My 5 Best Projectors at CEDIA 2013 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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They are, in alphabetical but otherwise no particular order:

Digital Projection HIGHlite 330-3D-HC MSRP $29,995
Digital Projection M-Vision Cine 320-HB MSRP $9,995
JVC DLA-RS6710 (Emabassy Suites) MSRP $12,499
Runco LS-12HBd MSRP $29,995
Sony VPL-VW600ES MSRP $14,999


In my book, each was excellent for different reasons. I would buy any of them. I’ll run through the DLPs first, then JVC and Sony:

DP HIGHlite and M-Vision
As a convert a couple of years ago to the look of DLP, I thought the DP 330 HC was simply superb on a very large screen. I returned again and again to look at this immensely enjoyable projector. I've never seen "Art of Flight" look better except on systems costing many multiples more. The purity of the all-white snow fields was beyond criticism. When the content switched to darker material, there was no letdown. Contrast was excellent. Maybe not JVC excellent, but close. The high contrast "HC" moniker is deserved. Given how bright DP projectors are, and how important a large screen is too creating sufficiently large viewing angles to achieve a properly immersive experience, the small trade-off in contrast, which most civilians wouldn't even notice, was well worth it.

Equally good once you factor in the far lower price tag, was the M-Vision Cine 320-HB. Again, great whites, and lots and lots of brightness. Noticeably less than the HIGHlite 330 when you compared them back-to-back, but seeing the 320 first, I had no complaints. It was only when we switched over to the 330 that the 320 fell short. But then, the 320 is the lowest priced projector of the five on my list here by $2500.

It's also single chip. If that doesn't matter to you, this is an obvious, high value choice for DLP fans.

One more thing: Color accuracy and realism, previously a DP glaring weakness in my judgment, was superb on both projectors. Skin tones, red reds, non-limey greens - all the difficult tests were aced. DP has achieved what was necessary to compete with all the finest projectors from other manufacturers. I can finally say, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend, or buy, a DP projector. Given the vast array of lens and other options, and resultant installation flexibility, I can see why DP is a brand being carried by more and more dealers.

RUNCO LS-12HBd
Excellent brightness. This thing will light up a truly enormous screen. Like DP, it doesn't have the contrast ratio of a JVC projector, but most viewers won't notice because it's far better than merely acceptable. Throw in Runco's focus on, and decades-long proselytizing for, color accuracy, tremendous lens flexibility, warranty options, interesting chassis industrial design, and this is an obvious and excellent projector choice.

JVC DLA-RS6710
To see the RS6710 at it's best, it was necessary to visit the JVC Pro booth at the Embassy Suites Hotel. Its consumer equivalent simply did not look nearly as good at the Convention Center JVC Booth. Consequently, I wouldn't put the consumer unit in this top five list and I would buy the "proven" to my eyes Pro Division RS6710 if I was buying a JVC.

If ever there was a turn-key solution for home theater enthusiasts who just want to write a check and sit back and watch movies and forget all the fussiness, this was it. At $12,500 for a hand-trimmed, ready-to-go, set-it-and-forget-it projector, this is a relative steal. Superb contrast, vivid colors, engrossing, rich images. Yes, psychologically, I was having a hard time getting past the fact that this was 4K from 1080P chips, but the images didn't belie this "trickery" in any way (don't hesitate to call me on that if that's an unfair characterization).

Simply superb. Perhaps once some here have had this unit for extended periods, reports of long term viewer fatigue may emerge from the brain doing the work of assembling the 4K image, just as some viewers experience fatigue from the brain assembling the colors derived from single chip color wheels. But until then, this is a great, easy choice. Write the check for your hand-trimmed RS6710, connect it to a source and start watching. Nothing more to do. Plus, the extraordinary five(!) year warranty, the free extra lamp, free 3-D glasses...

The only caveats are:
1. You can't do as big a screen as you can with a DP or Runco.
2. The image isn't quite as cinematic as a DLP projector, in my opinion
3. Hockey fans, ski bum movie fans, should consider more carefully. As always with D-ILA technology, the white field uniformity was poor. White screens were mottled with discolored dark splotches throughout. Hockey rinks don't have crystal clear white ice. Alaskan snow that was pristine and bright on the DP projectors, had patches of dull gray. It wouldn't stop me from buying because most of the time, this weakness was not a major distraction when viewing content, but it is a consideration.

