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post #181 of 248 Old 04-01-2015, 04:15 AM
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Manni,.Kelvin....

I sent my Spyder Pro back and replaced with Spyder Elite.
For JVC v1.01 autocal is OK if my Lumagen stay in the link at factory default?RGB colorspace?.
It is better to select the YCbCr 4:2:2?,as this being my prefered colorspace from my Lumagen output.
It is important the colorspace for autocal JVC v1.01.
When Lumagen is out of the link what is the default colorspace used by JVC when perform the autocal with v1.01?
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post #182 of 248 Old 04-01-2015, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus74 View Post
Manni,.Kelvin....

I sent my Spyder Pro back and replaced with Spyder Elite.
For JVC v1.01 autocal is OK if my Lumagen stay in the link at factory default?RGB colorspace?.
It is better to select the YCbCr 4:2:2?,as this being my prefered colorspace from my Lumagen output.
It is important the colorspace for autocal JVC v1.01.
When Lumagen is out of the link what is the default colorspace used by JVC when perform the autocal with v1.01?

An Elite doesn't give you anything over a Pro, in fact it can be worse (mine was). Swapping with a different Pro would be just as efficient (and less costly). The only difference between the Elite and the Pro is the software, which we don't use. They are not more accurate as far as I can see, but I haven't tested enough (just one of each). In my experience you're just as likely to get a better Elite as you are to get a better Pro.


YCB422 is recommended with the Lumagen, but you should check what works best with your sources and display. You can use the Spears and Munsil disk to evaluate the best colourspace. As far as I know it doesn't make any difference with the JVC software as long as your levels are correct.


I don't have a Lumagen in the chain so I use RGB Full 4:4:4 10 bits from the HTPC, my main source (AMD HD7870).
It's your source that causes the JVC to choose a colour space or another (supposing it's set to Auto in the JVC).
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post #183 of 248 Old 04-01-2015, 05:24 AM
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Thanks Manni,

Harry has pointed that his Elite, was much better than the Pro version,even those from Cine4home used the Spyder Elite version in their autocal session.
Maybe you are right regarding being the same meter,and this is true,the difference being the software used in both,but the difference in price are minimal,so i said why not?
Right now i am more confused why i have a much better results using my D3 Pro alone vs profiled to eye1pro2 spectro.
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post #184 of 248 Old 04-02-2015, 04:22 AM
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Hi Maxi, Manni,

just let me say, that I'm sure that my Spy4Pro was not OK. Mainly the measurement of green was way off. I've complained that to datacolor and got it replaced by an Elite - this one is also not really perfect (verified with K10-A and i1Pro2), but its deviations are symmetrical on R|G|B channels.

Anyway I just want to get my X75 as good as possible pre-calibrated when using the JVC PJ autocal SW (for precision cal I've a 2143 Radiance in chain) - and with some little optical "tweaks" the JVC autocal result for 709 and "DCI" is pretty much ok now! Last days I`ve done that precal again. Using my own method I've got not only a perfect Gamma 2.2, but also the WP is very very close to D65 in Grayscale from down to top and the 100% R|G|B saturation is also good in range of 1 ... 100% stimuli.

In short:
I've attached an Edmund Optics diffuser (accesory of my old Chroma5 probe) in front of the Spy4Elite. As I wrote long time before, first I've placed the Spy4 on a distance of ~3000...3500 cd/m² in front of the PJ, but after many testings now I ended up on 5000cd/m² (reference = JVC internal 100% white patch) to get more perfect results in low light cal.

A word about the JVC AutoCal SW:
Because of the relatively unaccurate Spy4 probe it's not really important what the JVC grayscale chart will show as autocal result - it's more of interest, what a calibrated probe does. So immediately after every Gamma33pt or Color autocal I always check the result using my K10-A and LightSpace/CalMAN before "saving". Due to the shadow on the screen caused by the Spy4 therefor I placed the K10-A to read the reflection of the left side/centre of the screen (of course for final calibration using the Radiance I align it to read from the screens centre).

Note: Because of the "glossy-like" surface, the Diffuser makes some light reflection and that maybe could negatively impact the autocal caused by back-reflection into the PJ's lens-system. So I've aligned the Spy4 on an angle to reflect upwards the PJ and.the reflection ends on kind of a black foam material, placed above the PJ.

If anyone is interested in, I can add some photos here.

[Edit: 4:2:0 -> 4:2:2 !]
About bit-depth:
The JVC PJ's and Radiance just only work in 12 bit when set HDMI to YCbCr4:2:2. If you set the Radiance HDMI Out at mode RGB or YCbCr4:4:4, bit-depth is only 8 bit between Radiance and JVC! So I recommend everyone to set the VPs In/Out at YCbCr4:2:2. Setting the Players HDMI Out to YCbCr4:4.4 should also work, because the Radiance will convert that into 4:2:2 first.
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_________
Regards,
Harry

Last edited by *Harry*; 06-19-2015 at 09:57 AM.
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post #185 of 248 Old 06-18-2015, 10:07 AM
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Hi everyone,

I had to rerun the JVC Autrocal after 650 hours and I thought I'd update my findings in one post:

