Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 79 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2341 of 3589 Old 03-11-2014, 07:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,983
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 147
I completely agree, the movie theaters are a joke if we are talking a "reference" to behold.

It's like saying the packaged pre-frozen BBQ at the grocery store is better than southern home-style BBQ because it is at the BIG supermarkets and not in small BBQ places. McDonalds is the reference for a hamburger since 80 quadrillion served, but that doesn't mean at home we should try to emulate a McDonald's hamburger (if you went to a friend's house that said he was making hamburgers, and he served you one that tasted exactly like McDonald's, you'd probably be surprised - and disgusted).

The remastering monitors at the studio have very high contrast, that is how it was meant to be seen, the problem is the technology. Some of the worst setups I've seen have been commercial theaters, some of those projectors just suck or the calibration was way off. I've seen some ok setups too at commercial theaters, but usually the on/off contrast is lacking.

The best setups are probably the Sony commercial 4k projectors, then followed by the DLP projectors. I don't like many of the projectors they use in commercial theaters.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

**Current Projector Calculator** --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

coderguy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2342 of 3589 Old 03-11-2014, 08:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 222
I agree. Most of my local multiplexs now have Sony 4K machines. Other than absolute contrast performance I think the image they put out, due in large part to the source material they get, is beautiful. Contrast to me looks 'good' on these units. Nothing spectacular for home theater but for cinema performance it's a step up from other theater experiences with other projectors I've seen.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #2343 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 09:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
d.j.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Who said Cinema projectors are the point of reference when it comes to what you should be seeing? The only place you could honestly make that argument would be with the equipment and room used when the DP/Director/Colorist/ect mastered the movie. You'd have to match that level of performance.

Seegs108

Because when they mastering it, they do it for the cinema´s ( and make it fit for the cinema´s ) and with that, they deside what you should see in the picture, when you go to the cinema ( and not into the master / edit room ) and everbody who is taking the "purist" route is taking about, how it should be seen in the cinema, "like the director wanted" smile.gif - I really dont think purist want to see it, as it is in the mastering room or do you believe/ mean that ?

dj
d.j. is offline  
post #2344 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 10:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The remastering monitors at the studio have very high contrast, that is how it was meant to be seen, the problem is the technology..
The vast majority of mastering monitors were CRTs and are setup at 8K:1 to 10K:1 on/off CR. If you want to see the content as the colorist/DP/ saw it that is what you need.

Sony released their LM series 1080p LCD monitors to replace the CRTs. Those monitors had an on/off of < 2K:1 and were not very successful in the marketplace.

The new Sony OLED monitors have an on/off of >1mm:1 but they are only 1080p.

The new Sony 4K LCD monitors are supposed to have ~5K:1 on/off.

Bottom line, if you want to see the content as the folks in the mastering studio saw it you need ~10K:1 on/off
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #2345 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 10:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Seegs108

Because when they mastering it, they do it for the cinema´s ( and make it fit for the cinema´s ) and with that, they deside what you should see in the picture, when you go to the cinema ( and not into the master / edit room ) and everbody who is taking the "purist" route is taking about, how it should be seen in the cinema, "like the director wanted" smile.gif - I really dont think purist want to see it, as it is in the mastering room or do you believe/ mean that ?

dj
DCI content is mastered at ~2K:1 and home (Blu ray/DVD) content is mastered at ~10K:1.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #2346 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 10:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Sony released their LM series 1080p LCD monitors to replace the CRTs. Those monitors had an on/off of < 2K:1 and were not very successful in the marketplace
I measured one of the Sony LCDs at a studio in Hollywood at 480:1 on/off CR. This monitor had horrible looking blacks on lots of material, yet had much higher ANSI CR than the CRT monitor there. Still would like to see some of the experts who claim ANSI CR is all that matters and on/off CR is irrelevant explain how those 2 monitors actually performed for showing black as black with movie material to normal human vision without turning on lots of room lighting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

DCI content is mastered at ~2K:1 and home (Blu ray/DVD) content is mastered at ~10K:1.
Are you applying that ~10k:1 to all Blu-ray content mastered today or some lower percentage? Way more than 50%? What display(s) are you assuming for mastering Blu-ray to ~10k:1 today? I expect that today CRTs make up well under 50% of the displays used as the primary display for mastering Blu-ray content, but I could be wrong. Even ~5 years ago plasmas were taking over much of the market and it was hard to find a place with a CRT in Hollywood that I could measure. I know some stuff is done with projectors too.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #2347 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 11:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Seegs108