SONY VPL-VW600ES
What can you say? Sony has done it again at a remarkable price point: 4K for $15K. 4K that's true 4K (4096 x 2160). HDMI 2.0. Included 4K Media Player (FMP-X1 4K). Xperia Tablet Z (with cover art) to control everything - a mini version of Kaleidescape. Better brightness than JVC, excellent contrast, tons of resolution, access to Sony's 70-title library of 4K content.
Suddenly, the leap from $12.5K for the RS6710 to $15K for the VPL-VW600ES doesn't seem so large. I loved the RS6710, but if I'm being honest, the 600ES is a better value.


P.S. Now I know some of you are going to ask me, because there are so many JVC cheapskate fans here, and rightly so, how much better was the RS6710 than it's lower cost brethren? Is it really worth so much extra money?

To me, once you've seen the RS6710, you can never go back. Yes, it's that much better, that much more of a pleasure, that much more satisfying. Everyone wants a Mercedes S Class (especially the new one) for the price of a Toyota, but it doesn't exist. The RS6710 is a flagship projector that can hold its own on moderate sized screens with the best projectors in the world. The optics, the chip alignment, the calibration, just can't be matched at the lower JVC price points. If you have any path enabling you to stretch to the RS6710, do it. Put the extra cost on credit card, save up longer, buy used (but not too used). Do what you have to do. It's worth every penny.
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post #2 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 10:38 AM
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Great report and I agree that the JVCs at the Embassy Suites were presented MUCH better vs the showroom floor demo.

I personally don't see the value in the 6710 TBH and to me it makes much more sense to buy the 5710 which is going to be very close performance wise for considerably cheaper. The 6710 (at least MSRP) is just to close in price relatively to the superior (IMO from what I saw and you seem to agree) Sony 600 that it would be worth it at that point splurging a bit more for the Sony. It was amazing to me how much punchier the Sony looked on a 13' wide 1.3 gain screen vs the JVC 6710 on a smaller higher gain 11' wide 1.5 gain screen. While impressive, the 6710 was not screaming "buy me" to my eyes while the Sony was. Lots of variables obviously, but if anything Sony had a disadvantage vs JVC as the room was not optimum with the light shining through the back curtain which was lighting up the left side of the screen slightly, and it still looked incredible.

As far as seeing the 6710 and never going back? Again, I just did not see anything about it that so far in a way blew the 4910 away, but at the same time it was nearly impossible to compare the two to see the differences since they were presenting different material on different size and gain screens........there was really no way to see what significant real world differences there were (if any) between the two in light of this. Not to mention all the other variables. We really need to see some production models tested in the same room, same screen, same material, setup as closely as possible, etc......before determining how much better the 6710 actually is which was inconclusive at best from the demo IMO.

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post #3 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 10:51 AM
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I liked all the same projectors, and pretty much for the same reasons ( didn't see the Runco though ).

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post #4 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 02:50 PM
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Is the difference between the 6710 and the next model down just hand picked components? If so, then I agree with Toe. In my viewing, I have never seen that big of a difference.

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post #5 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Is the difference between the 6710 and the next model down just hand picked components? If so, then I agree with Toe. In my viewing, I have never seen that big of a difference.
5 yr vs. 2 yr, extra lamp

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post #6 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 05:31 PM
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Sounds like you had a great time at the expo PF! Question for ya...what size screens did you view the DPI units on??


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post #7 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PF View Post

They are, in alphabetical but otherwise no particular order:

Digital Projection HIGHlite 330-3D-HC MSRP $29,995
Digital Projection M-Vision Cine 320-HB MSRP $9,995
JVC DLA-RS6710 (Emabassy Suites) MSRP $12,499
Runco LS-12HBd MSRP $29,995
Sony VPL-VW600ES MSRP $14,999


In my book, each was excellent for different reasons. I would buy any of them. I’ll run through the DLPs first, then JVC and Sony:

DP HIGHlite and M-Vision
As a convert a couple of years ago to the look of DLP, I thought the DP 330 HC was simply superb on a very large screen. I returned again and again to look at this immensely enjoyable projector. I've never seen "Art of Flight" look better except on systems costing many multiples more. The purity of the all-white snow fields was beyond criticism. When the content switched to darker material, there was no letdown. Contrast was excellent. Maybe not JVC excellent, but close. The high contrast "HC" moniker is deserved. Given how bright DP projectors are, and how important a large screen is too creating sufficiently large viewing angles to achieve a properly immersive experience, the small trade-off in contrast, which most civilians wouldn't even notice, was well worth it.

