialed WAY back by using gamma 2.4 instead of 2.2, which i'd been using previously. More impact than you'd expect for that gamma adjustment, given that the black and white are are the extreme ends of the brightness ranges, not in the "middle" where gamma curve actually has an impact. I suspect this is a software implementation choice - gamma probably adjusts certain parameters of iris behavior beyond just "when APL is X, iris value is Y".

To reiterate: I can still safely say that this is by far the most "transparent" display I've ever had the pleasure of owning. In all my years as a home theater enthusiast, I've never been as content with a display purchase as I have been w/ this projector. On every other display, within the first few days of ownership, I've always found some nagging, distracting visual characteristic that was visible on just about any content and was too distracting to ignore. I have no such distractions with this display. It's just a f*****g epic picture that is delightful to watch.

I actually just got back from a local Runco/Sony/Epson dealer. I needed to replace a part inside my Runco autoscope motorized lens sled that I broke. I decided to ask which projectors they had on display. They told me they just got a 600ES about a week ago. So naturally I asked if I could see it. They had it in their mock "home theater room" which was treated for light and acoustics. It had wall scones two rows of theater seats, ect. It was a legit setup perfectly capable to show off the Sony in all it's glory. From what I saw, I would say I only noticed the iris action when there were quick fades to black during the trailer loop they had playing from their 4K server. I don't think the DI is as good as the HW50ES I saw. Now, I only watched about 15 minutes worth of content but that's just the impression I got. I'm sure the many quick fades to black and return to normal APL type shots used in those trailers tainted my view on the DI's action. I kind of felt odd as they sat there and watched me look at the clips and didn't want to wear out my welcome.

They were showing it on a ~110" diagonal 1.78:1 Stewart StudioTek100 screen and the image was VERY bright and had plenty of contrast within the image. I wasn't "blown away" with what I saw but thought the image definitely gave my JVC a run for it's money. I guess I've just been spoiled by the perfectly stable image the JVCs give in regards to scene transitions and intrascene contrast changes. It's definitely a bright projector. From the look of it, the exit lens on the 600ES, even though it's smaller than the 1100ES, is still larger than what the JVC has.Just based on the size of the optics the 600ES has, it's still a decent step up over the JVC's. The higher ANSI contrast I'm sure has its roots through this (still) nicer lens. I'd like to do a side by side type of test to make a real determination on how much "better" the Sony is overall.

I think I would have been even more impressed if the screen were larger and possibly in a scope scenario. Once I started talking projectors they knew I wasn't some Joe Schmo who was simply looking for a big image and knew nothing about projectors. I actually knew more about the projectors that they were selling then they did. But I didn't want to make them feel awkward so I politely kept quite when they made a few wrong claims. They even asked me if I was looking for a job. I laughed and told them I already had one. They later on half jokingly asked if I wanted to sell projectors for them on the weekends haha. In secret, I'd love to do something like that for a living, I just don't think I'd be making as much money as what I'm now doing it. mad.gif At least at a local store like that.....

I can say the image it threw impressed me, but I came away from the experience with a sigh of relief knowing that my JVC is pretty close in image quality to the Sony. But then again, how much of an impression could I have gotten with only 15-20 minutes of demo footage? I may have to go back and take another look....

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post #2264 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I actually just got back from a local Runco/Sony/Epson dealer. I needed to replace a part inside my Runco autoscope motorized lens sled that I broke. I decided to ask which projectors they had on display. They told me they just got a 600ES about a week ago. So naturally I asked if I could see it. They had it in their mock "home theater room" which was treated for light and acoustics. It had wall scones two rows of theater seats, ect. It was a legit setup perfectly capable to show off the Sony in all it's glory. From what I saw, I would say I only noticed the iris action when there were quick fades to black during the trailer loop they had playing from their 4K server. I don't think the DI is as good as the HW50ES I saw. Now, I only watched about 15 minutes worth of content but that's just the impression I got. I'm sure the many quick fades to black and return to normal APL type shots used in those trailers tainted my view on the DI's action. I kind of felt odd as they sat there and watched me look at the clips and didn't want to wear out my welcome.