Because when they mastering it, they do it for the cinema´s ( and make it fit for the cinema´s ) and with that, they deside what you should see in the picture, when you go to the cinema ( and not into the master / edit room ) and everbody who is taking the "purist" route is taking about, how it should be seen in the cinema, "like the director wanted" smile.gif - I really dont think purist want to see it, as it is in the mastering room or do you believe/ mean that ?

dj

I think you're missing the point here. The simple fact that most theaters aren't using the same equipment is the flaw in your argument. You can't go to a commercial movie theater, watch a film, and say "that's how the director wanted me to see it". How do you know if the projector was calibrated the same, is showing the same resolution content that they mastered, same brightness, same black level, same amount of contrast, if the projector was even focused properly, ect and the list goes on.

This is why I hate the argument that people make about the "directors intent" for you to see a film a certain way, especially on blu-ray. I can see some validity to looking at a film in theaters as it's going to be the closest thing to your argument, but blu-ray? No way. Often times they get recolored when mastered. They go from different resolutions, color spaces, encoded in a different format with relatively low bit rate/bit depth, a lower frame rate and sometimes presented in a different aspect ratio. By the time we get it at home on blu-ray it's a totally different beast compared to what the director saw when mastering his film. Then factor in all the different projectors/HDTVs and how close (or far off) a calibration can go, the wide variety of contrast ratios, motion resolutions, pixel resolutions, viewing distances, ect. How can anyone mastering a BD tell you how it needs to be viewed when almost no two people have the same display? I think it's ridiculous to say that after a certain contrast ratio it's pointless because that's not "how it's supposed to be seen", especially when the BD is totally different from what the director wanted us to see anyways. So who cares? I'm going to keep watching these films with high contrast because I believe there is no one way they should be presented, rather many ways that they can be presented and I personally think a high contrast display, that can do more than 10000:1, is simply a better presentation and those that can't muster that much contrast are doing most films a disservice in terms of representing the film in it's best light.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #2348 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 12:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 49
I don't think there is one totally correct answer and we each have to pick our poison as far as setup. I want to give one example though.

Let's take the movie Devil. The whole premise of the movie is that a bunch of people are in an elevator where periodically the lights go out for a short while and something bad happens.

It seems pretty clear to me that the intent when M. Night Shyamalan came up with the story was that the lights actually go out during these portions. I don't have his phone number and can't call and ask, but this is one of those cases where it is by far most logical that the intent is that there be no light. I also haven't looked at the screenplay written by Brian Nelson, but again seems logical that it would call for the lights to go out, not for the lights to dim.

So, now the director and people mastering the content are limited by the technology they have at their disposal. Does that mean their intent is that the light goes to a dark gray instead of actually having the lights go out during those sequences when watching at home? I highly doubt that in this case.

I realize that getting a system that can actually achieve that changes some things compared to what a director or other professionals saw with their equipment that was limited in this area due to the technological difficulty of developing systems that can do more, but as I said I think we each have to pick our poison.

If somebody wants to see everything as it was seen from a mastering monitor then they can aim for that (including backlighting behind the display), but I don't personally subscribe to Director's Intent for even things that the director had no choice about and did the best they could with the equipment they had to work with.

I'm personally aiming for "best" (given cost and other considerations) and I get to decide myself what I consider best given tradeoffs. That may or many not be the most like real life (it isn't for completely taking away the dreamlike quality of film), but in the case of the blackouts in Devil I would prefer to go with what I think was intended in the story.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #2349 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 12:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Are you applying that ~10k:1 to all Blu-ray content mastered today or some lower percentage? Way more than 50%? What display(s) are you assuming for mastering Blu-ray to ~10k:1 today? I expect that today CRTs make up well under 50% of the displays used as the primary display for mastering Blu-ray content, but I could be wrong. Even ~5 years ago plasmas were taking over much of the market and it was hard to find a place with a CRT in Hollywood that I could measure. I know some stuff is done with projectors too.
I don't know what % of today's content is mastered with CRTs. 2 years ago when I was active in the industry it was still the vast majority so it stands to reason the the vast majority of available content was mastered on < 10K:1 displays. Regardless of the mastering device the target display was understood to have even less CR, typically in the 2K to 5K:1 range but that varied by post prod shops.