Equally good once you factor in the far lower price tag, was the M-Vision Cine 320-HB. Again, great whites, and lots and lots of brightness. Noticeably less than the HIGHlite 330 when you compared them back-to-back, but seeing the 320 first, I had no complaints. It was only when we switched over to the 330 that the 320 fell short. But then, the 320 is the lowest priced projector of the five on my list here by $2500.

It's also single chip. If that doesn't matter to you, this is an obvious, high value choice for DLP fans.

One more thing: Color accuracy and realism, previously a DP glaring weakness in my judgment, was superb on both projectors. Skin tones, red reds, non-limey greens - all the difficult tests were aced. DP has achieved what was necessary to compete with all the finest projectors from other manufacturers. I can finally say, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend, or buy, a DP projector. Given the vast array of lens and other options, and resultant installation flexibility, I can see why DP is a brand being carried by more and more dealers.

RUNCO LS-12HBd
Excellent brightness. This thing will light up a truly enormous screen. Like DP, it doesn't have the contrast ratio of a JVC projector, but most viewers won't notice because it's far better than merely acceptable. Throw in Runco's focus on, and decades-long proselytizing for, color accuracy, tremendous lens flexibility, warranty options, interesting chassis industrial design, and this is an obvious and excellent projector choice.

JVC DLA-RS6710
To see the RS6710 at it's best, it was necessary to visit the JVC Pro booth at the Embassy Suites Hotel. Its consumer equivalent simply did not look nearly as good at the Convention Center JVC Booth. Consequently, I wouldn't put the consumer unit in this top five list and I would buy the "proven" to my eyes Pro Division RS6710 if I was buying a JVC.

If ever there was a turn-key solution for home theater enthusiasts who just want to write a check and sit back and watch movies and forget all the fussiness, this was it. At $12,500 for a hand-trimmed, ready-to-go, set-it-and-forget-it projector, this is a relative steal. Superb contrast, vivid colors, engrossing, rich images. Yes, psychologically, I was having a hard time getting past the fact that this was 4K from 1080P chips, but the images didn't belie this "trickery" in any way (don't hesitate to call me on that if that's an unfair characterization).

Simply superb. Perhaps once some here have had this unit for extended periods, reports of long term viewer fatigue may emerge from the brain doing the work of assembling the 4K image, just as some viewers experience fatigue from the brain assembling the colors derived from single chip color wheels. But until then, this is a great, easy choice. Write the check for your hand-trimmed RS6710, connect it to a source and start watching. Nothing more to do. Plus, the extraordinary five(!) year warranty, the free extra lamp, free 3-D glasses...

The only caveats are:
1. You can't do as big a screen as you can with a DP or Runco.
2. The image isn't quite as cinematic as a DLP projector, in my opinion
3. Hockey fans, ski bum movie fans, should consider more carefully. As always with D-ILA technology, the white field uniformity was poor. White screens were mottled with discolored dark splotches throughout. Hockey rinks don't have crystal clear white ice. Alaskan snow that was pristine and bright on the DP projectors, had patches of dull gray. It wouldn't stop me from buying because most of the time, this weakness was not a major distraction when viewing content, but it is a consideration.

SONY VPL-VW600ES
What can you say? Sony has done it again at a remarkable price point: 4K for $15K. 4K that's true 4K (4096 x 2160). HDMI 2.0. Included 4K Media Player (FMP-X1 4K). Xperia Tablet Z (with cover art) to control everything - a mini version of Kaleidescape. Better brightness than JVC, excellent contrast, tons of resolution, access to Sony's 70-title library of 4K content.
Suddenly, the leap from $12.5K for the RS6710 to $15K for the VPL-VW600ES doesn't seem so large. I loved the RS6710, but if I'm being honest, the 600ES is a better value.


P.S. Now I know some of you are going to ask me, because there are so many JVC cheapskate fans here, and rightly so, how much better was the RS6710 than it's lower cost brethren? Is it really worth so much extra money?

