VPL-VW1000ES and HTPC at 4k (native rez) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 236 Old 11-23-2013, 09:36 AM
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I think it was nvidia only and from what I know it's been fixed. Though I think the issue was forcing either 0-255 or 16-235 so when you chose one in nvidia's control panel nothing would change. Media players like MPC-HC have their own RGB black level control options so the issue wasn't a big deal for media playback.

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post #92 of 236 Old 11-23-2013, 10:13 AM
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There are registry tweaks available for NVidia and Intel GPUs now which allow you to force PC levels. ATI should have a working switch in the GPU control panel. So, level problems should be solved atm.
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post #93 of 236 Old 11-23-2013, 10:35 AM
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So do all the cool kids use pc levels these days?
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post #94 of 236 Old 11-23-2013, 01:09 PM
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The cool kids set/force the GPU to PC levels output (but eventually switch the video renderer to TV levels if needed). If you set the GPU to TV levels, the GPU will take the Windows desktop (which includes the video renderer's output) and stretch it to TV levels behind the back of the video renderer, probably in 8bit, which can introduce banding problems. So the recommended setup is to switch the GPU to PC levels. That way the GPU will send the video renderer's output untouched to the display. If the video renderer supports TV levels output, the final GPU output will still be TV levels, but the GPU won't even know that, and as a result won't damage the image quality.

At least that is my recommendation.
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post #95 of 236 Old 11-23-2013, 01:29 PM
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Ok good to know, thanks! I will just set the "with the Nvidia settings" radio button and have it output 0-255 and set all "enhancements" to off.
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post #96 of 236 Old 11-24-2013, 07:57 AM
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This is interesting.

I've started using JRiver with MadVR at 1080, and I'm seeing significantly less loss in sharpness when I use 2.35 aspect mode on the vw1000. I'm also seeing other improvements, like less banding and better audio-video sync, compared to XBMC.

One impressive aspect is that it does all video processing in floating point, then dithers down to 8 bits, so it does a great job with processing, including things like decoding, color correction, and gamma tweaks.

I don't have a 4k video card, yet, so I can't comment on how it scales compared to RC. Perhaps someone could post close-up pictures?
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post #97 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 06:42 AM
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About the glitches I had with the Club3D HD7950: I installed MSI Afterburner and crancked up the clocks and memory. This completely solved the glitches problem.

But the problem is that I cannot decide which config I like most.

Setup 1:
Play 1080p Blu-Ray => HTPC with MPC-HC send out 1080p to VW1000 => VW1000 Reality Creation @10 and FI set to LOW

Setup 2:
Play 1080p Blu-Ray => HTPC with MPC-HC => madVR that upscales 2K to 4K with JINC3+AR => send out native 4K to VW1000 => VW1000 Reality Creation OFF and FI OFF (because not available!)

For non-panning scenes setup 2 is the absolute winner. You can CLEARLY see the upscaling is top-notch!!!
For panning scenes setup 1 wins by far. The FI on the VW1000 works just flawless with only very occasionally some visible artifacts.

There is another scenario which I m going to test tonight but I have no idea if the GPU will handle it: use madVR's Smooth Motion. But madVR's Smooth Motion is a pretty heavy thing itself and my GPU is already having a hard time doing the 2K to 4K upscaling with the JINC3 algorithm.
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post #98 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 06:51 AM
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madVR's SmoothMotion FRC will not help, unless Sony's 24Hz implementation sucks (which I don't think it does). The one and only purpose of SmoothMotion FRC is to avoid motion judder getting introduced through a mismatch of movie framerate vs. display refresh rate. Frame interpolation is something completely different: It actually tries to improve the motion smoothness by introducing unique new frames, trying to simulate a source with a higher framerate.

Or in short: madVR's SmoothMotion FRC aims at faithfully reproducing the original source in its original framerate as well as possible. Sony's FI tries to modify the source to make it appear smoother than it actually is.