They were showing it on a ~110" diagonal 1.78:1 Stewart StudioTek100 screen and the image was VERY bright and had plenty of contrast within the image. I wasn't "blown away" with what I saw but thought the image definitely gave my JVC a run for it's money. I guess I've just been spoiled by the perfectly stable image the JVCs give in regards to scene transitions and intrascene contrast changes. It's definitely a bright projector. From the look of it, the exit lens on the 600ES, even though it's smaller than the 1100ES, is still larger than what the JVC has.Just based on the size of the optics the 600ES has, it's still a decent step up over the JVC's. The higher ANSI contrast I'm sure has its roots through this (still) nicer lens. I'd like to do a side by side type of test to make a real determination on how much "better" the Sony is overall.

I think I would have been even more impressed if the screen were larger and possibly in a scope scenario. Once I started talking projectors they knew I wasn't some Joe Schmo who was simply looking for a big image and knew nothing about projectors. I actually knew more about the projectors that they were selling then they did. But I didn't want to make them feel awkward so I politely kept quite when they made a few wrong claims. They even asked me if I was looking for a job. I laughed and told them I already had one. They later on half jokingly asked if I wanted to sell projectors for them on the weekends haha. In secret, I'd love to do something like that for a living, I just don't think I'd be making as much money as what I'm now doing it. mad.gif At least at a local store like that.....

I can say the image it threw impressed me, but I came away from the experience with a sigh of relief knowing that my JVC is pretty close in image quality to the Sony. But then again, how much of an impression could I have gotten with only 15-20 minutes of demo footage? I may have to go back and take another look....


Seegs108 nice mini impression review
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post #2265 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 09:57 AM
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Thanks for the update Seegs. Maybe they will let you bring your own BD if you go back.
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post #2266 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 01:35 PM
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We all have different perceptions and priorities. I upgraded from a well calibrated JVC RS55 to the Sony 600 (on a 120 x 51 screen --- unity gain AT from Seymour) and there was no place (with the possible exception of black level) where the Sony was not clearly superior. Brightness, detail, clarity, color saturation, etc. And while, on paper, the blacks on the JVC are better, it was anything but obvious when actually watching real movies.

Please don't get me wrong - the JVC throws an incredible image. A friend who bought my PJ has it calibrated and it is mind boggling amazing. And at the price point, I don't think anything touches it.

But the real question should be, not is the Sony better than the JVC, but rather at approximately twice the MSRP, it it "worth it". And for some the answer is yes and others, no.
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post #2267 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 01:43 PM
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The extra brightness the 600ES has can give one a grandiose impression. I have a feeling the subjective image quality one can get from viewing a brighter image can distort things a bit. This is the same reason people who view 3-chip DLP say the same things you're stating now. They're just so much brighter and it makes your eyes see things a bit differently. You remark that it has higher color saturation. That's one thing a brighter image can make you think. The same goes for clarity and detail. I'm not saying the 600ES doesn't possess those traits, as I've yet to do a real comparison myself, but I have a good feeling if you were to match the brightness of a JVC that extra impression will lower and come close to the flagship JVC level. The 600ES on a smaller screen will "look" better in those regards to a JVC to most because it's so damn bright. I'd like to go back with my JVC and lux meter and do a little playing around. I'm going to see if I can make that happen.
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post #2268 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 04:51 PM
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I'm enjoying my theater soooo much now that I have been absent from the forums lately....trying to make a habit to stop online during work to help people with questions since the solutions are fresh in my mind.

Good for you! I still have not been able to see the Sony 600 biggrin.gif
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post #2269 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 08:08 PM
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The extra brightness the 600ES has can give one a grandiose impression. I have a feeling the subjective image quality one can get from viewing a brighter image can distort things a bit. This is the same reason people who view 3-chip DLP say the same things you're stating now. They're just so much brighter and it makes your eyes see things a bit differently. You remark that it has higher color saturation. That's one thing a brighter image can make you think. The same goes for clarity and detail. I'm not saying the 600ES doesn't possess those traits, as I've yet to do a real comparison myself, but I have a good feeling if you were to match the brightness of a JVC that extra impression will lower and come close to the flagship JVC level. The 600ES on a smaller screen will "look" better in those regards to a JVC to most because it's so damn bright. I'd like to go back with my JVC and lux meter and do a little playing around. I'm going to see if I can make that happen.