To me, once you've seen the RS6710, you can never go back. Yes, it's that much better, that much more of a pleasure, that much more satisfying. Everyone wants a Mercedes S Class (especially the new one) for the price of a Toyota, but it doesn't exist. The RS6710 is a flagship projector that can hold its own on moderate sized screens with the best projectors in the world. The optics, the chip alignment, the calibration, just can't be matched at the lower JVC price points. If you have any path enabling you to stretch to the RS6710, do it. Put the extra cost on credit card, save up longer, buy used (but not too used). Do what you have to do. It's worth every penny.

A great post. Definitely one of the best posted on AVS F in a long time.

Thank you for taking the time to give us your impressions and in such a well written and presented manner.

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post #8 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 07:10 PM
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Sounds like you had a great time at the expo PF! Question for ya...what size screens did you view the DPI units on??

DPI was using Stewart ST130, 165" diagonal 16:9.

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post #9 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I liked all the same projectors, and pretty much for the same reasons ( didn't see the Runco though ).

The Wisdom room that we looked at, used the Runco.

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post #10 of 33 Old 09-30-2013, 07:38 PM
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DPI was using Stewart ST130, 165" diagonal 16:9.

Thanks Mike! So it's about the same surface area as a 180" 2:37 screen..hmmmm. Of course, the Stewart has some gain


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post #11 of 33 Old 10-01-2013, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

DPI was using Stewart ST130, 165" diagonal 16:9.

That's my recollection also.

The Runco LS12 was displayed on a very large screen. Somewhere in the 180 to 200-inch range, if I recall correctly. When you walked in the room, my impression was that the screen was noticeably bigger than those on which the other 4 projectors were shown. But I'm not 100% certain, so I will defer to others here who may have more precise information
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post #12 of 33 Old 10-01-2013, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

A great post. Definitely one of the best posted on AVS F in a long time.

Thank you for taking the time to give us your impressions and in such a well written and presented manner.

Thanks, Mark, I appreciate it. It's the least I can do for this great AVS club of ours.
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post #13 of 33 Old 10-01-2013, 11:56 AM
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PF, curious what you found lacking in he Cine 1000 LED pj.

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post #14 of 33 Old 10-01-2013, 01:31 PM
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The Wisdom room that we looked at, used the Runco

I sit corrected ! smile.gif I was concentrating more on the audio and the screen in that room !

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post #15 of 33 Old 10-01-2013, 02:25 PM
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I sit corrected ! smile.gif I was concentrating more on the audio and the screen in that room !

And rightly so....the audio was very impressive!!!
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post #16 of 33 Old 10-01-2013, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PF View Post

P.S. Now I know some of you are going to ask me, because there are so many JVC cheapskate fans here, and rightly so, how much better was the RS6710 than it's lower cost brethren? Is it really worth so much extra money?

To me, once you've seen the RS6710, you can never go back. Yes, it's that much better, that much more of a pleasure, that much more satisfying. Everyone wants a Mercedes S Class (especially the new one) for the price of a Toyota, but it doesn't exist. The RS6710 is a flagship projector that can hold its own on moderate sized screens with the best projectors in the world. The optics, the chip alignment, the calibration, just can't be matched at the lower JVC price points. If you have any path enabling you to stretch to the RS6710, do it. Put the extra cost on credit card, save up longer, buy used (but not too used). Do what you have to do. It's worth every penny.

While the optics are hand picked that doesn't mean a cheaper unit can't get a lens sample just as good as their top of the line projector. All the lenses are built to the same spec. Some come closer to that spec others do not. I'm assuming they sell very few flagship JVCs in comparison to the cheaper models which means there must be a lot more lenses that are close to spec overall compared to the amount that go into the flagship models. The handpicked parts don't guarantee anything when it comes to convergence. If you read Kris Deering's reviews of the X75 and X95 you'll see the X75 had better convergence. None of the units are calibrated perfect out the box including their top of the line model. Three out of the four models come with the built in CMS.

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post #17 of 33 Old 10-07-2013, 07:47 PM
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how many projectors are sold in that 10-30k range price?
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post #18 of 33 Old 10-07-2013, 08:06 PM
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Definitely enough to keep companies like Sim2 and Runco profitable, fund R&D, and bring new products to market. I don't understand the point of your question, though.

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post #19 of 33 Old 10-07-2013, 08:10 PM
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how many projectors are sold in that 10-30k range price?

