Would you purchase a used Sim2 HT3000? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi I'm new to projectors and there's a local HT shop that as a Sim2 HT3000 used or a good price. Not to familiar wih Sim2 , all I know is that they are high end and have a great picture. Would it be worth the risk to take a chance on this unit or should I pay the extra to go after a new unit with warranty like a Jvc, Epson or Sony ES.
Thanks for your help.
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post #2 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 03:36 PM
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It depends on your taste. The HT3000 won't be able to compete in regards to contrast performance at all. It won't even be close. The area where it should be better is with native motion handling and a slightly sharper picture over a JVC, Sony, and Epson projector. Personally, unless you were getting an awesome deal ( less than $1500), I would go with something else. Especially if it doesn't come with a warranty.

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post #3 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Seegs
Thanks for your response. The projector is around 1200 but with no warranty. So maybe I should go new and save the hassle. Now which one?
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post #4 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 04:28 PM
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Its also worth noting that the HT3000 doesn't have the unishape lamp dimming feature to boost dynamic contrast (Introduced with the HT3000E). I could be wrong but I think the HT3000 came with a Darkchip3 chip whereas the HT3000E came with Darkchip4, although the practical difference might not be very much.
Like Seegs said, unless its a great deal there are other options, although I would still say that around $2000 is still a decent price. Any more than that and you might want to start looking at LED DLP models in the used market.

Speaking of used projectors and potential upgrades, what are you thinking of getting next Dylan?

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post #5 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msullivan View Post

Seegs
Thanks for your response. The projector is around 1200 but with no warranty. So maybe I should go new and save the hassle. Now which one?

Personally I think that's quite a decent price, I doubt you would find any new projectors that would match the quality for that but obviously its an old model and there is risk involved.

In terms of new models any particular needs/preferences?

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post #6 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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First if it makes a difference it's a HT3000LT. I have no particular needs per say. I'm redoing my basement and I'm looking at a 100 or so inch screen. Sitting distance about 12-15. 3d is not a necessity so as long it has a nice picture in light and dark area then that's it.

Thanks again
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post #7 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msullivan View Post

First if it makes a difference it's a HT3000LT. I have no particular needs per say. I'm redoing my basement and I'm looking at a 100 or so inch screen. Sitting distance about 12-15. 3d is not a necessity so as long it has a nice picture in light and dark area then that's it.

Thanks again

I think the LT refers to long throw lens. If you're looking for a great picture with both light and dark areas this is not the projector for you. Something like the a JVC would be great for that as the contrast ratio is a step above anything out there. For $1500 I've seen JVC DLA-RS40's go for that price which is a steal and I think would offer better overall picture quality. If you can bump your budget up to $2000 you can get a newer b-stock JVC with a warranty from AVScience. Give them a call.

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post #8 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Seegs

Thanks!! My budget is around 2500 for a projector, so if I can save 500 that would awesome and I could put that towards the screen.
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post #9 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 05:34 PM
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I'd give Mike or Craig at AVScience a call. AVScience is the sister site to AVSForum. They can give you plenty of advice on what to buy with your budget. I know they can get you a great deal on a JVC DLA-RS40 or RS45 (which comes with a full warranty). For $2500 I don't think there is another projector out there that can match the 2D picture quality within that price range. The Sim2 model isn't a bad product at all, but that unit will definitely be showing it's age in terms of advances in picture quality that today's projectors have. The biggest of those differences will be contrast performance and the JVC has that trait in spades.

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post #10 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Seegs

Thanks for you help!!!!
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post #11 of 37 Old 10-01-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Msullivan View Post

Seegs

Thanks!! My budget is around 2500 for a projector, so if I can save 500 that would awesome and I could put that towards the screen.

Sent you a PM. smile.gif

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post #12 of 37 Old 10-05-2013, 08:36 AM
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$1200? I'd snap it up! Hell, you could probably flip it for $3k. I would pay you $2k to replace my old SIM2 hT300 Plus without even thinking. That being said, my old PJ still works fantastically, never had a problem with it. I would like to go 1080P but 720P with my anamorphic lens is stilling giving me a great home theater experience. I love these SIM2 projectors.
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post #13 of 37 Old 10-05-2013, 08:40 AM
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Maybe if it was a HT3000E. I don't think the HT3000 would sell for that much.