I've heard it said many times on these forums, when comparing projectors for best image quality, you have to match the light output. I for one don't understand this philosophy, it seems logical to me to make projector A look its best and compare to projector B looking its best, then determine which projector looks best to you. If projector A's image is better to you because its brighter or projector B's image is better to you because it has higher contrast, so be it. This idea of "crippling" one projector in order to match the other projector, then see which one looks better to you makes no sense to me. I don't remember hearing someone say, we need to reduce the contrast or black level performance of the JVC to match the Sony or any projector, then compare. If someone has a "grandiose impression" or a higher "subjective image quality" from a projector with a brighter image, then that's what that person likes, why is that distorting things?

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post #2270 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 08:12 PM
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I've heard it said many times on these forums, when comparing projectors for best image quality, you have to match the light output. I for one don't understand this philosophy, it seems logical to me to make projector A look its best and compare to projector B looking its best, then determine which projector looks best to you. If projector A's image is better to you because its brighter or projector B's image is better to you because it has higher contrast, so be it. This idea of "crippling" one projector in order to match the other projector, then see which one looks better to you makes no sense to me. I don't remember hearing someone say, we need to reduce the contrast or black level performance of the JVC to match the Sony or any projector, then compare. If someone has a "grandiose impression" or a higher "subjective image quality" from a projector with a brighter image, then that's what that person likes, why is that distorting things?

Very sensible analysis.
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post #2271 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 09:22 PM
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I've heard it said many times on these forums, when comparing projectors for best image quality, you have to match the light output. I for one don't understand this philosophy, it seems logical to me to make projector A look its best and compare to projector B looking its best, then determine which projector looks best to you. If projector A's image is better to you because its brighter or projector B's image is better to you because it has higher contrast, so be it. This idea of "crippling" one projector in order to match the other projector, then see which one looks better to you makes no sense to me. I don't remember hearing someone say, we need to reduce the contrast or black level performance of the JVC to match the Sony or any projector, then compare. If someone has a "grandiose impression" or a higher "subjective image quality" from a projector with a brighter image, then that's what that person likes, why is that distorting things?

What I'm trying to say is that the eye prefers a brighter image. That's all. And that does give a grandiose view on particular projector. That's why it's important to brightness match. It's similar to the ear, in that, it prefers the louder sound. It's a trick many HiFi stores utilize all the time. I'm in no way trying to say that the image doesn't look better in his theater. On the contrary, I'm sure it does. But, if we were to move to a smaller screen where both images were very bright (25+ ftL) I think most of what he saw as a clear advantage would diminish and because everyone has a different size screen, many of which are a lot smaller than his, and projectors have variable light output I find it extremely important to brightness match when making claims that one projector is definitely better than the other. We need to remove as much variable from the comparison to make accurate claims on each part of what makes up the entire moving image. Not every projector is meant for every application. The Sony prefers larger screens and he happens to have a larger than average screen. He was using the JVC on a screen size which gave him a fairly dim image and that wasn't the best start to make accurate comparisons. Different strokes for different folks. In his situation it did give him a "better" image. A JVC isn't really meant to be on a screen that size because it simply isn't very bright. Obviously the brighter image was going to look better, especially when contrast performance between the two is similar. Like I said the eye simply prefers a brighter image and gives your brain more information to make out things like color (saturation) and delineation (sharpness). When brightness matching we can see comparative sharpness, color properties and a few other things in a truer light and that's when it's okay to say, in most applications, projector A is better than projector B. This is also why it's best when doing a review to give measured performance numbers at various light output modes, color modes, ect, so that people in different situations with screens and room conditions can know what to expect and if the projector can work for them or give them what they're looking for in regards to lumens and contrast.