I have not been on these forums for 2 or 3 years but for me the contrast wars ended about 3 years ago when I realized that in double blind tests most very knowledgeable viewers (colorists) could not pick out the significantly higher contrast device on 99.99% of program material once both devices delivered >10K:1 on/off.

I know on the Sony side of the projector marketplace, light output is now considered the primary driver of their limited R&D efforts. It is no coincidence that the VW600 micro display chip delivers 50% of the CR and 200% of the light output of the VW95's
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #2350 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 01:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Wendell R. Breland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,367
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I realized that in double blind tests most very knowledgeable viewers (colorists) could not pick out the significantly higher contrast device on 99.99% of program material once both devices delivered >10K:1 on/off.

Seems reasonable.

Something else for folks to gnaw on, if we accept that 16 = black and 235 = white (for 8 bit) then we only have a contrast range 219 in the source material. For the non techies, think of it as looking at a stairway with 217 steps, the bottom floor = 16 and the top floor = 235.

If the video engineer errors and adjust the black level set of the program by just 0.46 units then the contrast rage will only be 218:1 for the program material.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Wendell R. Breland is online now  
post #2351 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 01:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
d.j.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

DCI content is mastered at ~2K:1 and home (Blu ray/DVD) content is mastered at ~10K:1.



Thanks Houston ( always wanted to say that biggrin.gif )


dj
d.j. is offline  
post #2352 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 01:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 21,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Something else for folks to gnaw on, if we accept that 16 = black and 235 = white (for 8 bit) then we only have a contrast range 219 in the source material. For the non techies, think of it as looking at a stairway with 217 steps, the bottom floor = 16 and the top floor = 235.

If the video engineer errors and adjust the black level set of the program by just 0.46 units then the contrast rage will only be 218:1 for the program material.
And it would look very bad for blacks. So, the good ones wouldn't do that. An on/off CR of 218:1 is very bad in a dark environment as evidenced by how horrible those Sony LCDs with about 480:1 looked with real material like that. You could try setting your projector up that way and see what it looks like if you want.

As far as that >10k:1 thing, without a context of what the testing was it doesn't tell me a whole lot. For instance, was this 10k:1 vs 20k:1 or 10k:1 vs >1 milion:1 and was it with lighting behind the displays? I've seen too many tests where things were setup to so that they actually didn't apply in many situations, but people would apply them to those other situations anyway.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
darinp2 is online now  
post #2353 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 02:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
d.j.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post


1. I think you're missing the point here. The simple fact that most theaters aren't using the same equipment is the flaw in your argument. You can't go to a commercial movie theater, watch a film, and say "that's how the director wanted me to see it". How do you know if the projector was calibrated the same, is showing the same resolution content that they mastered, same brightness, same black level, same amount of contrast, if the projector was even focused properly, ect and the list goes on.

2. This is why I hate the argument that people make about the "directors intent" for you to see a film a certain way, especially on blu-ray. I can see some validity to looking at a film in theaters as it's going to be the closest thing to your argument, but blu-ray? No way. Often times they get recolored when mastered. They go from different resolutions, color spaces, encoded in a different format with relatively low bit rate/bit depth, a lower frame rate and sometimes presented in a different aspect ratio. By the time we get it at home on blu-ray it's a totally different beast compared to what the director saw when mastering his film. Then factor in all the different projectors/HDTVs and how close (or far off) a calibration can go, the wide variety of contrast ratios, motion resolutions, pixel resolutions, viewing distances, ect. How can anyone mastering a BD tell you how it needs to be viewed when almost no two people have the same display? I think it's ridiculous to say that after a certain contrast ratio it's pointless because that's not "how it's supposed to be seen", especially when the BD is totally different from what the director wanted us to see anyways. So who cares? I'm going to keep watching these films with high contrast because I believe there is no one way they should be presented, rather many ways that they can be presented and 3. I personally think a high contrast display, that can do more than 10000:1, is simply a better presentation and those that can't muster that much contrast are doing most films a disservice in terms of representing the film in it's best light.