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post #14 of 37 Old 10-05-2013, 10:45 AM
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It was an HT3000E - the person who listed the auction provided an incorrect model number. One of his pictures was of the tag with the serial number, and it very clearly said HT3000E, T1 lens. I don't think I've ever heard of an HT3000LT in the US, and nothing turned up on the Sim2 website when I did a search. The projector ended up going for $3K in the last seconds of the auction.

FWIW, no JVC commercial model can touch the ANSI contrast, sharpness, or uniformity of the HT3000E, and this is readily apparent with bright, well-mastered HD material (especially CGI). The Sim2 won't come close to any JVC's black levels, but it visibly trumps the JVC in other areas. I've owned two HT3000E's, and had opportunities to A/B them against an RS35 and an RS55, and the two threw very different pictures that were both excellent in their own way. If I could combine the strengths of both units, that would be pretty close to an ideal front projector for me. In the end I have a heavy bias towards on/off black levels, and I've stuck with my JVCs both times. But for people who prefer the look of DLP, the HT3000E is still a phenomenal unit in many aspects.

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post #15 of 37 Old 10-24-2013, 07:20 PM
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Ha! Small world. I ended up buying this Sim2 3000e T1 off ebay today. Sold my InFocus SP8602 and bought the Sim2 for EVEN MONEY! I'm hoping for better blacks but I won't be disappointed if not, I know I'll be happier with the sharpness, brightness, color and the....sharpness, as the lens for the Sim2 retailed for more than I paid for the InFocus. Anyone know what effect the T1 lens has on image?
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post #16 of 37 Old 10-24-2013, 07:26 PM
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Was this a recent HT3000e or the one that sold 2 weeks ago? This should smoke the 8602. The one from 2 weeks ago was tempting but have to put the pennies aside for the sony.

good luck with it, let us know how it looks when you get it set up.


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post #17 of 37 Old 10-24-2013, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

Ha! Small world. I ended up buying this Sim2 3000e T1 off ebay today. Sold my InFocus SP8602 and bought the Sim2 for EVEN MONEY! I'm hoping for better blacks but I won't be disappointed if not, I know I'll be happier with the sharpness, brightness, color and the....sharpness, as the lens for the Sim2 retailed for more than I paid for the InFocus. Anyone know what effect the T1 lens has on image?

I saw that listing and was tempted to snatch it up. From what I've read, Sim2 uses this same T1 (and T2) lens for several of their DLP projectors. What this means is that the lens isn't designed and made specifically for each projector being produced. What this means is that you can expect more than average chromatic aberrations. If you check the picture in the auction where he shows the projector info (lamp hours, serial/firmware number ect) you can see quite a bit of CA. That doesn't mean it will be that visible with real content at actual viewing distance. It shouldn't too much of an issue but probably noticeable. So I don't think the image will be razor sharp like a Marantz projector, but it should be a definite step up over your InFocus. Black level will probably be step down because it doesn't include a dynamic iris or manual iris to adjust image brightness. They should be more than adequate though.

The interesting thing is that the image has a very high native contrast ratio of about 7500:1 and from what I've read this specific unit might be using a DC4 chip which I've heard Sim2 placed in all their projector lines around the summer of 2009. This unit was made in Fall 2009 so it will most likely have the DC4 chip so you can expect an extra 20% contrast performance. ANSI contrast should also be around 700:1 which is excellent.

Overall this should be a very nice upgrade over the InFocus. Sim2 knows their stuff.

