3LCD vs DLP Here we go again... - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Christian Bergh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here's a link to an article that claims 9 of 10 prefer 3LCD

Hopefully not already posted if so please delete.

http://www.aboutprojectors.com/news/2013/10/03/study-shows-consumers-prefer-3lcd-over-dlp-projectors/


/Christian
Christian Bergh is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 01:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 143
It doesn't say which projectors were being used. My guess is that a very cheap DLP projector was used. Anyone who's seen a bunch of projectors knows that DLP can be much better than 3LCD. That isn't to say 3LCD looks bad, but I don't think I've ever seen a 3LCD projector that could outperform some of the higher end DLPs in overall picture quality.

If you read the article is says still images were shown and the reasoning people prefered the 3LCD image over the DLP was because of the higher color brightness 3LCD has. Play some mixed content and I'm sure people would prefer the DLP. In the end though it really matters which two projectors you're comparing.

Classic video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfGrWZwiRFU&noredirect=1
Seegs108 is offline  
post #3 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Christian Bergh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yes it's too bad they don't disclose which projectors that were used in the comparison.
eek.gif

This link has some more information.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/10/03/5790671/study-reveals-9-out-of-10-people.html
Christian Bergh is offline  
post #4 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 01:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 140
I can tell you that article is silly. It depends on what type of content you are watching and how close you sit and how perfectly converged the LCD is vs. what DLP we are talking about. To sum this up, if you are talking about home theater LCD projectors, there is really only ONE LCD projector I know of that is even really competitive in image quality, and that is the Epson 5010/5020/5030. The only attribute that this particular LCD projector really beats single-chip DLP's is black levels, and even then it's certainly not a large lead over a projector like a Runco LS-3/PD8130 or Runco LS-5/PD8150 (though the Runco's new are more expensive). BUT IMO, since the Runco has a far superior IRIS to the Epson 5010/5020/5030, the lead the Epson has in black levels is partly diminished. The Runco has a tighter pixel fill and produces a more consistent image, so overall I'd prefer the Runco unless you need a light-cannon mode which the runco does not have.

If we are comparing other DLP's, like the Benq w7000 or w1070 to the Epson, well the Benq produces a sharper cleaner image, but the black levels are easily beaten by the Epson. The Epson also has much better contrast in 3D, but for 3D gaming LCD is unuseable IMO due to ghosting / cross-talk (I don't know how people even use LCD's in 3D games, seems insane). For 3D movies, the Epson has much higher contrast until you get into a DLP like the Sharp xvz-30000 which isn't as good as the Epson but gets close enough to please most. As the lamps age on an LCOS or LCD projector, the 3D ghosting increases over time and eventually even 3D movies start showing considerable ghosting in 3D, a problem DLP does not have. Of course the Runco LS-3 and LS-5 do not have 3D capability, so that is one issue there if you are into 3D.

For 2D, IMO, DLP wins in most content if you have at least the black levels of something like an Optoma hd8200/hd8300 or Sharp xvz-3000. For really dark movies, the Epsons still easily beat the Benq's though.

A low-cost DLP can still beat an Epson for general TV watching (Discovery, News, some movies) and DLP looks cleaner than LCOS and LCD (noise is less highlighted). Now adding LCOS into this comparison, well LCOS is at its best when something was shot on reference NON-DIGITAL material (35mm,60mm, 70mm, whatever), whereas in this last case I think LCOS can beat DLP overall as the slightly "dirtier" look of LCOS also seems to accentuate the more film-like look of certain movies turning what is sometimes a disadvantage into an advantage.

If a DLP could match the black levels of a JVC Lcos projector, I'd probably prefer DLP in 95% of content, but so far that doesn't exist anywhere near the price range of our sub-$5000 LCOS projectors. So for blacks and dark movies LCOS > LCD > DLP, and for general TV watching DLP > LCOS >= LCD (depends). It depends on the specific movie though, sometimes I think DLP > LCOS and sometimes I find the reverse even when a movie isn't full of dark scenes (Tree of life - crap movie - but good reference content, for instance I prefer this on an LCOS even in the bright scenes).