Seegs108


1. No, I just think , Im bad at saying what I mean on a foreign language and obviously to get the correct and accurate manner takes more time than I have used redface.gif ( I will try to be more precise )

2. Im sure agree on that, and I have never used or worried about the "directors intent" - I dont care about that either, I want it to look real ( and NOT be limited by 50 -100 years old standard / equipment ,or "that how film is" - for example: movie should be 24P frames - because that was what, we could get away with, without people complaining - even if pannings looks like shi in the 19xx . wink.gifbiggrin.gif )

Qute: : "This is the standard for film, adopted decades ago when filmmakers were looking for the absolute cheapest way to make their films. 24 frames per second was identified as the lowest frame rate possible to produce believable motion, while staying in sync with the audio track. Film was (and largely still is) very expensive to work with — it must be sent away to be developed; processing/color correction/effects are tedious to perform; editing is more difficult; prints are expensive to produce. In light of all this, it’s no wonder that filmmakers wanted to get away with the fewest amount of frames possible."
Qute end.

3. Then please tell me, why you dont think the movie will be a better presentation and a better Picture ( "representing the film in it's best light" biggrin.gif ) with, for example, 20 - 25 fL !?? ( you personally find the "dimmer" 14fL to be perfect ? and would choose that over say 25fL ? ) or do you too find 14fL "blinding" ? ( and if yes, how on earth could most people then live with CRT´s, LCD´s, plasma, OLED etc. which all exceed that output very easy and most off them get calibreted ( Down ) to 30 -40 fL even in totally dark rooms without lights on and with 55" - 85" sizes displays today.

dj
d.j. is offline  
post #2354 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 02:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

3. Then please tell me, why you dont think the movie will be a better presentation and a better Picture ( "representing the film in it's best light" biggrin.gif ) with, for example, 20 - 25 fL !?? ( you personally find the "dimmer" 14fL to be perfect ? and would choose that over say 25fL ? ) or do you too find 14fL "blinding" ? ( and if yes, how on earth could most people then live with CRT´s, LCD´s, plasma, OLED etc. which all exceed that output very easy and most off them get calibreted ( Down ) to 30 -40 fL even in totally dark rooms without lights on and with 55" - 85" sizes displays today.

That's actually what I'm arguing against. I'm saying that because there are few who can actually recreate that mastering suite experience there's little point to look at those standards and follow them in regards to contrast and brightness and instead display the content as it pleases you. I agree that there should be no reason why if I have a display that can do 120000:1+ contrast with a 25 ftL peak white I should be able to view material that way. I also find it odd that some call this a waste because the mastering suite dictates it doesn't need to be higher that ~10000:1 or 14ftL peak white and that if you are above those standards you're creating a scenario in which the director would not condone as a proper representation of his film. I just don't buy into "director's intent" as many other people do.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #2355 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 03:15 PM
Member
 
Thaal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18

I just watch movies the way I like them ^^ Today's technology allows a great deal of flexibility to tweak stuff to your likings or fall back to reference / calibrated with one preset... so it's only a few button press away.

Same when I go to the restaurant, I tend to add salt on my food, even if for the cook thinks it was salted enough already ;)

 

While I respect the standards and the director's intent, it's nothing more than a baseline that I often adjust to my liking / environnement / equipment... :)

Thaal is offline  
post #2356 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 03:17 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Director's have different intents and views on how they want their films presented, of course. But that said, I think generally they welcome advances that allow for a richer image, at least.

One example would be Ridley Scott:

"Perhaps because of my background as a graphic designer I'm drawn to rich and beautiful colors," said Ridley Scott, award winning director of movies including "Alien" and "Gladiator." He added, "As a filmmaker, deep blacks are essential and in my experience no technology captures those attributes as well as Plasma. Watching one of my recent films, 'Kingdom of Heaven' on a 65-inch Panasonic Plasma was breathtaking."


Certainly at the point Ridley Was huckstering for plasma, Panasonic was producing black levels/contrast ratios far exceeding commercial cinemas.