Let's break it down into numbers. His screen is 42.5 square feet. The RS55 in it's brightest mode with a new lamp is around 900 lumens. Factor in the true gain of his screen (~0.9) and a light loss of ~12% using the Panamorph lens and we only get 16.77 foot lamberts and remember, that's on a new bulb so in all likelihood it was probably even dimmer. Cine4home measured many units and got an average brightness of 1600 calibrated lumens for the Sony. That makes it 156.25% brighter or 26.20 ftL on the same screen. Personally speaking, I think that would make an image look quite a bit brighter, clearer/sharper with more saturated colors. If we brightness matched the two in the same room I just have to think the image would have looked somewhat equal. This would have been a good time where we could have truly gotten a sense of subjective image sharpness and color saturation between the two as there aren't any brightness tricks upon our eyes and we can honestly see a difference in this area if there was one. This is what I want to do if my local dealer allows me to. I want to see where the 600ES truly performs better. I would think image sharpness would definitely have a leg up and I want to get screen similar to the size mentioned above, so it's nice to see that the 600ES has what it takes to faithfully fill that screen size with an ample amount of lumens.

I think Andrew Robinson over at hometheaterreviw.com makes some decent points. This is his review of the 1000ES versus an older JVC:
Quote:
Covering the Sony lens and uncovering the JVC resulted in a performance that was decidedly less awe-inspiring. Black levels were better than when played on the Sony, but colors lost a bit of their luster and, because the light values weren't as pristine, the image appeared to lose its edge. While Ray thought the JVC's performance felt more "movie-like," I didn't like it and immediately requested the JVC's lens be re-covered so that I could bathe in the VW1000ES' glory. But what was it that I was responding to? Was it the VW1000ES' upscaling, or was it the VW1000ES' light output?
A quick check-up on the JVC's light output revealed that it was projecting a mere eleven foot-lamberts at the screen. To ensure a level playing field, we dimmed the Sony's light output by closing the VW1000ES' iris until we matched the two projectors' light output at roughly 11 foot-lamberts. Keep in mind that the THX standard calls for 14 foot-lamberts (SMPTE standard is 11-16 foot-lamberts), which the JVC wasn't able to achieve in this particular setup, but the Sony was. Normally, you wouldn't dull down a projector capable of properly lighting a screen to reference specifications, but since we wanted to test resolution and upscaling rather than light output, this was the best way for us to compare the two. Believe it or not, a lot of what we perceive as increased resolution or a clearer visual experience has more to do with our perception of light and color than it does the number of pixels we're actually being shown.
Beginning with the VW1000ES, the dimmer image appeared less "alive." Colors were still nicely saturated and natural in their appearance, but didn't pop off the screen with plasma-like gusto the way they had before. Black levels improved, but some of the inner detail was now lost in the dimmer image. Motion remained the same, as did edge fidelity. Switching to the JVC produced an eye-opening experience, as there was no difference to the image when sitting ten feet away. I couldn't believe it. Keep in mind that this test only evaluated resolution, for both projectors were displaying the same Rec.709 color space using Blu-ray's eight-bit color standard, not DCi's expanded color space and greater bit depth. From ten and even eight feet away from a 110-inch screen, the difference between the JVC's native 1080p image and the VW1000ES' upscaled 4K product were so negligible that neither of us felt comfortable proclaiming a winner.
Returning the VW1000ES' brightness to 16 foot-lamberts resulted in an image that appeared to be of a higher quality, even though we knew it wasn't - it was simply brighter. It was only when I stood three feet from the screen that I was able to observe the difference between the two projectors' 1080p performance, for at three feet, I could easily see the JVC's pixels, whereas with the Sony, I could not. However, at three feet away, I also couldn't make out what was happening on the sides of the screen without turning my head, which isn't how many of us like to watch movies. Now, if you have a screen in excess of 140 inches, the VW1000ES would be a more suitable choice regardless of the source material, for it simply has the light output and pixel density to accommodate such a screen, but then again, I can also think of a few DLP-based projectors that can accommodate a screen this size as well and cost much less, such as Digital Projection's M-Vision Cine 260.

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post #2272 of 3519 Old 03-08-2014, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The extra brightness the 600ES has can give one a grandiose impression. I have a feeling the subjective image quality one can get from viewing a brighter image can distort things a bit. This is the same reason people who view 3-chip DLP say the same things you're stating now. They're just so much brighter and it makes your eyes see things a bit differently. You remark that it has higher color saturation. That's one thing a brighter image can make you think. The same goes for clarity and detail. I'm not saying the 600ES doesn't possess those traits, as I've yet to do a real comparison myself, but I have a good feeling if you were to match the brightness of a JVC that extra impression will lower and come close to the flagship JVC level. The 600ES on a smaller screen will "look" better in those regards to a JVC to most because it's so damn bright. I'd like to go back with my JVC and lux meter and do a little playing around. I'm going to see if I can make that happen.