- Preparation:
1) A Datacolor Elite isn't necessary and can be as good, as bad or worse as any Pro unit. The only difference is software, and as we don't need the Datacolor software, it really doesn't matter. If you get a bad pro (when checking with a more reliable, ideally reference meter and another software like Calman or CP), just send it back for a replacement and get another one until you get a good one. I tried to get an Elite and it measured worse than the Pro. So save your $$$. The latest JVC models need the Spyder 4 Pro. I don't think the Spyder 3 is compatible with the latest version of the software.
2) After you've installed the Datacolor software to get the drivers for the Spyder meter, make sure the Datacolor utility isn't loaded in memory, it interacts with the JVC software. You only need to install the Datacolor software for the drivers. You don't even need to activate the software. Also make sure you don't have any IP remote running on an iPhone/iPad/android like iRule, as it will interfere too. Make sure for example that iRule isn't loaded in any of the devices connected to the network.
3) Make sure that the environment settings in the JVC menus are disabled. The JVC Autocal doesn't work if they are enabled.
4) Once the JVC software is running, especially once you've entered the calibration section, only use the software to control the PJ. If you use the remote, the changes you make with the remote won't be taken into account by the software which will lead to issues.

- Meter:
1) Unless you only want to autocal one user mode with specific settings, I suggest you set the iris fully open in the JVC and when positioning the driver, make sure that you put it as close to the PJ as possible, without getting outside of the "safety rectangle" shown by the software before calibration.

- Calibration:
1) If you want to create a custom gamut with the JVC software, for example a rec-709 one, or if using the filter on the higher models a DCI one, do so, load it into a custom gamut location, but note that this custom gamut can only be calibrated for color. Any gamma calibration will be ignored.

If you want to fully calibrate the projector, here is the process I recommend:

PHASE 1: Gamma calibration (and color calibration for first iris/CMD position):
0) In the settings, select gamma + color. Select how detailed you want the gamma calibration to be. I select High for 33 steps, as this only needs to be run ONCE.
1) Select a standard color profile, like standard or cinema, whichever you plan to use/want to calibrate. If you use user modes, this is the profile you will select in your user mode. But to calibrate, select it directly, don't select a user mode or a custom gamut.
2) Select gamma normal (all the gamma presets are calibrated, so better take the most standard one).
3) Select 6500K color temp (all the color temp presets are calibrated, so better select the most standard one).
4) Check that the iris is fully open (best position to calibrate gamma) and that CMD is off. Set filter to off as well unless you want to calibrate a DCI custom colour profile.
5) Run the calibration.
6) Once it's done, check that there is no - after either the gamma, color temp or gamut. This means this part of the calibration has been ignored and won't be corrected. Check that your gamma line is a straight line, that the color temp points are near D65. Gamut won't be properly corrected for most standard profiles, which is why you'll probably need to create a custom colour profile and calibrate it later. So you can ignore if gamut looks oversaturated. Most important at this stage is the gamma correction: the "after" line should be straight.
7) Save the calibration. Make sure that you save the backup file (with INIT in the name) in a safe place, as restoring that file is the only way to go back. A factory reset in the service menu Doesn't reverse the autocal changes. These changes are PERMANENT.

PHASE 2: Calibration of the various iris and CMD settings
Because the JVC Autocal only corrects one iris position range and CMD setting at a time, you need to either calibrate the settings you use, or be systematic and calibrate the whole range of AP value, with and without CMD if you use CMD.
0) Go to settings and deselect gamma. Gamma only needs to be run once.
1) Go back to calibrate, and as we selected iris fully open (0) and no CMD, go down the range without CMD and back up the range with CMD. The effective ranges are slightly different but I use 0, -5, -10 and -15 as they are easy to remember and cover all the positions that have to be calibrated. If you don't do that, when you change the iris settings the greyscale will be wrong.
2) As iris open (0) / no CMD was done in PHASE 1, I then select the following settings for Lens AP:
-5 and calibrate (the process is much faster as only colour is selected, it's the gamma that takes the longer, especially if 33 steps/high was selected). Then I save.
-10 (calibrate) (save)
-15 (calibrate) (save)
3) I then switch to CMD On, calibrate and save (without changing Lens AP)
4) Then I go back up the lens AP settings, keeping CMD On:
-10 (calibrate) (save)
-5 (same)
0 (same).

PHASE 3: color calibration for custom color profiles
Once you've done this, you have calibrated the standard color profile you had selected (say standard or cinema) for all lens AP settings, with or without CMD, for all gamma presets and all color temp presets.
Also, user modes using this standard colour profile will be calibrated too.
So, if you select user 1 with standard, a custom gamma using the 2.4 preset and a custom color temp using the 7000K preset, it will be calibrated.

However, what you need to do is run a color only calibration, just once, for each standard or custom color profile you use.

I suggest you select the lens AP and CMD setting you are most likely to use for extra accuracy with these settings, but you only need to do this once.

For example, say you have created a rec709 custom color profile and uploaded it to custom1, you simply have to select custom1 as the color profile and run the calibration.

If, in a user2 preset, you select custom1 colour profile, gamma 2.6 and color temp 6500K, it should be calibrated already due to the previous steps.