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post #18 of 37 Old 10-25-2013, 08:41 AM
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Yeah, the HT3000e is DC4, the 'e' models have unishape lamp dimming as opposed to dynamic iris so should be able to help in dark scenes

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post #19 of 37 Old 10-25-2013, 01:50 PM
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If you guys are correct about the DC4 then I'm ecstatic! Several other places have stated it has the DC3, but no one really knows as Sim2 doesnt like to advertise this info. (And the truth is, if Sim2 DC3 was implemented perfectly it could be better than poor implementation of DC4, of say, Optoma). I specifically asked the seller prior to purchase if that red fringing was CA, and he said it was just a poor photo and the actual image had almost unnoticeable CA from close up and totally invisible from further out (and perfect edge-to-exge focus). As there were some inconsistencies in the listing vs. the photos ("e" ver. Vs. "LT") he confirmed it was an "e" but said the contrast was about 5000:1, which isnt consistent with the literature on this one (>6500:1). I've corresponded with Jeff Meier (UMR here) who has own one for several years and he says its unbelievably good (and that he's had some Sim2 customers upgrade to a non-Sim 4K that returned the 4K's for looking "soft"). I bought this as a stopgap until 4K gets cheap, but Im thinking I might fall in love w/S2 quality and then have to cash in the kids college funds to buy the 4K Sim2 (when it comes out). Anyway, I sit 14' from a 106" screen and have my doubts to whether I'd be able to discern much difference in 4K vs. 2K (and I have laser-corrected 20/16).

Either way, Im convinced I just traded a Mazda Miata for a Ferrari F40, just hope I dont run across any $10,000 oil changes)

Thanks again to all for the help and information. I will post when I get it all set up and tweaked.
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post #20 of 37 Old 10-25-2013, 02:56 PM
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After digging around and trying to find an actual reference it may be that I am wrong about the DC4 but I know that when the 'e' revision came out they replaced the DC3 chip with DC4 on the HT5000e. The D80e still had DC3 but I seem to remember various threads and other info stating the HT3000e had DC4... Regardless, I am pretty sure the DC3s used in Sim2's (then) flagship single-chip would be picked and tested.
The original HT3000 was advertised with a contrast ratio of 6500:1

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post #21 of 37 Old 10-25-2013, 06:08 PM
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I'm going off of a post a memeber posted here stating that in the summer of 2009 they made the switch and placed DC4s in any projector that had a .95" DMD. Your unit was made in the fall of 2009 so it should have it. I'm sure you could call Sim2 and get confirmation.

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post #22 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 12:54 AM
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The HT3000E is a DC3 machine - only the HT3000E HOST is a DC4 machine. Regardless, they both throw one hell of a picture and I'm sure you'll be quite happy with it.

Regarding the lens info...I'm not sure where anyone read that all Sim2 T1 lenses are the same, but if you've ever seen an HT3000E lens and a C3X lens in person, you'll immediately see that they're quite different (the C3X lenses are considerably larger). Although they use the same T1/T2/T3 designation, all info I've seen indicates that they're model-specific lenses. Having plenty of personal experience with the HT3000E T1 model, I can tell you that the amount of CA is almost nil, and certainly not visible from normal seating distances. If there's CA in any of those pictures, it's far more likely that it's due to the camera lens than to the projector lens, as the latter is probably several times more expensive than the entire camera being used.

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post #23 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 04:40 AM
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I didn't say they were all the same T1. I realize it's just a designation. The lens used in the HT3000E is used on other models. There is CA on this model. Check out the some of the other 3000E threads and owners will say it's definitely there in a larger than usual amount and it's for the reason mentioned earlier. You can see it in the photos of the unit just purchased. A camera would not add that much. Also it's most likely DC4, as I said already, they seemed to switch over to DC4 on all models on the production line past summer 2009.

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post #24 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 05:03 AM
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Perhaps you could share what other projectors use the HT3000E's lenses? The Domino line could potentially share the HT3000E's lens, but that alone is no reason to condemn the lens, which is more expensive than many entire projectors.

In the same vein, using screen shots to analyze CA is like using a recording of speakers to determine their frequency response - it's useless. The camera introduces several extra optical elements into the equation, and unless pictures are being taken under incredibly controlled conditions with very high quality sensors/glass, it's almost impossible to capture a projector's CA performance without inducing more with the camera. Add on top of that the fact that I've owned two HT3000E's, and this "ton of CA" that you're going on about simply doesn't exist. If you've seen an HT3000E with a "ton of CA" then you saw a defective model. No need for you to continue on with this "ton of CA" nonsense, it's simply not true.