Rich H


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R Harkness is online now  
post #2357 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 03:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Tell him to check out a JVC biggrin.gif

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #2358 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 03:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 19,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 382 Post(s)
Liked: 442
If one checks the thread title, this is a thread about Sony 500/600 projectors. Just reading the last several pages, no one could even imagine that one was reading a Sony 500/600 thread. Seegs, tell him to check out a JVC? Why don't you send him yours and buy a Sony 4K instead?.
HoustonHoyaFan and hwoarang like this.

Mark Haflich

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is offline  
post #2359 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 04:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

One example would be Ridley Scott:

"Perhaps because of my background as a graphic designer I'm drawn to rich and beautiful colors," said Ridley Scott, award winning director of movies including "Alien" and "Gladiator." He added, "As a filmmaker, deep blacks are essential and in my experience no technology captures those attributes as well as Plasma. Watching one of my recent films, 'Kingdom of Heaven' on a 65-inch Panasonic Plasma was breathtaking."


Certainly at the point Ridley Was huckstering for plasma, Panasonic was producing black levels/contrast ratios far exceeding commercial cinemas.
I'm sure that when advances in capture tech comes out DP will take advantage of it but that is not the question. Michael Mann went on record during the filming of Collateral about the look he was after in night and dark scenes.

From his DP on that project:
“In terms of the night, that was complicated,” Sonnenfeld explains. “Michael's point was that when you look outside in the city at night, you don't just see black skies with contrasty light. You see a brighter sky, with weird sodium, mauve, and magenta colors in the sky, along with wild flares and halos and mid-range tonal ranges. Some filmmakers make that dark and contrasty, but it really isn't. Michael asked me to highlight this point in the DI.

http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/node/45657
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #2360 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 04:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Wendell R. Breland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,367
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

And it would look very bad for blacks. So, the good ones wouldn't do that.

I was speaking only about the range of the source material (SMPTE 274, etc.), not video display monitors. We all desire a monitor with a ∞:1 contrast ratio but in reality we have to settle for less. Never had to deal with LCDs in the control rooms or edit suites, we had plasmas and CRTs.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Wendell R. Breland is online now  
post #2361 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 05:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 7,094
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I'm sure that when advances in capture tech comes out DP will take advantage of it but that is not the question. Michael Mann went on record during the filming of Collateral about the look he was after in night and dark scenes.

From his DP on that project:
“In terms of the night, that was complicated,” Sonnenfeld explains. “Michael's point was that when you look outside in the city at night, you don't just see black skies with contrasty light. You see a brighter sky, with weird sodium, mauve, and magenta colors in the sky, along with wild flares and halos and mid-range tonal ranges. Some filmmakers make that dark and contrasty, but it really isn't. Michael asked me to highlight this point in the DI.

http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/node/45657

He's talking about in a city landscape and he's absolutely right. The bloom from all the lights of the city make it look more like a washed out gray than a deep black. I'm sure he'd change his mind completely if it was a space movie or a night scene in the desert. Besides, the blacks wouldn't be encoded anywhere near digital 16 for that type of scene. But I imagine when a director shot a scene with the intent to be truly black (Finding Nemo is a great example) they would probably want that to truly be black and not light to medium gray. This is why mastering suites use waveform monitors for black since most of the displays won't show a true black. I've never considered what we see in commercial cinemas to be the intent of the DP or director.

Senior Video Editor
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Kris Deering is online now  
post #2362 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 05:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Yeah that Michael Mann quote has to do with acheaving a certain look in a specific film. In no way does it suggest Mann has the opinion that black levels/contrast ought to be limited for movies across the board.

Rich H


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R Harkness is online now  
post #2363 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 05:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I've never considered what we see in commercial cinemas to be the intent of the DP or director.
Not sure what that means. Mann in Collateral also premiered that piece in DLP equipped cinemas because he claimed that those projectors (not film) gave his work the look he wanted.

Of course if mega (contrast, brightness, high speed) was available in the creation chain DPs would take advantage of it. It is not so we have what we have.

In any event on/off contrast is just not the only or even the most important factor for lots of folks particularly given the performance of contemporary devices. I chased on/off contrast from 2000 to about 2010, after serveral double blind A/B's I don't worry about it any more.