That's it!

From this baseline, I get near reference calibration for all my sources (all dEs under 2.8 with colorchecker SG, average dE under 1.5).
I use a BT1886 target gamma and only have to change the dark gamma control (2 notches) to get a near perfect BT1886 gamma curve.

If I then run a lightning LUT for MadVR with Calman, in 5-10 minutes (it only needs 65 points) I get a reference calibration for my HTPC with a max dE under 1.5 and an average dE under 1 for colorchecker SG. I double checked with a custom Colorchecker XXL with more than 1000 points and the whole cube is at reference level. With a 65 points / 5-10mn LUT, instead of the 17x17x17 (4913 points / 2-4 hours) that I needed with my old X30 to get results not as good).

I hope this helps. Please let me know if I got any of the former is wrong or if you experience a different behaviour, but that's what I observed when I redid my calibration.

The most important point is that trying to select a custom gamut would not allow to correct gamma. A standard color profile has to be selected for gamma to be corrected.

Last edited by Manni01; 06-19-2015 at 07:57 AM.
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post #186 of 248 Old 06-19-2015, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post
Hi Maxi, Manni,

About bit-depth:
The JVC PJ's and Radiance just only work in 12 bit when set HDMI to YCbCr4:2:0. If you set the Radiance HDMI Out at mode RGB or YCbCr4:4:4, bit-depth is only 8 bit between Radiance and JVC! So I recommend everyone to set the VPs In/Out at YCbCr4:2:0. Setting the Players HDMI Out to YCbCr4:4.4 should also work, because the Radiance will convert that into 4:2:0 first.
Thanks Harry
My Dune Base 3D have only YCbCr 4:4:4.
If i select on my Mini 3D out, YCbCr 4:2:2 the bit depth on my X500 is blank-as i have no values,if i select YCbCr 4:4:4 the bith depth is 8.
It is better to select YCbCr 4:2:0 on my Mini 3D output? or YCbCr 4:4:4 ?
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post #187 of 248 Old 06-19-2015, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus74 View Post
Thanks Harry
My Dune Base 3D have only YCbCr 4:4:4.
If i select on my Mini 3D out, YCbCr 4:2:2 the bit depth on my X500 is blank-as i have no values,if i select YCbCr 4:4:4 the bith depth is 8.
It is better to select YCbCr 4:2:0 on my Mini 3D output? or YCbCr 4:4:4 ?

It's better to select ycbcr 4:2:2 [corrected] out with the mini from a video source such as the dune or a BD Player as it means you get maximal internal precision for the calculations. The bit depth is blank because it's always 12bits in ycb422.


I have a Dune too and I used YCB 4:4:4 from the dune into the Mini and YCB 422 out to the JVC. This is what got me the best results in this configuration.


Make sure the AVR doesn't do any video conversion though and is set to pass-through.

Last edited by Manni01; 06-19-2015 at 10:38 AM.
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post #188 of 248 Old 06-19-2015, 04:12 AM
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Thanks Manni,
I have tha same configuration as you,with YCbCr 4:2:2 out from my Mini 3D to my X500,with the bit depth blank,but i wondered if is not better to use YCbCr 4:2:0 out from my Mini.
My Yamaha RX-A 3040 was always set to Source Direct,without any video conversion.
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post #189 of 248 Old 06-19-2015, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by maximus74 View Post
Thanks Manni,
I have tha same configuration as you,with YCbCr 4:2:2 out from my Mini 3D to my X500,with the bit depth blank,but i wondered if is not better to use YCbCr 4:2:0 out from my Mini.
My Yamaha RX-A 3040 was always set to Source Direct,without any video conversion.
You can't use YCB4:2:0 from the mini. It's HDMI 1.4 and 4:2:0 isn't supported, it has to be converted to 4:2:2 before being sent over HDMI. There is no advantage doing so anyway as the mini upconverts the 4:2:0 content on bluray to 4:2:2 internally, so you would just be adding an unnecessary downconversion.

Support for 4:2:0 was added to HDMI 2.0 to save bandwidth for 4K at 50/60p over HDMI 1.4 bandwidth and lift the limitation to 30p. It's the only profile that was added to HDMI 2.0 level B (which still uses the same bandwidth as HDMI 1.4).

The JVC would support that profile, but as the mini doesn't and as there is no advantage in 1080p as there is no such bandwidth limitation, you can forget about it.

This is seriously off-topic here so please post in the Lumagen forum or in a Radiance thread if you have more questions .

Last edited by Manni01; 06-19-2015 at 04:58 AM.
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post #190 of 248 Old 06-19-2015, 05:05 AM
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Thanks again Manni
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post #191 of 248 Old 06-19-2015, 10:06 AM
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Jesus - have noticed that bad mistake in my last post only now - of course YCbCr "4:2:0" was wrong, JVC's YCbCr input is 4:2:2, so the Radiance HDMI out should be set to that for a 12-bit signal.