Hope that helps...
Christian Bergh likes this.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #5 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Christian Bergh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This video is a maybe a bit outdated... 2008 a lot has happened to LCD displays since then.
Christian Bergh is offline  
post #6 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 04:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
danieledmunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bermuda
Posts: 981
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I'd love to see an updated version using the JVC RS67, Sony VW600 and DPI Cine LED 1000

danieledmunds is offline  
post #7 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 05:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Bergh View Post

This video is a maybe a bit outdated... 2008 a lot has happened to LCD displays since then.

Not nearly as much as you think. Since 2008 we've only seen things like FI, slightly better DI's for higher on/off numbers, and 3D implementation. These incremental changes haven't made 3LCD look different in a meaningful way.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #8 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 07:47 AM
Member
 
JohnS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
My biggest issue with single chip DLP is rainbows. Even 6x color wheels don't fix this issue for me. I believe rainbows are the #1 reason people avoid DLP. Once you see them, you can't stop seeing them.
JohnS is offline  
post #9 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 07:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS View Post

My biggest issue with single chip DLP is rainbows. Even 6x color wheels don't fix this issue for me. I believe rainbows are the #1 reason people avoid DLP. Once you see them, you can't stop seeing them.

Seeing them and being bothered by them are two separate things. Everyone see's them from time to time but most aren't bothered enough by them to completely disregard the technology. LEDs based models are getting cheaper and cheaper. I had an LED unit and never saw a single rainbow.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #10 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 07:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
Andreas21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 802
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Seeing them and being bothered by them are two separate things. Everyone see's them from time to time but most aren't bothered enough by them to completely disregard the technology. LEDs based models are getting cheaper and cheaper. I had an LED unit and never saw a single rainbow.

I know alot of people who is so bothered with the rainbow effect that they will never even concider a single chip DLP and I am also one of them, but I would never concider a normal LCD in my HT either.

Regards
Andreas

My Homecinema

Andreas21 is online now  
post #11 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 08:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I know alot of people who is so bothered with the rainbow effect that they will never even concider a single chip DLP and I am also one of them, but I would never concider a normal LCD in my HT either.

I've had probably close to 50 people view several single chip DLPs over the last couple years. Most of them had no idea about rainbows or that the projector produced them. I've never once had anyone comment on them or complain about them. I think people in-the-know who are fully aware of what they are and that some people are bothered by them suffer from sort of self induced hysteria and see what they want to see.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #12 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 08:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I've had probably close to 50 people view several single chip DLPs over the last couple years. Most of them had no idea about rainbows or that the projector produced them. I've never once had anyone comment on them or complain about them. I think people in-the-know who are fully aware of what they are and that some people are bothered by them suffer from sort of self induced hysteria and see what they want to see.

Yup, it is called "Iridophobia" - Fear of Rainbows smile.gif

In all seriousness, there are projectors I absolutely cannot watch at certain color wheel speeds, so I'm in the camp of give me a fast enough color wheel and I'll be fine.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #13 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 08:31 AM
Member
 
Matrixfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sadly back in the days i couldn't buy a dlp unit either. It was simply unwatchable, so we bought the Sanyo Z2000. Everybody in the family was annoyed by RBE, I didn't even tell my dad what to look for, but he immediately noticed it. I had the chance to view a higher end Projection Design single chip projector, and even that 5-6x speed and quality wasn't enough to feel a natural image. Of course I immediately saw the advantages of DLP also, what even the cheapest one had. I have great hope in the upcoming Optoma HD91, maybe the switching speed of led will be fast enough for the hyper RBE sensitive folks like me.
Matrixfan is offline  
post #14 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 08:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ron Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Florida and West Virginia, USA
Posts: 5,703
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yup, it is called "Iridophobia" - Fear of Rainbows smile.gif

In all seriousness, there are projectors I absolutely cannot watch at certain color wheel speeds, so I'm in the camp of give me a fast enough color wheel and I'll be fine.