Some people like FI, others don't. FI does make things (especially camera pans) much smoother, but it also introduces the "video look". So it's a matter of taste...
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post #99 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

madVR's SmoothMotion FRC will not help, unless Sony's 24Hz implementation sucks (which I don't think it does). The one and only purpose of SmoothMotion FRC is to avoid motion judder getting introduced through a mismatch of movie framerate vs. display refresh rate. Frame interpolation is something completely different: It actually tries to improve the motion smoothness by introducing unique new frames, trying to simulate a source with a higher framerate.

Or in short: madVR's SmoothMotion FRC aims at faithfully reproducing the original source in its original framerate as well as possible. Sony's FI tries to modify the source to make it appear smoother than it actually is.

Some people like FI, others don't. FI does make things (especially camera pans) much smoother, but it also introduces the "video look". So it's a matter of taste...
Thanks for jumping in on this one Madshi.
This means I do not need Smooth Motion at all: I m bitstreaming audio (so I don t use Reclock) and when I config AMDs control panel to 3840x2160@23 I get madVR reporting a dropped frame every 30 minutes. This corresponds 100% with what happens real-time; the dropped frame counter in madVR reports 4 dropped frames after a 2 hour movie. btw. the 1080p@23 mode in AMDs control panel is even more accurate: madVR reports 1 dropped frame every 1,35 hours. Pretty impressive accuracy if you ask me!

Ok, this leaves me with SVP (www.svp-team.com/). Using this would give FI (on htpc) AND madVRs upscaling. But I think no current PC config will handle madVR JINC3+AR 2K to 4K upscaling PLUS svp HTPC FI with high quality settings.

I never liked FI until Sony introduced it. The FI on the VW1000 is pretty impressive and pans look sharp like hell. Like I said, I m in doubt which I prefer more: beeing able to use madVRs JINC3+AR upscaling or give this up but have Sony's FI work....... choices choices smile.gif
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post #100 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post



Ok, this leaves me with SVP (www.svp-team.com/). Using this would give FI (on htpc) AND madVRs upscaling. But I think no current PC config will handle madVR JINC3+AR 2K to 4K upscaling PLUS svp HTPC FI with high quality settings.

I'll give this a shot 1 night this week just to see what happens, I have a 3770K @ 4.0 ghz / 32 GB ram / 780 GTX Ti.

Are there any options for adding in a sharpening process?
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post #101 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 08:17 AM
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For sharpening there are tons of different AviSynth scripts available, which you could chain in by using the ffdshow raw video processor. That would be *before* upscaling, though. Ideally sharpening after upscaling is better. But sharpening before upscaling should still work alright. Alternatively you could try one of the custom pixel shader sharpening scripts. For that you'd need to use a media player which supports custom pixel shaders, e.g. MPC-HC. Those custom pixel shader scripts are usually not very complex, though, and can't compete with good AviSynth scripts. AviSynth runs on the CPU, custom pixel shaders run on the GPU. AviSynth runs before madVR upscaling, custom pixel shaders can be run either before or after madVR upscaling.

Recommended AviSynth sharpening scripts would be e.g. LimitedSharpenFaster or FineSharp (or others). Here's a comparison site with mouse-over screenshots showing what some AviSynth sharpening scripts do:

http://www.aquilinestudios.org/avsfilters/sharpeners.html

However, this is mostly targetted at anime. Some of those algorithms are less useful with filmed movie content.
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post #102 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

For sharpening there are tons of different AviSynth scripts available, which you could chain in by using the ffdshow raw video processor. That would be *before* upscaling, though. Ideally sharpening after upscaling is better. But sharpening before upscaling should still work alright. Alternatively you could try one of the custom pixel shader sharpening scripts. For that you'd need to use a media player which supports custom pixel shaders, e.g. MPC-HC. Those custom pixel shader scripts are usually not very complex, though, and can't compete with good AviSynth scripts. AviSynth runs on the CPU, custom pixel shaders run on the GPU. AviSynth runs before madVR upscaling, custom pixel shaders can be run either before or after madVR upscaling.