_________
Regards,
Harry

Last edited by *Harry*; 06-19-2015 at 10:23 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post
Jesus - have noticed that bad mistake in my last post only now - of course YCbCr "4:2:0" was wrong, JVC's YCbCr input is 4:2:2, so the Radiance HDMI out should be set to that for a 12-bit signal.
Don't worry, I hadn't noticed either and I made the same mistake (now corrected) in my first reply to Maximus.
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Thanks to both of you
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post #194 of 248 Old 06-28-2015, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi everyone,

I had to rerun the JVC Autrocal after 650 hours and I thought I'd update my findings in one post:

- Preparation:
1) A Datacolor Elite isn't necessary and can be as good, as bad or worse as any Pro unit. The only difference is software, and as we don't need the Datacolor software, it really doesn't matter. If you get a bad pro (when checking with a more reliable, ideally reference meter and another software like Calman or CP), just send it back for a replacement and get another one until you get a good one. I tried to get an Elite and it measured worse than the Pro. So save your $$$. The latest JVC models need the Spyder 4 Pro. I don't think the Spyder 3 is compatible with the latest version of the software.
2) After you've installed the Datacolor software to get the drivers for the Spyder meter, make sure the Datacolor utility isn't loaded in memory, it interacts with the JVC software. You only need to install the Datacolor software for the drivers. You don't even need to activate the software. Also make sure you don't have any IP remote running on an iPhone/iPad/android like iRule, as it will interfere too. Make sure for example that iRule isn't loaded in any of the devices connected to the network.
3) Make sure that the environment settings in the JVC menus are disabled. The JVC Autocal doesn't work if they are enabled.
4) Once the JVC software is running, especially once you've entered the calibration section, only use the software to control the PJ. If you use the remote, the changes you make with the remote won't be taken into account by the software which will lead to issues.

- Meter:
1) Unless you only want to autocal one user mode with specific settings, I suggest you set the iris fully open in the JVC and when positioning the driver, make sure that you put it as close to the PJ as possible, without getting outside of the "safety rectangle" shown by the software before calibration.

- Calibration:
1) If you want to create a custom gamut with the JVC software, for example a rec-709 one, or if using the filter on the higher models a DCI one, do so, load it into a custom gamut location, but note that this custom gamut can only be calibrated for color. Any gamma calibration will be ignored.

If you want to fully calibrate the projector, here is the process I recommend:

PHASE 1: Gamma calibration (and color calibration for first iris/CMD position):
0) In the settings, select gamma + color. Select how detailed you want the gamma calibration to be. I select High for 33 steps, as this only needs to be run ONCE.
1) Select a standard color profile, like standard or cinema, whichever you plan to use/want to calibrate. If you use user modes, this is the profile you will select in your user mode. But to calibrate, select it directly, don't select a user mode or a custom gamut.
2) Select gamma normal (all the gamma presets are calibrated, so better take the most standard one).
3) Select 6500K color temp (all the color temp presets are calibrated, so better select the most standard one).
4) Check that the iris is fully open (best position to calibrate gamma) and that CMD is off. Set filter to off as well unless you want to calibrate a DCI custom colour profile.
5) Run the calibration.
6) Once it's done, check that there is no - after either the gamma, color temp or gamut. This means this part of the calibration has been ignored and won't be corrected. Check that your gamma line is a straight line, that the color temp points are near D65. Gamut won't be properly corrected for most standard profiles, which is why you'll probably need to create a custom colour profile and calibrate it later. So you can ignore if gamut looks oversaturated. Most important at this stage is the gamma correction: the "after" line should be straight.
7) Save the calibration. Make sure that you save the backup file (with INIT in the name) in a safe place, as restoring that file is the only way to go back. A factory reset in the service menu Doesn't reverse the autocal changes. These changes are PERMANENT.

PHASE 2: Calibration of the various iris and CMD settings
Because the JVC Autocal only corrects one iris position range and CMD setting at a time, you need to either calibrate the settings you use, or be systematic and calibrate the whole range of AP value, with and without CMD if you use CMD.
0) Go to settings and deselect gamma. Gamma only needs to be run once.
1) Go back to calibrate, and as we selected iris fully open (0) and no CMD, go down the range without CMD and back up the range with CMD. The effective ranges are slightly different but I use 0, -5, -10 and -15 as they are easy to remember and cover all the positions that have to be calibrated. If you don't do that, when you change the iris settings the greyscale will be wrong.
2) As iris open (0) / no CMD was done in PHASE 1, I then select the following settings for Lens AP:
-5 and calibrate (the process is much faster as only colour is selected, it's the gamma that takes the longer, especially if 33 steps/high was selected). Then I save.
-10 (calibrate) (save)
-15 (calibrate) (save)
3) I then switch to CMD On, calibrate and save (without changing Lens AP)
4) Then I go back up the lens AP settings, keeping CMD On:
-10 (calibrate) (save)
-5 (same)
0 (same).

PHASE 3: color calibration for custom color profiles
Once you've done this, you have calibrated the standard color profile you had selected (say standard or cinema) for all lens AP settings, with or without CMD, for all gamma presets and all color temp presets.
Also, user modes using this standard colour profile will be calibrated too.
So, if you select user 1 with standard, a custom gamma using the 2.4 preset and a custom color temp using the 7000K preset, it will be calibrated.