It appears that I, more or less, have similar sensitivity to RBE that you have. I see severe RBE with 1x and 2X color wheel speeds, frequent RBE at 3X, occasional RBE at 4X and close of RBE free at 5X and 6X. Those looking to purchase a DLP projector need to be careful in that some projectors may say they have up to 6X speed but have much lower color wheel speeds with most types of signal inputs. The BenQ W1070 is one example of this where, it has been reported in the thread for that projector, that a 24Hz input produces only an approx. 3X speed and only approaches the 6X speed with a 50 Hz input. In fact, it appears perhaps they considered 1X .to be based on a 50 fps display, rather than the more common 60 fps, and what we would normally call a 5X speed it what they consider 6X. Bottom line is if you are sensitive to RBE don't just base the a given projector's color wheel speed on one line in a manufacturer's spec. sheet.


.

Ron Jones
Blog + Reviews + Articles: projectorreviews.com
Ron Jones is offline  
post #15 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 08:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS View Post

My biggest issue with single chip DLP is rainbows. Even 6x color wheels don't fix this issue for me. I believe rainbows are the #1 reason people avoid DLP. Once you see them, you can't stop seeing them.

Check out the Sharp XVZ-30000. They have somehow solved the rainbow "issue".
Even Art at PR could not see them (and he claims to be rainbow sensitive).
+1 on coderguy's analysis. You have to start with a high grade DLP, that can reach a certain "black threshold". For super-clean video content, like HD sports. DLP is hard to beat.
With softer images, DLPs inherent sharpness can accentuate the flaws...Still, to my way of thinking, it's easier to play with the DLP image (with tweaks, Darbee, etc.) to make it work with a softer image; then it is to sharpen the other technologies.
I'm hoping that the coming 4K images will be so detailed that the DLP advantage will all but disappear. smile.gif
On the down side, this regularly reoccurring thread topic will no longer come up to comment on...wink.gif
humbland is offline  
post #16 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 08:58 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Liked: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I've had probably close to 50 people view several single chip DLPs over the last couple years. Most of them had no idea about rainbows or that the projector produced them. I've never once had anyone comment on them or complain about them. I think people in-the-know who are fully aware of what they are and that some people are bothered by them suffer from sort of self induced hysteria and see what they want to see.

Same here. Had many people view my Marantz and Planar and not a single one has seen rainbows. It is something like 5% of the population that can see rainbows, so a small percentage.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales
Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me: Mike@AVScience.com

Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/

 

Call for B-stock projectors

Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI & many more.
Klipsch, RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.

AV Science Sales 5 is online now  
post #17 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 12:06 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,340
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

My guess is that a very cheap DLP projector was used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

I'd love to see an updated version using the JVC RS67, Sony VW600 and DPI Cine LED 1000

It just occurred to me that there are no LCD's at the price/quality level of those DLP/LCOS HT pj's.

I wonder why not.

Maybe a better lens would just highlight the pixel gaps too much.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #18 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 12:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dragonbud0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Monmouth County, NJ
Posts: 1,896
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
This research is meaningless without informing the readers what the brands or price ranges are. Buying a projector is a personal decision.

Just because most TV's sold are LCD/LED, I still go out of my way to get a plasma.

I do see RBE and find it annoying, just as annoying as the older Sony DI. Owning mostly JVC,s and Sony's myself, I do enjoy DLP picture but would not buy it again, as well as not caring for LCD like Epson or Panny.
dragonbud0 is offline  
post #19 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 12:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


It just occurred to me that there are no LCD's at the price/quality level of those DLP/LCOS HT pj's.

I wonder why not.

Maybe a better lens would just highlight the pixel gaps too much.

Which makes the thread title funny. Here we go again? Who's ever made the claim that 3LCD is better? This might be up for debate in the under $3000 forum but definitely not in this or other subforums.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #20 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 01:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
Andreas21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 802
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I've had probably close to 50 people view several single chip DLPs over the last couple years. Most of them had no idea about rainbows or that the projector produced them. I've never once had anyone comment on them or complain about them. I think people in-the-know who are fully aware of what they are and that some people are bothered by them suffer from sort of self induced hysteria and see what they want to see.

