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post #1 of 41 Old 10-13-2013, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I recently got an RS-4800 to stack with my RS-35 to go to a large (15') screen.

I got them lined up easier than I expected.
The problem is when panning there is a very pronounced ghosting effect which seems to be the RS-35 leading the 4800. If I pause it they are perfectly aligned, if I run in slomo it is barely noticeable. I tried to check the progressive/interlaced but the setting for that is not highlighted on either projector and both are set to auto.

I am at a loss. I have been trying to sell my RS-35 but as you may know they don't have a high resale price and I am not going to "give" it away.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Moto
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post #2 of 41 Old 10-13-2013, 04:40 AM
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Most likely a very small difference with input lag. One projector is processing the image faster and projecting the image before the other. It makes perfect sense because these are two totally different projectors.
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post #3 of 41 Old 10-13-2013, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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UH-OH. Sounds bad for me.
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post #4 of 41 Old 10-13-2013, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

UH-OH. Sounds bad for me.

Anytime I have ever heard about staking of projectors, they are of the exact same make and model...
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post #5 of 41 Old 10-13-2013, 10:12 AM
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If you stake them properly, they won't blow away in the wind. smile.gif I assume, once you unstake them, you are inquiring about the feasibility of stacking them either vertically or horizontally to double the lumens on the screen. This will of course not double the brightness that you would perceive, far far less in fact. But it can be done but it is difficult to do well, next to impossible to get all those pixels to precisely over lap. But there are mounts available for vertical stacking and precise platforms with micrometer adjustments for aligning.

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post #6 of 41 Old 10-13-2013, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I am going to unstake them and then try again smile.gif.

Actually I was able to get them close enough for me to test in a relatively short period of time. But apparently these 2 projectors are far enough apart in technology that they won't work together.

I wasn't expecting double the perceived brightness but was a little surprised at the amount of difference there was when pressing the "hide" button on one or the other. More than I expected.
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post #7 of 41 Old 10-13-2013, 04:51 PM
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You should try to get two exact models. Sell one
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post #8 of 41 Old 10-14-2013, 05:48 PM
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He is getting another RS4800. smile.gif

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post #9 of 41 Old 10-15-2013, 07:04 AM
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I would like to see pictures of how stacking is done!
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post #10 of 41 Old 10-16-2013, 05:26 AM
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The easiest way (though not as aesthetically perfect as some require, but my personal favorite) is a 6-7 foot tall black metal grid shelf in the back of the room. You can get them at Walmart for under $100 (at least the 6' ones), or the larger ones they sell online. The shelves are fairly sturdy and do not need to be bolted to the wall, and they can hold a tremendous amount of weight as well because they are metal (500+ pounds). Some people also call them bread-rack shelves. You will find these same shelves often used in Data Centers in areas where they have tower servers instead of rackmounts. The reason DC's use them is for maximum cooling, easiest wiring, heaviest weight capacity, adjustable shelf heights, and lowest cost.

---I will post my image later after I get a chance to take it, but for now...---

Note: The 6'+ ones actually have 5 shelves instead of 4 as the picture shows.

Eye Sore?
The shelves are NOT an eye sore unless you have a very fancy room, so once you have your components on the shelves they actually look very good as they blend in sort of invisibly. Of course if you have a real fancy room, you'd probably want an in-wall installation with duct-work cooling paths instead of these shelves, but this works in most cases. This works great for mounting a single projector, or mounting 2 projectors, or even 6 projectors! You just fill in the extra shelf space with Bluray Storage (see pic at end of post), or decorative plants and items (I have some bluray storage and some decorative items).

Projector Beam to Head Clearance and Maximum Shelf Height
One consideration, if you have a very long room, you will need to be careful of how you setup the height to clear peoples heads when sitting. The 6' tall version of the shelves works as far back as about 17 feet from the shelf to the screen, given that people are not sitting closer than 1.0x screen width. The 7' shelf gives you a few more feet (about 20' to 22'). The exact height depends on how tall you are when sitting, how high above the floor your screen is mounted, and how far back from the screen you sit. Rooms longer than that, you will either need to find taller shelves or you will need to secure a "printer-esque" stand or similar to the top shelf.