However, what you need to do is run a color only calibration, just once, for each standard or custom color profile you use.

I suggest you select the lens AP and CMD setting you are most likely to use for extra accuracy with these settings, but you only need to do this once.

For example, say you have created a rec709 custom color profile and uploaded it to custom1, you simply have to select custom1 as the color profile and run the calibration.

If, in a user2 preset, you select custom1 colour profile, gamma 2.6 and color temp 6500K, it should be calibrated already due to the previous steps.

That's it!

From this baseline, I get near reference calibration for all my sources (all dEs under 2.8 with colorchecker SG, average dE under 1.5).
I use a BT1886 target gamma and only have to change the dark gamma control (2 notches) to get a near perfect BT1886 gamma curve.

If I then run a lightning LUT for MadVR with Calman, in 5-10 minutes (it only needs 65 points) I get a reference calibration for my HTPC with a max dE under 1.5 and an average dE under 1 for colorchecker SG. I double checked with a custom Colorchecker XXL with more than 1000 points and the whole cube is at reference level. With a 65 points / 5-10mn LUT, instead of the 17x17x17 (4913 points / 2-4 hours) that I needed with my old X30 to get results not as good).

I hope this helps. Please let me know if I got any of the former is wrong or if you experience a different behaviour, but that's what I observed when I redid my calibration.

The most important point is that trying to select a custom gamut would not allow to correct gamma. A standard color profile has to be selected for gamma to be corrected.

Ran this last night and not only did it make it possible to calibrate greyscale to an average DE of.7 by just adjusting the gains a few clicks, but gamma now track flat AND I can now resolve down to digital 17 with brightness and contrast left at 0, a gamma correction 0f 2.3 (which tracks closer to 2.4) and setting the dark tone to +2. Gamut seems improved as well with an average DE of 1.8

It would have taken hours to get these results without running autocal first.


Here is my question(s):

1) Say you use the standard color profile and it is tracking ok so you don't want to mess with it, but you do want to correct greyscale. Since color does both gamut and grayscale, would it be a better idea to run autocal with a color profile you don't use...say stage? Would that correct grayscale globally yet leave the standard color profile alone?

2) I almost had a heart attack because I expected the init file to be something I was prompted where to save. I quickly found in the path specified in the settings. If you restore this file, you get back 100% of what you had before autocal correct?

3) After the autocal is complete, it looks like the settings are loaded to the projector, but not permanently saved so I could verify the results with my i1pro/C6 BEFORE saving. Is that correct?
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post #195 of 248 Old 06-28-2015, 06:25 PM
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For the Lumagen colorspace output YCbCr 4:2:2 is indeed the proper way to go but I would recommend you change the output to 10 bit vs 12 bit. The JVC uses 10-bit panels and drivers and after a conversation with Jim at Lumagen he recommended 10-bit output as well.

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post #196 of 248 Old 06-29-2015, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
For the Lumagen colorspace output YCbCr 4:2:2 is indeed the proper way to go but I would recommend you change the output to 10 bit vs 12 bit. The JVC uses 10-bit panels and drivers and after a conversation with Jim at Lumagen he recommended 10-bit output as well.
Hi Kris,

Just to clarify,

YCB is always 12 bits over HDMI because it's temporal, not parallel encoding. The 8/10/12 bits (deepcolor or not) is only relevant for RGB.

This is why the deepcolor line always shows a - when YCB is selected.

If you select anything less than 12bits with YCB, it will be padded with zeros as 12bits is the only format supported by YCB over HDMI.

I guess selecting 10bits makes sure the Radiance dithers to the panels depth so that there is no significant bits that could be lost, instead of leaving this to the JVC, but that's about the only advantage I see for using 10bits in YCB with the JVCs, provided the Radiance bit depth settings apply to YCB and not only to RGB.

I haven't used a Radiance for a while so not sure if it does.
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post #197 of 248 Old 06-29-2015, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Ran this last night and not only did it make it possible to calibrate greyscale to an average DE of.7 by just adjusting the gains a few clicks, but gamma now track flat AND I can now resolve down to digital 17 with brightness and contrast left at 0, a gamma correction 0f 2.3 (which tracks closer to 2.4) and setting the dark tone to +2. Gamut seems improved as well with an average DE of 1.8

It would have taken hours to get these results without running autocal first.


Here is my question(s):

1) Say you use the standard color profile and it is tracking ok so you don't want to mess with it, but you do want to correct greyscale. Since color does both gamut and grayscale, would it be a better idea to run autocal with a color profile you don't use...say stage? Would that correct grayscale globally yet leave the standard color profile alone?

2) I almost had a heart attack because I expected the init file to be something I was prompted where to save. I quickly found in the path specified in the settings. If you restore this file, you get back 100% of what you had before autocal correct?

3) After the autocal is complete, it looks like the settings are loaded to the projector, but not permanently saved so I could verify the results with my i1pro/C6 BEFORE saving. Is that correct?
Glad it worked for you.