I dont have any numbers, but thats a huge spread. When I worked at best buy back when Pioneer plasmas were $8-10K,we sold 1-2 a day for several years....and this was nit in a terribly effluent neighborhood. The US just gas an enormous amount of accumulated wealth. When Cornelius Vanderbuilt died, out of every 20 -$1 bills in the US, he owned 1. (Or 1/20 of the country's wealth) ...and he could have paid tge national debt off in cash.
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post #20 of 33 Old 10-07-2013, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Is the difference between the 6710 and the next model down just hand picked components? If so, then I agree with Toe. In my viewing, I have never seen that big of a difference.

Quote:
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5 yr vs. 2 yr, extra lamp

B.

Along with 5 year warranty, spare lamp, you get two pair of glasses and an emitter.

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post #21 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 06:53 AM
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I dont have any numbers, but thats a huge spread. When I worked at best buy back when Pioneer plasmas were $8-10K,we sold 1-2 a day for several years....and this was nit in a terribly effluent neighborhood .

I don't like the idea (or smell) of living in an effluent neighborhood, nit one bit

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post #22 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 07:09 AM
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I don't like the idea (or smell) of living in an effluent neighborhood, nit one bit

Dats what I'm talkin bout., smelly effluent hoods. No likey dem at all !!!!!!


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post #23 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 07:43 AM
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They are, in alphabetical but otherwise no particular order:

Digital Projection HIGHlite 330-3D-HC MSRP $29,995
Digital Projection M-Vision Cine 320-HB MSRP $9,995
JVC DLA-RS6710 (Emabassy Suites) MSRP $12,499
Runco LS-12HBd MSRP $29,995
Sony VPL-VW600ES MSRP $14,999

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post #24 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 09:34 AM
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Is it positive the Sony is substantially brighter (properly calibrated) than the new JVC? I would have assumed they are both approximately the same.
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post #25 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Is it positive the Sony is substantially brighter (properly calibrated) than the new JVC? I would have assumed they are both approximately the same.

Yes, Sony is brighter. No question about it.

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post #26 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 12:50 PM
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Thanks. The VW000ES is sold as a 2000 lumen projector and gets around 1200 calibrated lumens. The VW600ES is sold as a 1700 lumen projector which, using the same ratio would be around 1000 lumens calibrated. The RS65 gets around 900 calibrated and I'm assuming the RS67 would be similar. It will be interesting to see what the VW600ES actually measures out to.
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post #27 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Thanks. The VW000ES is sold as a 2000 lumen projector and gets around 1200 calibrated lumens. The VW600ES is sold as a 1700 lumen projector which, using the same ratio would be around 1000 lumens calibrated. The RS65 gets around 900 calibrated and I'm assuming the RS67 would be similar. It will be interesting to see what the VW600ES actually measures out to.

Where are you getting your 1,200 lumens? Short throw is going to get you several hundred more lumens than that. At a longer throw, you can end up with 1,200 lumens, but lumens will drop off on the other projectors also.

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post #28 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Thanks. The VW000ES is sold as a 2000 lumen projector and gets around 1200 calibrated lumens. The VW600ES is sold as a 1700 lumen projector which, using the same ratio would be around 1000 lumens calibrated. The RS65 gets around 900 calibrated and I'm assuming the RS67 would be similar. It will be interesting to see what the VW600ES actually measures out to.

Cine4home has already measured calibrated lumens on a pre-production VW600ES and surprisingly it turns out to calibrate brighter than expected.
They had the VW1000 calibrated a maximum brightness of just over 1640 lumens , and the VW600ES around 1,500 lumens calibrated .

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post #29 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

When I worked at best buy back when Pioneer plasmas were $8-10K,we sold 1-2 a day for several years....

I wouldn't base a judgement on potential pj sales on that, as the number of people who are willing/able to accommodate a flat panel is vastly more than a pj.

Noah
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post #30 of 33 Old 10-08-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Cine4home has already measured calibrated lumens on a pre-production VW600ES and surprisingly it turns out to calibrate brighter than expected.
They had the VW1000 calibrated a maximum brightness of just over 1640 lumens , and the VW600ES around 1,500 lumens calibrated .

Oh that's great to hear then. I googled a projectorreviews review for the 1200 calibrated lumens.

I'll be trying to light up a 10.5' wide acoustically transparent screen and was thinking 900 lumens is marginal at best. 1500 should be plenty.
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