It is funny to read when you try to defend DLP with every means possible, when I say I have many friends and me Included see rainbows and can not watch a singlechip DLP because it is very distracting that is the case for med and these friends. I am not saying it is everybody, but some maby 5-10% of videofiles can not watch singlechip DLP because of this and not only the cheap ones. I am very sesitive and see it even with the high speed colorwheel. And also to compare DLP with 3LCD is quite funny if it should be a contest it has to be LCOS.

Regards
Andreas

My Homecinema

Andreas21 is online now  
post #21 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 01:41 PM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I've had probably close to 50 people view several single chip DLPs over the last couple years. Most of them had no idea about rainbows or that the projector produced them. I've never once had anyone comment on them or complain about them. I think people in-the-know who are fully aware of what they are and that some people are bothered by them suffer from sort of self induced hysteria and see what they want to see.


Self induced hysteria? Seegs, in all due respect, RBE is a very real issue for those that see and are bothered by it, but like ANY A/V anomaly, whether or not you see/hear it and/or it bothers you is very dependent on the individual. When I first started seeing rainbows, I had ZERO idea what I was actually seeing as I had never heard of RBE at the time. We got a Toshiba rear projection set years ago and I started seeing them almost immediately and was wondering if I was having some sort of flashback from all those Grateful Dead show experiences I had when I was younger. smile.gif After seeing this go on for a week or so, I did some research on here and realized what I was seeing was RBE. It was certainly NOT some sort of self induced hysteria, but an extremely annoying issue which ultimately caused me to return the set and get something else. Funny thing is the GF could not see it AT ALL as I kept trying to point it out to her and she thought I was crazy.

Having said that, I do own and use a BenQ W7000 for 3d duties and have done some 2d with it and still have not seen one rainbow, so apparently whatever speed the 7000 is at is fast enough for RBE to be a non issue for me at this point which is great, but others are not so fortunate and need even faster color wheels. Very dependent on the individual.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is offline  
post #22 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 02:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 143
I'm saying people see them and make a much bigger deal out of them then they should. Yes, there are some people who are hypersensitive to them, but like Mike said it's only like 5% of people ie a VERY small portion of the population. Like I said before, seeing them is totally different than being bothered by them. Some people seem to think that if you see them you'll be bothered by them and they completely dismiss the technology. I don't doubt that it is so bothersome to many that they can't use certain projectors. But I think there are a lot of people out there who think that if they see them they will be bothered by it. I've seen many people say "I see Rainbows, what are my other options?". So yes, I think there are many people out there who are hysterical about rainbows.
Seegs108 is offline  
post #23 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 02:39 PM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'm saying people see them and make a much bigger deal out of them then they should. Yes, there are some people who are hypersensitive to them, but like Mike said it's only like 5% of people ie a VERY small portion of the population. Like I said before, seeing them is totally different than being bothered by them. Some people seem to think that if you see them you'll be bothered by them and they completely dismiss the technology. I don't doubt that it is so bothersome to many that they can't use certain projectors. But I think there are a lot of people out there who think that if they see them they will be bothered by it. I've seen many people say "I see Rainbows, what are my other options?". So yes, I think there are many people out there who are hysterical about rainbows.



Again though, the degree to which certain A/V anomalies bother each of us very much depends on the individual. Just because seeing the occasional rainbow does not bother you does not justify categorizing someone whom it does bother as "hysterical about rainbows". I fully understand someone who will not buy a DLP because they see rainbows to whatever degree since some people really do find them THAT objectionable as hard as it is for you to believe apparently.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is offline  
post #24 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 02:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 140
It is higher on 4x color wheels than 5%, it's more like 10% to 15% or so (based on years of seeing someone post after they buy it, darn rainbows - time to return it). Though the % depends how bright they watch the projector, many people are buying these cheap sub-$1000 DLP's and projecting at 30 fL and then saying they see rainbows (it's too easy to see at this brightness even if you only have a little sensitivity). I always try to tell people not to watch DLP too bright if they have any RBE sensitivity BEFORE returning it (buy ND filter). On 2x and 3x color wheels it is much much higher than that, probably getting around 25% to 50%.