Re your questions:

1) yes that should work
2) yes, and there is abackup file created every time younsave an autocal, so you can always back back to the last stage as well. I selected the desktop to save the files, that way I always see them and can move them where they should be (I have a subfolder per salibration session).
3) Yes, the calibration is uploaded but not saved permamently unless you click save, and in theory you can check it but in practice, if it looks ok I just save before leaving the JVC software and using Calman with my own meters to check the calibration and fine tune or create a 3D LUT. As you can always go back using the latest backup, it's neater to do it that way than to use another software while the JVC Autocal is in memory. Otherwise the two software could compete for the Spyder4 control, or even for the JVC control.
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post #198 of 248 Old 06-29-2015, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Kris,

Just to clarify,

YCB is always 12 bits over HDMI because it's temporal, not parallel encoding. The 8/10/12 bits (deepcolor or not) is only relevant for RGB.

This is why the deepcolor line always shows a - when YCB is selected.

If you select anything less than 12bits with YCB, it will be padded with zeros as 12bits is the only format supported by YCB over HDMI.

I guess selecting 10bits makes sure the Radiance dithers to the panels depth so that there is no significant bits that could be lost, instead of leaving this to the JVC, but that's about the only advantage I see for using 10bits in YCB with the JVCs, provided the Radiance bit depth settings apply to YCB and not only to RGB.

I haven't used a Radiance for a while so not sure if it does.
Great info. This is what I received from Jim on this:

"If you are outputting 4:2:2 by default that is 12-bit precision on the output of the Radiance. If the projector is 10-bit, then it may be best to set output dither to 10-bits, especially if they throw out the two lower bits of the 4:2:2’s 12-bit output (rather than dither at the input). I really doubt humans can notice the difference between 12-bits truncated to 10-bits, or 12-bits dithered to 10-bits, especially considering consumer source is 8-bit compressed and so has about 7-bits of precision. Calibration can definitely require more than 8 bits to represent the 8-bit source after we move the levels around. Some claim they can the difference between 10 and 12 bits. So, there is some chance you would notice the improvement with dither on to 10-bits."
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post #199 of 248 Old 06-29-2015, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Great info. This is what I received from Jim on this:

"If you are outputting 4:2:2 by default that is 12-bit precision on the output of the Radiance. If the projector is 10-bit, then it may be best to set output dither to 10-bits, especially if they throw out the two lower bits of the 4:2:2’s 12-bit output (rather than dither at the input). I really doubt humans can notice the difference between 12-bits truncated to 10-bits, or 12-bits dithered to 10-bits, especially considering consumer source is 8-bit compressed and so has about 7-bits of precision. Calibration can definitely require more than 8 bits to represent the 8-bit source after we move the levels around. Some claim they can the difference between 10 and 12 bits. So, there is some chance you would notice the improvement with dither on to 10-bits."
Thanks Kris, that's what I would have expected.

Totally agree with Jim re the minuscule difference between 12 and 10 bits to the eye.

I've done some tests with MadVR which now supports 10bits out and the difference between 8bits properly dithered and 10bits is almost invisible. So the difference between 10 and 12bits would be even smaller, especially as Jim says with 8bits content like bluray.

The difference should be more significant with UHD content in 10bits.
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post #200 of 248 Old 07-07-2015, 06:01 AM
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Last night I decided to do a touch up on my X500 calibration at 244 hours since it had been probably 120-140 hours since I last calibrated it. I noticed that my gamma had dropped in the 40-80 range from what was 2.4 to something closer to 2.2 and it wasn't the easiest to try and get this back in line since i have to select the 2.5 custom setting and tweak from there.

I then saw some of the posts here and how well this autocal seems to work for gamma so I am now interested in giving it a go. The thing is, it seems the spyder 4 has been discontinued and isn't being carried by a bunch of places I have checked.

Does anyone here know if the spyder 5 pro will work with this software? If not, hopefully JVC will update it to make it work as that's the new meter now and I don't want to try and buy a used spyder 4 pro.

It'd really be nice if they had the software work with other meters so I could simply use my display pro. Just couldn't be that convenient...
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post #201 of 248 Old 07-07-2015, 06:42 AM
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Does anyone here know if the spyder 5 pro will work with this software? If not, hopefully JVC will update it to make it work as that's the new meter now and I don't want to try and buy a used spyder 4 pro.

It'd really be nice if they had the software work with other meters so I could simply use my display pro. Just couldn't be that convenient...
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post #202 of 248 Old 07-13-2015, 09:28 AM
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Similar question, I don't have a Spyder 4, but I do have an i1 Display Pro, has anyone compared JVC's auto cal to a "manual" cal via a Lumagen? I guess the questions is, is there any benefit (other than ease) to buying a Spyder and using the JVC Auto Cal than to use my i1D3, HCFR and my Lumagen?

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post #203 of 248 Old 07-13-2015, 11:16 AM
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Similar question, I don't have a Spyder 4, but I do have an i1 Display Pro, has anyone compared JVC's auto cal to a "manual" cal via a Lumagen? I guess the questions is, is there any benefit (other than ease) to buying a Spyder and using the JVC Auto Cal than to use my i1D3, HCFR and my Lumagen?
Hello Stranger,

If you have a Radiance and if you can correct the gamma droop without any posterization, and if your standard color profile isn't undersaturated, then there is little advantage.