Why are these shelves preferred overall?
Because the shelves are adjustable in 1-inch increments, and the wiring is cake. You can put all your components (Cable Box, Bluray Player, Stereo, HDMI Switch, UPS, whatever) on the bottom two or three shelves, and then put the projectors on the top two shelves. Also, since these shelves are swiss-cheese, it maximizes cooling for all your components. To hide the wires, simply use black cable ties and run the wires on the back side of each pole putting each wire behind the other as to not create too much thickness. Make sure you run the power cables on one pole, and the video cables on the other as to not create line interference. You can likely find these shelves in different depths, so even very long projectors should fit with enough clearance, or even if you need more depth clearance, the simple solution is to just place a black board or metal as an extension lip and then move the projector forward (it still looks fine actually). For your remotes, get an IR repeater or RF convertor so that you can still use them (though if the shelf is directly behind you, some remotes might still work without the repeater).

How to use these shelves for double stacking two units?
You place the 2 projectors at the same horizontally centered position but place one underneath (shelf below), since all shelves are adjustable, the second projector will actually be right underneath the first one, and then just use a little V-SHIFT to get the images close, and then finish off the vertical alignment by adjusting the projector's wheels as your final precision adjustment. The horizontal alignment isn't all that difficult, since you just nudge each PJ a tiny bit until you get it perfect. Every time you do the horizontal adjustment, you will need to repeat the vertical adjustment and keep going back and forth until you are finally lucky enough for the alignment to come out correctly. I have found that it is far easier to use the projector's wheels to vertically align two images than to try to adjust a ceiling mount.

Why not Ceiling Mount for a Double Stack?
Though ceiling mounting arguably looks cleaner for one projector, for double stacking I'd recommend against it. It is easier to make precise adjustments on a shelf instead of one or more ceiling mounts. This is also a ton easier when you have to troubleshoot something, especially given the swiss-cheese open nature of the shelves so that you can change the cabling configuration instantly if needed, and everything is always within arm's reach. It also saves a lot of money in cabling costs, and allows for the shortest HDMI cable runs (all cables under 12 feet).

How is my setup?
I am not actually using it for double stacking (but it serves the same purpose), but I use it for A/B comparisons. So my current configuration is Top Shelf = Benq w7000, next shelf = JVC, then a wide gap, then bluray player on middle shelf, then second to bottom shelf I have my Blurays and an HDMI Matrix Switch (to do dual output), then on the bottom is my UPS and HTPC. In less than 5 minutes, I can easily add another 2 projectors for comparison or swap them out.

Bluray Storage
To further enhance the shelves, you can convert one of the shelves to an open Bluray Disk Storage area to hold your commonly used disks by installing multiple wire storage units horizontally and wire tying them to the shelf (works great). Since the main shelves are adjustable, you simply buy whatever height you want the mini-storage grids to be. Then you just wire tie them all at the bottom and top and they will be as sturdy just as if they were part of the shelves. Below is an example image of what I mean, and you can find these online in all different heights and widths or chain multiple ones together. You could also add a regular Bluray storage cabinet and just place it on the shelf, but this method here generally matches to the aesthetics of the shelf better.




Note:
I decided to add this post to my signature, because so many people make such poor shelf mounting decisions.
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post #11 of 41 Old 10-17-2013, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the detailed explanation CG.

I have several ideas and will let everyone know the outcome.

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post #12 of 41 Old 10-17-2013, 07:24 AM
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Did you see the Cine4home review of double stacked JVC's?
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Finstallationen%2FJVC-3D-Stack%2FJVC_X35_3D-Stack.htm

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post #13 of 41 Old 10-17-2013, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I am glad you didn't link me to an article that said it couldn't be done smile.gif.

Is it easier to match up the projectors for 2d or 3d?