Regarding the DC3 to DC4 switch, again some official documentation would be useful rather than parroting what someone else said once.

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post #25 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 06:24 AM
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Again, I never said the lens was bad. I'm not condemning anything. I'm simply saying there is more CA on this model compared to most other single chip DLPs. It will resolve pixels far better than most projectors which speaks a lot to the quality of it. It's multi use application is it's only flaw.

I'm also not going on camera shots alone. Several owners have commented about excessive CA compared to other projectors they've owned. My D80 had quite a bit and uses the same lens as the 3000E. Was my unit defective?

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post #26 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 06:25 AM
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How much are bulbs now for this projector?
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post #27 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 07:20 AM
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I think AVScience is a Sim2 dealer and should be able to hook you up with a genuine replacement with a competitive price. Give Mike or Craig a call. I know they had the best price on genuine Marantz bulbs that were hundreds less than the competition.

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post #28 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Again, I never said the lens was bad. I'm not condemning anything. I'm simply saying there is more CA on this model compared to most other single chip DLPs. It will resolve pixels far better than most projectors which speaks a lot to the quality of it. It's multi use application is it's only flaw.

I'm also not going on camera shots alone. Several owners have commented about excessive CA compared to other projectors they've owned. My D80 had quite a bit and uses the same lens as the 3000E. Was my unit defective?

I haven't seen any such comments publicly posted, and "most other single chip DLPs" encompasses a ridiculously wide range of projectors, most of which couldn't compare positively in any fashion to the HT3000E. Both the units I owned had impressively low levels of CA. Sorry to hear about your experience with your D80.

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post #29 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

I haven't seen any such comments publicly posted, and "most other single chip DLPs" encompasses a ridiculously wide range of projectors, most of which couldn't compare positively in any fashion to the HT3000E. Both the units I owned had impressively low levels of CA. Sorry to hear about your experience with your D80.

I should rephrase that and say that most similarly priced competition have better lenses in regards to CA. Among those are the Marantz VP-11S1 (11S2), VP-15S1, Sharp XV-Z20000, Planar PD8150, Samsung SP-A800B (and 900B), InFocus IN82/IN83, BenQ W20000. I have owned all of these models and had less CA. I can confidently say that the CA shows up more on the Sim2 and I don't really care if you agree with me or not. Please do a search for the 3000 and 3000E and you will find members saying this. This lens is used on the 3000, 3000E, D80, D80E, D75, and HT380. Those are the ones I'm aware of and there could be more. I haven't been following along to with their current line of products.

It should be noted that while there is "more" CA, that doesn't mean it will be an issue and I never meant to make it sound like it was. I was just trying to point out that because the lens isn't designed for the specific light path behind it can cause issues with CA. Obviously Sim2 has a tolerance level and it shouldn't be so much where it's visible from a normal viewing distance, and it isn't. I don't understand why you're arguing about this. I was in no way trying to say the 3000E is a bad product. I'm just stating one aspect of the projector isn't perfect.

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post #30 of 37 Old 10-26-2013, 11:05 AM
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I've had the opportunity to evaluate the HT3000E and the W20K side-by-side, and the former blows the latter away in terms of sharpness and lack of CA. The optics on the W20K - which is a good machine for its price - aren't anywhere near the same league as those on the HT3000E. Cheaper optics lend a fuzzier picture which tend to mask CA quite a bit. I wish I had some test patterns to show, but I do have these pics:

HT3000E


W20K


You can see how the optics on the W20K almost completely obfuscates any CA; it is more apparent on the HT3000E, despite the fact that the latter produces less. I've seen the 11S1 and 15S1 separately from the HT3000E, but my memory doesn't serve me well enough to compare the CA on the 3 units. I can say I was impressed with the optics on all 3 and the lack of CA.

I'm also using a DPI iVision30-1080p as my monitor to type this right now, and it also has a pretty low amount of CA. All 4 of the projectors that I've mentioned have zero perceivable CA from normal seating distances, and blow away 99% of projectors out there in terms of sharpness and CA. It's something I certainly wish that JVCs could magically couple with their black levels and lack of rainbows, but of course that will never happen.

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