I'm surprised that after 2 or 3 years away from the forum it is still such a hot topic and again in a Sony VW thread by JVC owners. If one wants the highest on/off CR in a projector buy a JVC, everyone knows that.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #2364 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 05:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Yeah that Michael Mann quote has to do with acheaving a certain look in a specific film. In no way does it suggest Mann has the opinion that black levels/contrast ought to be limited for movies across the board.
Where did anyone suggest that BL/CR should be limited for movies?
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #2365 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 07:12 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Where did anyone suggest that BL/CR should be limited for movies?

To re-cap how we got here:

The discussion has concerned how much contrast do we need/want in home theater displays? We've talked about various goals, using cinema as a reference (our home displays handily surpass such contrast - good or bad thing?) the mastering displays as a reference (problem: they are variable in contrast, and then what do we do if our home displays already surpass the contrast of the mastering displays?)

We've also talked about whether the higher contrast of our home displays were still consonant with reproducing movies as they would be approved by the content producers, e.g. the directors. Of course, we can only speak in generalities.

Some of us have felt that it's most likely the content producers would welcome higher contrast displays for consumers to view their movies, since improved contrast generally equates to an improvement in image richness, color, etc. Why wouldn't most content producers think this a good thing for their work?

And I gave an example in support of THAT viewpoint: That upon seeing his work on a display that was able to render higher contrast/deeper black levels than one would get in a cinema, Ridley Scott highly approved.

You countered, apparently, with a quote about Michael Mann desiring a certain look for city night scenes in a specific movie. What was the pertinence of countering the Ridley Scott quote with the Mann anecdote, if NOT to dispute somehow the point I'd been making? That film-makers most likely would generally welcome the wider contrast/deeper black level capabilities of our home displays. It was clearly a GENERAL claim about the worth of higher contrast displays. It you were not making a point against this, I'm not sure what pertinence I was supposed to draw from your Mann quotes. (And even in the case of that particular movie, surely a display with wider contrast would still display Mann's vision, provided his vision was competently, accurately mastered).

As to you not chasing contrast beyond 10,000:1, ok, we all have our own criteria and goals. I'm frankly very glad manufacturers are not stopping at that point as I am glad to reap the benefits of higher contrast in my home cinema. For instance, the distinctly deeper black levels I get with lower APL scenes using my new JVC RS57s dynamic iris, are of benefit in my bat cave, which really shows up "projected black" levels. I just had a professional calibrator here with a Konica-Minolta CS-1000A spectroradiometer and we measured the black levels with the dynamic iris off then on. The difference has been clear to me since getting the projector, it was clear to him visually as well, and there was a distinct, significant difference in the objective black level measurement as well. So it's there...and much appreciated for it's contribution to movies!

Rich H


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R Harkness is online now  
post #2366 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 07:32 PM
Senior Member
 
me23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Has anyone gotten the piece of crap Time Warner Samsung smt-h3262 cable box to work with this projector? I enabled all the resolutions on the box, just get hdmi 1 top left just flashing in yellow, but I do hear sound every time it flashes.
I have the pioneer sc-79, so I tried to upscale to 1080p/60 and 1080p/24 and it looked like it was closer to working, but no go. The cable box is good, it works on other tvs.

I managed to get to work on the 600es by using the oppo 103 to upconvert it, but I rather not turn that on just for the cable. Anyone have suggestions?
me23 is offline  
post #2367 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 07:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 7,094
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Of course if mega (contrast, brightness, high speed) was available in the creation chain DPs would take advantage of it.

High brightness and contrast is available. It isn't like it takes a special kind of camera to capture black. Film captured black. New digital cameras are getting more and more f stop capabilities (I imagine so they can capture darker and darker images) and have higher contrast capabilities than ever. I've seen some amazing black and near black performance from films captured with Red, Sony and Arri digital cameras. And again, since most post houses are using waveform monitors to ensure black is truly black in mastering (without relying on the medium gray that the D-Cinema projector they may be using for mastering has) than you can already get amazing contrast out of most material.
Quote:
I have not been on these forums for 2 or 3 years but for me the contrast wars ended about 3 years ago when I realized that in double blind tests most very knowledgeable viewers (colorists) could not pick out the significantly higher contrast device on 99.99% of program material once both devices delivered >10K:1 on/off.