Moto
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post #14 of 41 Old 10-17-2013, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

I am glad you didn't link me to an article that said it couldn't be done smile.gif.

Is it easier to match up the projectors for 2d or 3d?

Moto

3D is very easy, since the projectors only need to be close. With 2D they need to be pretty much exact or the sharpness will suffer (usually considerably). Also, you need to work pretty hard to get the colors pretty exact in 2D (perhaps get some calibration software, the JVC's support autocalibration, so it's easy). Again, with 3D exact color matching is nice, but your eyes will be more forgiving, since your brain will do the heavy lifting to make the sense of the images coming separately into each eye.
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post #15 of 41 Old 10-17-2013, 08:31 AM
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BTW, here is how you do a quad stack, and yes the horns are motorized adjustable in 0.5 mm increments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Did you see the Cine4home review of double stacked JVC's?
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Finstallationen%2FJVC-3D-Stack%2FJVC_X35_3D-Stack.htm

That will work depending on the setup and which projectors (if not vibrating too much), but sometimes the projectors will drift and you'll have to re-adjust.

I like the wire grid shelves the best out of about 6 different types of shelf mounts, because everything (including Blurays) is located in one place, and with the wire design it allows you to essentially create your own shelf adventure, hence you can have as much space on each shelf as you require, as well as any amount of Bluray storage you need.

PS:
The reason I wrote that article so detailed was because I grew weary of answering the same "how to shelf mount" questions, so I figured now is a good time to put it in my signature and never have to answer the question again :_)


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

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post #16 of 41 Old 10-17-2013, 08:51 AM
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Here is an image of how I once installed a projector on a TINY side wall when there was literally no room to install it. This is from an older Shelf Mount I did before, you can buy glass shelves exactly the same size as the projector to minimize space and just mount the shelf high up.



I should get in the habit of taking pictures every time I do a mounting job, but I usually forget to do it.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
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post #17 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 04:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Would there be any advantage to a Darbee Darblet in my situation with the stacking or would it just be wasting money as the stacking will cause it to be less sharp.

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post #18 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 04:10 AM
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My guess is that it would probably overly emphasize the error in some positions, plus you would need two Darbees unless you are planning on running an HDMI matrix switch or a new Lumagen which I assume has dual outputs. It doesn't really sharpen the edges like a traditional sharpening filter however, it is more of a luminance enhancer of objects which gives the appearance of a sharper image. It's kind of like a contrast sharpener for lack of a better word.

You could try it though.

Even my cheap $80 4x2 HDMI Matrix switch can output to two projectors at the same time, hence I am already setup as a double stack even though I don't use it (I played around with my Benq and JVC in my double stack for fun once). The reason I prefer this matrix switch over my last one is because it allows you to reset it from the REMOTE, so even if something goes haywire you can usually fix it with a reset, though if you are doing a matrix of the same exact 2 projectors, I don't think EDID issues will show up anyhow, so even the Monoprice one might work fine in your case. Though I'd assume if spending that kind of money on a double stack, mise well just buy the Lumagen. Mike@AVS will probably have the answers you need when the time comes, I am just a lurker turned poster (wink wink).

I switch back and forth between two projectors all the time with 3 sources (so I have a 6 matrix setup so to speak), and all this without even leaving my couch seat.
I watched too many movies last year but most of the time I was sleeping through them, I put an unbelievable 7000 hours on lamps in only 2 years.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

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post #19 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a switcher. I guess I could buy a Darbee and return it if it doesn't make it better or makes it worse.

I've already exceeded budget on my new room and I still have to have the foam insulation to get sprayed in frown.gif.
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post #20 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 04:40 AM
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With a switcher you can only put the Darbee's cabling on one source at once (hence Bluray player, Cable, HTPC), that is unless you do a 4x1 switch output to Darbee output to 1x2 matrix switch. So having the Darbee work on all sources would involve physically switching the cables around otherwise.