Recommended AviSynth sharpening scripts would be e.g. LimitedSharpenFaster or FineSharp (or others). Here's a comparison site with mouse-over screenshots showing what some AviSynth sharpening scripts do:

http://www.aquilinestudios.org/avsfilters/sharpeners.html

However, this is mostly targetted at anime. Some of those algorithms are less useful with filmed movie content.
You are talking about sharpening but I m talking about FI. A sharpening filter will only make the picture look sharper but will not take care of smoother pans (which is what Sony's FI does). The combination of your JINC3+AR scaling + a little bit (value 10) RC on the Sony already makes the picture razor sharp. I m not looking for more sharpeness but I m looking for a HTPC Frame Interpolation solution. The only good one out there is SVP but when you want good quality with that (read high settings) it will use a lot of GPU+CPU but I don t have much GPU/CPU left (especially GPU) because I upscale 2K to 4K with your JINC3+AR algo.
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post #103 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 08:58 AM
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I was not replying to you, but to zombie10k.
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post #104 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 08:59 AM
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I was not replying to you, but to zombie10k.
sorry (zombies reply was on the previous page)
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post #105 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 09:00 AM
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Zombie, why would you want a sharpening filter? The VW1000 is already razor sharp.
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post #106 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 09:09 AM
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madshi - thanks for the info!! I'll have to experiment with your recommendations.

Sander - I sit close to my 142" and wouldn't mind a little extra sharpening on the 1080P -> 4K scaling, just something that isn't as aggressive as the RC from a 1080P source. It would be great if the Darbee was able to pass a 4K signal.
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post #107 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Thanks for jumping in on this one Madshi.
This means I do not need Smooth Motion at all: I m bitstreaming audio (so I don t use Reclock) and when I config AMDs control panel to 3840x2160@23 I get madVR reporting a dropped frame every 30 minutes. This corresponds 100% with what happens real-time; the dropped frame counter in madVR reports 4 dropped frames after a 2 hour movie. btw. the 1080p@23 mode in AMDs control panel is even more accurate: madVR reports 1 dropped frame every 1,35 hours. Pretty impressive accuracy if you ask me!

Ok, this leaves me with SVP (www.svp-team.com/). Using this would give FI (on htpc) AND madVRs upscaling. But I think no current PC config will handle madVR JINC3+AR 2K to 4K upscaling PLUS svp HTPC FI with high quality settings.

I never liked FI until Sony introduced it. The FI on the VW1000 is pretty impressive and pans look sharp like hell. Like I said, I m in doubt which I prefer more: beeing able to use madVRs JINC3+AR upscaling or give this up but have Sony's FI work....... choices choices smile.gif

You can have both. Not Sony's specific implementation, but SVP Smooth Video is fantastic. This way you'll be able to have MadVR upscaling and FI.

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post #108 of 236 Old 11-25-2013, 07:31 PM
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4K HTPC owners, check out this video:

http://box.houkouonchi.jp/4k/beauty_taiwan_4k_final-ed.mp4

There's a few scenes that look great in this 1.6gb clip
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post #109 of 236 Old 11-26-2013, 01:45 AM
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You can have both. Not Sony's specific implementation, but SVP Smooth Video is fantastic. This way you'll be able to have MadVR upscaling and FI.
Like I said. No current (HT)PC can handle the highest SVP quality settings + madVR JINC3+AR and all this for 2K to 4K scaling.
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post #110 of 236 Old 11-26-2013, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

4K HTPC owners, check out this video:

http://box.houkouonchi.jp/4k/beauty_taiwan_4k_final-ed.mp4

There's a few scenes that look great in this 1.6gb clip


Looks quite spectacular on a 2560x1440 monitor as well....

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post #111 of 236 Old 11-26-2013, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post



Ok, this leaves me with SVP (www.svp-team.com/). Using this would give FI (on htpc) AND madVRs upscaling. But I think no current PC config will handle madVR JINC3+AR 2K to 4K upscaling PLUS svp HTPC FI with high quality settings.