The main advantage of the autocal is to provide a very decent calibration when you don't have a Radiance, or to give a very good baseline to get a quicker 3D LUT.

For example, without the JVC autocal to correct the gamma droop and give me a near perfect and very linear gamut, it takes about two hours to create a 17x17x17 3D LUT with my Discus.

Once the JCV autocal creates a near perfect baseline, it only takes 5-10mn to generate a lightning LUT (65 points) with Calman which gives me better results than a 2 hour LUT with almost 5000 points. This is because the intenral calibration of the PJ is very linear after the Autocal, so it needs very little correction.

So depending on the options you have with your software and the LUT size in your Radiance, you can get additional benefits, especially as the panels start to age and the gamma droop gets worse and the gamut starts to move.

YMMV, I get exellent results with my Spyder 4 and the JVC Autocal when I check them with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, but others are less lucky. It's a combination of the luck of the draw with the meter and unit to unit variation with the projector.

If you're fully happy with your Radiance calibration and if the gamma droop and your color profiles are fully correctable, then I wouldn't bother, unless you want to try to save some time using smaller LUTs to get similar results.

I'm not using a Radiance anymore, so I need the JVC Autocal to correct all my non MadVR sources, and with MadVR on the HTPC I get reference results for all my blurays with its up to 64x64x64 3DLUT.

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post #204 of 248 Old 07-13-2015, 07:32 PM
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Takes me about 20-35 minutes start to finish to do a 3,000 point 3D LUT using Calman and my Radiance. YMMV I guess.

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post #205 of 248 Old 07-13-2015, 09:51 PM
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Takes me about 20-35 minutes start to finish to do a 3,000 point 3D LUT using Calman and my Radiance. YMMV I guess.
With a K10A or a CR100, sure.

But not with a consumer meter like an i1d3, C6 or even a Discus, or it got much better since the last time I used it with a large LUT which was about a year ago, when I still had my Radiance and the X30.

Which meter are you using Kris? Also is it 3000 effective points, or is this the theoretical max of an intelligent LUT?

I was talking about a true 17x17x17 (4913 points), which takes about 2.5 hours in Lightspace with the Discus. With Calman, it would take about twice as long with my Discus, so I would usually use a smaller LUT as I can't justify 5 hours of bulb time for a LUT.

If you're using an intelligent LUT in Calman, did you notice a performance improvement regarding the time needed to perform a 3D LUT calculation after the JVC Autocal? As the gamut is much more linear and the gamma droop is corrected, it should take much less time to calculate the LUT.

I went from 2 hours (about 2000 effective points) to 5 minutes (65 points) in Calman to get similar results, but that wasn't on the same PJ (X30 vs X500).

I'll try a 3000 points in Calman on my X500 with the Discus next time I calibrate from my JVC autocal baseline and I'll report my findings. I know that the Discus is a bit slower than the C6/i1d3 in Calman, but I can't use the C6/i1d3 to measure black on the JVC so it's pretty much useless for me.

For me not having to waste hours of bulb time to calculate a needlessly huge LUT is a huge plus of the JVC Autocal, but as you say YMMV depending on your unit and the meter/equipment used.

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post #206 of 248 Old 07-13-2015, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Takes me about 20-35 minutes start to finish to do a 3,000 point 3D LUT using Calman and my Radiance. YMMV I guess.
With a K10A or a CR100, sure.

But not with a consumer meter like an i1d3, C6 or even a Discus, or it got much better since the last time I used it with a large LUT which was about a year ago, when I still had my Radiance and the X30.

Which meter are you using Kris? Also is it 3000 effective points, or is this the theoretical max of an intelligent LUT?

I was talking about a true 17x17x17 (4913 points), which takes about 2.5 hours in Lightspace with the Discus. With Calman, it would take about twice as long with my Discus, so I would usually use a smaller LUT as I can't justify 5 hours of bulb time for a LUT.

If you're using an intelligent LUT in Calman, did you notice a performance improvement regarding the time needed to perform a 3D LUT calculation after the JVC Autocal? As the gamut is much more linear and the gamma droop is corrected, it should take much less time to calculate the LUT.

I went from 2 hours (about 2000 effective points) to 5 minutes (65 points) in Calman to get similar results, but that wasn't on the same PJ (X30 vs X500).

I'll try a 3000 points in Calman on my X500 with the Discus next time I calibrate from my JVC autocal baseline and I'll report my findings. I know that the Discus is a bit slower than the C6/i1d3 in Calman, but I can't use the C6/i1d3 to measure black on the JVC so it's pretty much useless for me.