Problem is even the Darbee by itself behind 1 switch can cause EDID hell on a matrix switch (for instance my JVC was mis-recognized by my HTPC sometimes), you pretty much had to shut the switch off before changing sources to play it safe. Also I've experienced the unfortunate EDID bug of hell with Windows 7 once where I actually had to reinstall the PC (no matter what I did it thought the JVC was passing 1920x1200, no matter what mode I passed). The HTPC got locked in that mode and even safe mode driver reinstallation wouldn't fix it, only a complete re-install got rid of it.

Those are just a few issues that can popup with a Darbee (or even just a switch), but they are more common with a Darbee + switch. That said I was on a different switch back then (the cheaper one).


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post #21 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry if what I am about to say is stupid but I don't understand exactly what you are saying.

Can I not just go HDMI out to the Darbee from my receiver, then out to the switcher and then out to the 2 projectors? Or is that where the problems come in.

I also did some research on the spray in foam and it looks like regular fiberglass is better and significantly cheaper. Altho I may spray it in the roof only to keep the attic from being so hot in summer. I live in SE Georgia so the heat can be significant for about 8 months of the year.
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post #22 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 05:02 AM
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Not a dumb question at all, yes you might be able to, I was just saying Darbee + switcher = problems in general with 2 projectors.
In your case, you are using the AVR as the first 4x1 switcher to the Darbee and the second switch as the 1x2 matrix, so that is the same config that I posted where it would be possible.

Your chances of having issues are a tad lower given the 2 projectors are the same exact type, but they are still there.


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**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

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post #23 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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CG, as always I appreciate your help. Don't you ever sleep?! You're like LTD02 on the audio forum.
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post #24 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 05:13 AM
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Not unless I have to, make sure to post your double stack setup when finished. Are you going for in-wall or a shelf?


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #25 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Rail.
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post #26 of 41 Old 10-19-2013, 05:36 AM
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Here are some more pics of double stacks:











Triple Stack:




Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
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Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #27 of 41 Old 10-21-2013, 03:48 AM
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Looking at all those stack jobs gave me a crazy idea...

For a large screen with enough brightness, do a quad pack, double stack of Sony's 4K VPL-VW1100ES to get 8K! eek.gifcool.gif

Only two problems I can think of...

1. I'm not sure such a machine exists to do scaling/blending of that high a resolution outside of NHK's lab's. confused.gif

2. I'm not that rich frown.gif
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post #28 of 41 Old 10-21-2013, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

Looking at all those stack jobs gave me a crazy idea...

For a large screen with enough brightness, do a quad pack, double stack of Sony's 4K VPL-VW1100ES to get 8K! eek.gifcool.gif

Only two problems I can think of...

1. I'm not sure such a machine exists to do scaling/blending of that high a resolution outside of NHK's lab's. confused.gif

2. I'm not that rich frown.gif

3. No content.
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post #29 of 41 Old 10-21-2013, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmReverie View Post

3. No content.

Well what I had envisioned would be that whatever content (be it Sony's own 4K server, RED's version, 4K Blu Ray or any other 4K source material) would be split, by said machine, into 4, 2K feeds. Then the VPL-VW1100ES would use it's magic to upscale those 2K feeds into 4K, totaling 8K.
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post #30 of 41 Old 10-21-2013, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

Well what I had envisioned would be that whatever content (be it Sony's own 4K server, RED's version, 4K Blu Ray or any other 4K source material) would be split, by said machine, into 4, 2K feeds. Then the VPL-VW1100ES would use it's magic to upscale those 2K feeds into 4K, totaling 8K.

Indeed.

As I am in a mean mood I am going to jump into the category of being a buzz kill. So to begin unless you sit really close your screen or have unnaturally good sight going beyond 4k is not going to yield any visibly better results. For example assuming a 100" 16:9 screen, that you are sitting at what THX recommends and that you have 20/20 vision you can only see up to a bit over 1400p anything beyond that we cannot see.

To get a benefit of going beyond 4k once again using a 100" screen you would have to be sitting around 7foot and 5 inches from the screen or closer. Basically you are going to have to sit uncomfortably close to a screen for watching films for beyond 4k to be beneficial.

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