I agree. Several years back when I had an RS2 and I went from a 1.1 gain screen to the Dalite HP screen (2.8 gain) colors popped more and the picture looked a bit sharper. Extra brightness really can make a difference.
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post #2273 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 05:50 AM
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Why would I cripple the light output of the Sony to match the JVC for a comparison. And it is NOT like comparing two speakers where one has higher volume. If the only reason the Sony has better detail, sharpness, etc is due to the brightness as you suggest, then it still has better detail, sharpness, etc.

Reducing the Sony brightness would be more like replacing the incredibly expensive midrange driver in the $200,000 Wilson Alexandria with an old Bose 901 midrange driver. That would be as silly as is reducing the brightness. Why not just screw up the focus of the Sony and do a comparison?
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post #2274 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 06:34 AM
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What you need to do is to stack two JVCs and then compare to the Sony. You are indeed playing one louder and then comparing impressions rather than measuring or even observing objectively. And I much prefer my Sony to any JVC. But brightness trumps almost anything when observing subjectively. The situation is unlike playing two different speakers at different loudness levels because you can correct that with better experimental technique. In your case, you can't play one l;ouder, the JVC is limited. All you can do is lower the volume on the one thatr can play louder. or stack the lower volume one. just plug in brightness to replace loudness.

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post #2275 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 08:08 AM
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The Sony is better for your room/screen. For use by itself, lowering the brightness on the Sony would be idiotic but to make an accurate comparison between the two you need to remove as much variable from the comparison so that you aren't tricked into thinking aspects other than light output are better. The Sony's extra brightness will give your eyes a better image to look at. There's no doubt there. I still think there will be several areas where the Sony will pull ahead when brightness matched. I'm sure there's better motion handling, higher ANSI contrast and a sharper image especially when RC is being used.

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post #2276 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Why would I cripple the light output of the Sony to match the JVC for a comparison.

The reason why someone would want to do this is if he wants to get a more precise handle on the qualities and attributes of the projectors beyond mere brightness differences. It's a standard approach of "controlling variables" to winnow out the information you wish to investigate.

Say someone has a JVC (dimmer projector), sees the Sony and raves about the difference in image quality: "Wow! The Sony has broken new ground here! It's sharper, colors are more amazing, it has more pop and depth than the JVC, better ANSI so bright scenes look better etc...they've really done something special here and it would be worth every penny to pay the difference!"

But...if it's the case the Sony does look that way in comparison to the JVC, to what can these differences be attributed? Is the Sony's expensive lens so much better that it's producing those differences? Or it's processing? Or it's light engine? Does Sony offer some technology that improves all these image parameters that the JVC lacks etc? If so, then it's not mere brightness difference and the ONLY WAY you will be able to get that sharper looking, more color saturated, more vibrant higher-ANSI-looking image is to lay out big bucks for the Sony.

But if, in controlling for brightness you find out the JVC and Sony image looks essentially the same and thus the differences were due simply to the Sony having a brighter bulb...and that's it, you are now armed with important and relevant information. It means that, for instance, if you currently had a neutral gain or less than neutral gain screen with the JVC you may be able to match the same brightness as the Sony
simply by replacing your screen with a Da Lite HP high gain screen! Thus getting the image you wanted at a huge saving over buying the Sony. And/or people with much smaller screens...who wouldn't be upgrading their screen size anyway...need not think they are missing out on some intrinsic image quality the Sony has since they may be getting as bright an image as someone else using the Sony on a much bigger screen, achieving relatively the same brightness as the JVC on a smaller screen.

It's simply how you arm yourself with more precise information so your decisions can be more informed and practical.