For me not having to waste hours of bulb time to calculate a needlessly huge LUT is a huge plus of the JVC Autocal, but as you say YMMV depending on your unit and the meter/equipment used.
This is with a CR-100 profiled to a Jeti. I had the Klein before and it was about the same. I use the 3,000 point read for the LUT as the Spectracal guys said after that the benefits don't justify the time as much. The post cal readings seem to back that up too. Didn't notice any difference in time when I did the auto cal from JVC first but it did make the gamma more linear to start.
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post #207 of 248 Old 07-13-2015, 10:43 PM
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This is with a CR-100 profiled to a Jeti. I had the Klein before and it was about the same. I use the 3,000 point read for the LUT as the Spectracal guys said after that the benefits don't justify the time as much. The post cal readings seem to back that up too. Didn't notice any difference in time when I did the auto cal from JVC first but it did make the gamma more linear to start.
Thanks Kris, that's what I thought. Now you know how lucky you are to have a CR100 compared to us who have to deal with non pro meters

On another hand, since the JVC Autocal allows me to use a 65 points LUT, it totally killed my craving for a faster meter as I never have to calculate a large LUT anymore thanks to the better baseline.

Totally agree with the Spectracal statement when using an intelligent LUT. That why I'm so happy to use a Lighning LUT (65 points in Calman / 5 minutes) after a JVC autocal to get better results than I used to get after a 2.5 hours+ in Lightspace or Calman.

Did you try a Lightning LUT in Calman after the JVC Autocal? You might be surprised by the results if you have created a custom rec-709 profile with the JVC software that tracks as linearly as mine. That's the main reason why I was able to go from 2000+ points to 65 points only and slash my calibration time for a 3D LUT down to a ridiculous 5mn. This also allows me to put the Discus is high accuracy/repeatability mode, which doubles the measurement time (to a whooping 10mn) but gives me even increased accuracy.

I tested the result of a 65 points Lightning LUT with a custom patch set of more than 1000 points (I call it Colorchecker SG XXL) and the average dE was less than 1, max was around 1.5 dE2000. Now at around 800 hours on the bulb the max dE with a Lightning LUT is gone a bit higher than I like, around 3 in Colorchecker SG, so I'm going to try a larger LUT next time I calibrate. I suspect a 1000 points LUT (which should take me around one hour in Calman) will be enough.

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post #208 of 248 Old 07-14-2015, 07:11 AM
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I have another question since it seems I'm stuck with having to find an out of production Spyder 4 pro so it doesn't seem like I can just exchange if the one I get isn't that great for accuracy..

When it comes to accuracy, how important is the meter being fairly accurate for the auto cal gamma (and for the colour cal if I do that) when I can make touchups after with calman and my i1 display pro? What I mean by this is say the spdyer I get is off....will it still give a linear gamma to correct any future drooping that I can then just look to tweak with the gamma controls in the user menu if the overall curve is higher or lower than it should be?

My only reason of wanting this is to really be able to fix gamma droop in the future and perhaps get even more accurate colours (if the meter is accurate) and I do not want to shell out over 2 grand on a Lumagen which for me isn't worth it as I do not care that much for absolute accuracy and perfection. Still, I noticed the gamma droop before I touched it up a couple weeks ago so that is something I want to avoid in the future.

My thought on this is that the accuracy of the Spyder 4 is more important if one is just using this rather than for those who have another meter and software and can touch things up after. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks
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post #209 of 248 Old 07-14-2015, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post
I have another question since it seems I'm stuck with having to find an out of production Spyder 4 pro so it doesn't seem like I can just exchange if the one I get isn't that great for accuracy..

When it comes to accuracy, how important is the meter being fairly accurate for the auto cal gamma (and for the colour cal if I do that) when I can make touchups after with calman and my i1 display pro? What I mean by this is say the spdyer I get is off....will it still give a linear gamma to correct any future drooping that I can then just look to tweak with the gamma controls in the user menu if the overall curve is higher or lower than it should be?

My only reason of wanting this is to really be able to fix gamma droop in the future and perhaps get even more accurate colours (if the meter is accurate) and I do not want to shell out over 2 grand on a Lumagen which for me isn't worth it as I do not care that much for absolute accuracy and perfection. Still, I noticed the gamma droop before I touched it up a couple weeks ago so that is something I want to avoid in the future.

My thought on this is that the accuracy of the Spyder 4 is more important if one is just using this rather than for those who have another meter and software and can touch things up after. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks
If correcting the gamma drop is your priority, any Spyder4 will do it well. Yes you might need to touch up color temp and gamut with another meter/software, but gamma should be fine and unless you're after a BT1886 curve you won't need to touch it up much.


The color accuracy of the spyder 4 is important though even if you use another meter, because if you use the JVC software to create a custom colour profile in order to get an accurate rec-709 profile that tracks perfectly, you don't want this gamut to be understaturated (creating custom targets to compensate for that is possible but annoying).


As long as you have a reliable meter to check the Spyder4 accuracy, there is a way to compensate for its error gamut wise, and they won't matter for gamma.


For color temp, usually you only need to set 100% white to D65 using you other meter/software, and you're good to go for a 3D LUT calibration, of for a bit more adjustment using the gamma/color temp internal control of the JVC.


If you buy on ebay, you can always ask the seller how accurate the meter is, some of them might know if they also have a spectro.


I don't know where you're located but the Spyder 4 Pro is still available new from a few sellers on Amazon. You could try buying from a seller with a decent return policy.
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post #210 of 248 Old 07-14-2015, 05:56 PM
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Manni,

Do u see any degradation of the gamma after fixing the initial droop? Any gamut shrinkage seen?
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