I'll give this a shot 1 night this week just to see what happens, I have a 3770K @ 4.0 ghz / 32 GB ram / 780 GTX Ti.

Are there any options for adding in a sharpening process?

Curious to read the result
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post #112 of 236 Old 11-26-2013, 06:39 AM
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You can have both. Not Sony's specific implementation, but SVP Smooth Video is fantastic. This way you'll be able to have MadVR upscaling and FI.
Bad news. SVP is not going to work with the setup we want. When settings the resolution to 3840x2160 you cannot select 50, 59 or 60Hz. With a 3840x2160 output resolution we are limited to 23,976Hz which of course means that SVP will not work (well, it works but it does not do anything. In order to get the smooth motion with SVP you need to have eg. 1920x1080@59Hz.

If I am correct we need to have a HDMI 2.0 video card to be able to output 3840x2160@59hz.
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post #113 of 236 Old 11-26-2013, 06:46 AM
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Yes, and the GPU will have to be able to output 4:2:0 (which is something HDMI 1.4 doesn't support) because the Sony HDMI input is not fast enough for 4Kp60 4:4:4.

You could try 48p or even 30p, and maybe a resolution somewhere between 1080p and 4K, of course, but I'm not sure if the Sony will accept that.
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post #114 of 236 Old 11-26-2013, 07:15 AM
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Yes, and the GPU will have to be able to output 4:2:0 (which is something HDMI 1.4 doesn't support) because the Sony HDMI input is not fast enough for 4Kp60 4:4:4.

You could try 48p or even 30p, and maybe a resolution somewhere between 1080p and 4K, of course, but I'm not sure if the Sony will accept that.
What I want is to feed the VW1000 with 4K which only works when outputting 3840x2160. Only 23 and 24p work with this resolution. Even 30p is not working.

So this still leaves me with making a choice between your upscaling+no FI or VW1000s upscaling+FI. Pretty difficult decision.......
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post #115 of 236 Old 11-26-2013, 07:09 PM
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I have hated every FI I have seen, although I haven't watched the Sony's extensively. I just ordered a Geforce 780 Ti so I should be up and running with the new Htpc soon.
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post #116 of 236 Old 11-27-2013, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Sander - I sit close to my 142" and wouldn't mind a little extra sharpening on the 1080P -> 4K scaling, just something that isn't as aggressive as the RC from a 1080P source. It would be great if the Darbee was able to pass a 4K signal.
zombie, have you tried ffdshow's Unsharp Mask? It works really well in 1080p.
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post #117 of 236 Old 11-27-2013, 03:53 PM
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zombie, have you tried ffdshow's Unsharp Mask? It works really well in 1080p.

Apparently it causes ringing.

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post #118 of 236 Old 11-28-2013, 11:42 PM
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this is interesting. Toshiba has a bluray player / media player with this new UHD upscaling processor called the VTV-1222 from Marseille Networks.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1483335/technicolor-and-marseilles-demo-4k-image-certified-upscaling

In the above link, there are some comparisons to the scaling of the Sony BDP-S790 and the Oppo 105. The comments seem to favor the scaling of this relatively new company providing the UHD scaling.


This is the player:

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-BDX6400-Enabled-Universal-Player/dp/B00CBJYLRG#productDetails

82-116-198-05.jpg

There are no first hand user reviews. I'm curious if it would play 3D MVC MKV's from the USB drive or the network connection. This is tempting to try out.
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post #119 of 236 Old 11-28-2013, 11:45 PM
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Why spend the money though when you know your HTPC is going to be the best. From what I've seen it doesn't seem the Oppo 105 or 103 is hard to beat on scaling.

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post #120 of 236 Old 11-29-2013, 12:02 AM
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With the PC scaling, I am missing some sharpening or at least the Darbee.

Ideally i'm going to plug the Mede8ter into the Lumagen 2041 and be thrilled with the scaling / Darbee tweaks.
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