(ETA: When I saw the Sony VW1000 I was very impressed with all the above image qualities vs my JVC. However, when I did some more fiddling with my JVC, making it more vivid and brighter, somewhat smaller image, I began seeing some of the same image qualities I had attributed to the Sony).
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post #2277 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Why would I cripple the light output of the Sony to match the JVC for a comparison. And it is NOT like comparing two speakers where one has higher volume. If the only reason the Sony has better detail, sharpness, etc is due to the brightness as you suggest, then it still has better detail, sharpness, etc.

Reducing the Sony brightness would be more like replacing the incredibly expensive midrange driver in the $200,000 Wilson Alexandria with an old Bose 901 midrange driver. That would be as silly as is reducing the brightness. Why not just screw up the focus of the Sony and do a comparison?

No its not. If I go over to Mark's house and look at the Sony and I'm completely blown away by the attributes of the image because he runs it bright what happens when I take it home to my house and set the peak white level to 14 fL?? I won't go brighter than that in my home theater due to eye fatigue (my wife can barely take 14 fL and she complains every time there is a massive transition from really dark to really bright scenes). The Sony may no longer have any of the better attributes that were being pronounced by the brightness of the image in Mark's room. Now compared to my JVC that is setup for 14 fL the colors look about the same, the contrast doesn't look nearly as good near black and it is only moderately sharper.

The brightness of the Sony only matters if you plan to use it or you need it for a particularly large screen or low gain screen. Just like there are those that can't even consider something like the JVC due to its light output restrictions. But if your situation is one that both work fine for the level of light you want to achieve (which 14 fL being the reference makes sense) than you should be comparing them with the same peak white output achieved to see how much difference there is. You're analogy about the midrange driver is not even close to what you're trying to achieve when you compare with brightness matched between two projectors, defocusing or swapping the lens would be more in line with that comparison. Not matching brightness would be like comparing a Ferrari to a Camry for 60 mph driving by driving the Ferrari at 120 mph vs the Camry at 60 mph and then saying the Ferrari is better because it is more exhilarating despite the whole point of the test being to compare the cars performance at the speed you'll actually use it at (60 mph).

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post #2278 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 09:07 AM
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Another thought here, you ever notice how calibrators and reviewers always say that you can't judge a TV at a store because the companies send them out with everything MAXED out producing a picture that is REALLY bright to stand out on a show floor. Ever wonder why they do that?? So what happens when you calibrate the image and the brightness comes back down to the level you are going to use it at? Starts to look a lot like the other TVs would at that same light output. And then you find out that it isn't as good in other areas of the image that were glossed over because you were too enamored with the brightness and glossed over other weaknesses. That probably wouldn't be the case for the 600 or 1100 as they are both VERY strong projectors in just about every category, but you'd only know how they compare to something like the JVC if they were setup to the same intended peak white output you plan to use in your system.

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post #2279 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 09:26 AM
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I've heard it said many times on these forums, when comparing projectors for best image quality, you have to match the light output. I for one don't understand this philosophy, it seems logical to me to make projector A look its best and compare to projector B looking its best, then determine which projector looks best to you. If projector A's image is better to you because its brighter or projector B's image is better to you because it has higher contrast, so be it. This idea of "crippling" one projector in order to match the other projector, then see which one looks better to you makes no sense to me. I don't remember hearing someone say, we need to reduce the contrast or black level performance of the JVC to match the Sony or any projector, then compare. If someone has a "grandiose impression" or a higher "subjective image quality" from a projector with a brighter image, then that's what that person likes, why is that distorting things?



+1

Couldnt agree more - go look at the projectors, at the best picture they can make, at that size you want and then take that projector, who fits you needs / taste best - cant go wrong with that smile.gif

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post #2280 of 3519 Old 03-09-2014, 09:37 AM
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Of course as Chris knows, my brightness is probably at about 12 ft lamberts anyway right now. I really don't care to measure it but my bulb is around 1300 hours and my screen is 36 sq ft and has a gain of 1. Sometimes when I want a brighter image I bump it up to high lamp mode. I watched gravity in 3D on Friday and it was bright enough to enjoy (but the plot etc wasn't). Idiotic. But Chris' points are valid.

This month I will be watching a lot of sports. I have barely been using my projector and theater recently due to having to stay on the main floor to take care of my dog who can't really climb the stairs anymore or even get up without help.. Its OK. My dog is more important to me than using my HT.

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