If there are ANY "knowledgeable viewers" that cannot pick out the difference between a display that has 10K:1 on/off and one that has even 50K:1 (never mind the new JVC's delivering over 300,000:1) than they really should find new jobs. I'd have a hard time finding someone that couldn't tell the difference in about a few seconds. Obviously if they were looking at high APL images and switching back and forth they wouldn't see much difference but the second it went to anything in the low APL or black floor there should be a pretty massive difference of the displays weren't setup or measured correctly. I think the benefits of a higher ANSI display run out FAR FAR FAR before the benefits of higher on/off.

As for the comments about getting a brighter image and preferring it, ABSOLUTELY!!! I've never said that people wouldn't prefer a brighter image or that you shouldn't try to obtain one. SMPTE and THX spec 14fL and that is what I (as in me, myself) use since that would also translate DIRECTLY into how the color would look to the colorist that mastered it. Since they don't use their display as their reference for blackouts (waveform monitor) I am more than happy to have my massive improvement in contrast and black level (even though I shouldn't see it and should have stopped buying new projectors years ago I guess). And I've already said numerous times that anything above 14 fL is too bright for my room. I already hear enough complaints from my wife during massive transitions from bright material to dark material. Can I make my PJ brighter? Absolutely! But I'm more than content at 14 fL in MY viewing environment and I certainly wouldn't frown on anyone that wants a brighter image. Just don't tell me that contrast doesn't matter or that anything greater than 10K:1 is not needed. That is crazy talk! tongue.gif

So if high contrast performance doesn't really matter why did Christopher Nolan setup that room in LA with all those Kuro's (and use them for post production and mastering BECAUSE of their black level performance)? Maybe he didn't want it to be called The Dusk Knight?? wink.gif
maximus74 likes this.

Senior Video Editor
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Kris Deering is online now  
post #2368 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 08:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,983
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Yah, a lot of stuff is remastered now-a-days to go down to pretty much absolute black. Heck almost all CG content has lots of absolute black in it, so if you watch any animated films, etc...

It's really easy to tell the difference between say 50,000:1 native on/off vs. a projector that has 10,000:1 native on/off but uses an IRIS. So the point being is, it's silly to say people cannot see the difference between 10,000:1 and 50,000:1, that's 5x more contrast.

The difference isn't as big as it soiunds, but it's still plenty big. I was getting about 12,000:1 on/off with a Sanyo z4000's IRIS engaged (about 4500:1 native) and 35,000:1 on/off on my RS-45, and even between these two numbers. it's easy to tell the difference even if you are not watching the film in A/B. Heck I can tell the difference months apart, but the trick is you have to watch something that really shows off those blacks, and both projectors have to be about the same brightness.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

**Current Projector Calculator** --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

coderguy is offline  
post #2369 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 08:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

To re-cap how we got here:

The discussion has concerned how much contrast do we need/want in home theater displays? !
If mega on/off CR is so important and compelling buy an OLED display and be done with it. Why is this 'discussion' taking place in a Sony VW thread?

You have made your decision with what is important to you with your purchase. Others (here) made a different choice with their purchase. I have spent at least 5+ years running a post house and I can tell you that everyone does not treat more contrast as the holy grail. I have owned a G70, VW100, RS2, Sharp 12K, Sharp 20K, RS35, RS60 and a VW95 and for what I value in an image the VW95 produces the best picture imo. I don't care about or need any more on/off CR thank you that is why I am visiting the Sony VW600 thread.

I remember a discussion about a shootout that KrisDeering and DarinP did 3 or 4 years ago involving a RS35 (70K:1) and a couple of moderate CR pjs. I wonder what has changed since that time.
HoustonHoyaFan is offline  
post #2370 of 3589 Old 03-12-2014, 08:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,983
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Some studios do use OLED, there is a mix of equipment these days and everyone does things a little differently. A lot of them replaced their equipment with new stuff the past 5 years, but I'm sure they kept some of the old, and some of them may still be using some CRT's, but not many.

Don't think the RS-35 was ever really producing 70,000:1 in real world on/off, probably 35,000:1 to 45,000:1...



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

**Current Projector Calculator** --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

coderguy is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Sony Vpl Vw500es , Sony Vpl Vw1000es Projector , Sony Fmp X1 4k Ultra Hd Media Player
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off