As far as at 20 - 25 fL or lower on a 5x or 6x color wheel, yah it's very low, 5% sounds about right.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #25 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 03:42 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,340
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 133
PLEASE, not the rainbows debate again!

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #26 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 03:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,357
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

PLEASE, not the rainbows debate again!

ok, do you want a good topic of discussion based on this thread.. ?

subject: Color brightness

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Landing/color-brightness.do

Epson is claiming a new way to measure lumen output. I've been trying to figure this out, they don't explain any real science behind this and imo are assuming buyers do not understand color calibration.


http://colorlightoutput.com/what-is-color-light-output.php

Results*
Epson PL Home Cinema 5020UB
Color Brightness: 2400 lumens
White Brightness: 2400 lumens

There is some irony here. The Planar 8130/8150 have higher lumen output at D65/R709 than the Epson 5020. It has a good torch mode for ambient light, but the colors are off by a mile. It can be tamed to 'near D65' at around 1400 lumens, but that's a far stretch from stating 2400 lumens.

So in the end, I am not sure what this marketing campaign consists of? I believe it's been around for a while, there must be a discussion on this in another forum.
zombie10k is online now  
post #27 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 04:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 140
They should have required a number called Calibrated Light Output, not Color Light Output.

It was an ok idea in theory, but I agree it will only be used to distort the numbers since on a calibrated display the colors luminance would need to be correct to be considered calibrated at 75% saturation anyways. The manufacturers even if they provide a CLO number, can just distort the calibration to get the needed luminance at 100% saturation with the other aspects of the calibration WAY WAY off.

It shows the required color square pattern to measure is in the whitepaper from that site you posted (ANSI RGB Pattern).

I know one reason they did it, was because of the DLP projectors with white segments have weaker color luminance/gain on some of the primary and secondary colors if you attempt to get near the peak lumens at 100% saturation. The problem with their theory is, it's not just DLP's that have a problem with luminance of the gamut when you try to get near the peak lumens, it's often a side effect on other projectors as well.

The white light output measurement I guess is just the normal ANSI Lumens measurement on a 100-IRE full field white? (didn't read the full whitepaper)

The ANSI RGB Pattern they use for CLO is ignorant, for one it is missing the Secondary Colors, and for two Calibrated (not Color) Light Output would have been 1000x more beneficial.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

coderguy is offline  
post #28 of 46 Old 10-05-2013, 09:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

ok, do you want a good topic of discussion based on this thread.. ?

subject: Color brightness

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Landing/color-brightness.do

Epson is claiming a new way to measure lumen output. I've been trying to figure this out, they don't explain any real science behind this and imo are assuming buyers do not understand color calibration.

So in the end, I am not sure what this marketing campaign consists of? I believe it's been around for a while, there must be a discussion on this in another forum.

It seems to be based on comparing their projectors to business-class DLPs, the ones with white segments or the Brilliant Color (RGBCMYW) colorwheels which can generate much higher light output for white, but at the expense of color saturation. I don't believe

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is online now  
post #29 of 46 Old 10-06-2013, 12:21 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
HogPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Good Ol' US of A
Posts: 2,870
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
This is a blatant 3LCD marketing fluff piece that uses the word "study." Not even worth discussing.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

HogPilot is online now  
post #30 of 46 Old 10-06-2013, 12:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
FilmReverie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Grid
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Seeing them and being bothered by them are two separate things. Everyone see's them from time to time but most aren't bothered enough by them to completely disregard the technology. LEDs based models are getting cheaper and cheaper. I had an LED unit and never saw a single rainbow.

Not everyone sees them. I have never seen a rainbow when using a dlp projector. Not everyone is sensitive to them. The article isn't worth discussing as it leaves basically every variable outside of dlp and 3lcd unknown.
FilmReverie is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off