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post #181 of 236 Old 09-13-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You have to move your mouse to reveal each shot. Outside of the picture is NNEDI3, inside is Jinc.

Wow, there really is a clear difference between the 2. Thanks. Think I will stick with NNEDI3
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post #182 of 236 Old 09-13-2014, 09:36 AM
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Wow, there really is a clear difference between the 2. Thanks. Think I will stick with NNEDI3

You're welcome.


NNEDI3 is great, I use it to upscale DVDs to 1080p and I can (almost) watch DVDs again!
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post #183 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 07:42 AM
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The new Nvidia cards with HDMI 2.0 are coming out sooner than I was expecting

http://videocardz.com/52362/only-at-...specifications

The article states the card will be the GTX 980, released on September 19th, 2014.
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post #184 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The new Nvidia cards with HDMI 2.0 are coming out sooner than I was expecting

http://videocardz.com/52362/only-at-...specifications

The article states the card will be the GTX 980, released on September 19th, 2014.
Thanks Zombie, do you know which level of HDMI 2.0 (A or B) and which version of HDCP? If it doesn't have HDCP 2.2 it's not going to be of much use in an HTPC (unless you really don't care about bluray 4K), and given its release date it's unlikely it does (or it will be a level B).
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post #185 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 08:28 AM
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my guess is that it's the limited bandwidth and no HDCP 2.2. for round 1. We'll have to wait until one of the tech sites does a deep dive once it's released. I'm mainly interested in UHD gaming right now which the 780 GTX Ti can handle so I wouldn't likely upgrade until it's more future proof.
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post #186 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
my guess is that it's the limited bandwidth and no HDCP 2.2. for round 1. We'll have to wait until one of the tech sites does a deep dive once it's released. I'm mainly interested in UHD gaming right now which the 780 GTX Ti can handle so I wouldn't likely upgrade until it's more future proof.

If it's the limited bandwidth they'll probably have HDCP 2.2. We'll see. For UHD gaming it's going to be while before you need more than 8 bits .


As I'm not really a gamer I'm more of an AMD guy, so hopefully AMD will deliver the goods. They tend to work better in an HTPC in my experience, especially re 3D, black levels, and TMT compatibility.
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post #187 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If it's the limited bandwidth they'll probably have HDCP 2.2. We'll see. For UHD gaming it's going to be while before you need more than 8 bits .


As I'm not really a gamer I'm more of an AMD guy, so hopefully AMD will deliver the goods. They tend to work better in an HTPC in my experience, especially re 3D, black levels, and TMT compatibility.

Why will gaming only use 8 bits for awhile?
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post #188 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Why will gaming only use 8 bits for awhile?
Because the amount of data to move in 4K (UHD) in real time at up to 60fps (for fluidity) is huge, so I guess it's going to max at 420 8 bits for a while (for games).


I might be wrong of course


You could get 444 at 60fps in 8 bits with HDMI 2.0 level A though, and that would improve the quality (if the drivers/game devs support it).
If I had to choose between higher frame rates and higher bit depth for games, I'd go for higher frame rates, so I think the next step for games is 444 (for better chroma subsampling) rather than higher bit depth (so they can keep the fps up to 60).

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post #189 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Because the amount of data to move in 4K (UHD) in real time at up to 60fps (for fluidity) is huge, so I guess it's going to max at 420 8 bits for a while (for games).


I might be wrong of course


You could get 444 at 60fps in 8 bits with HDMI 2.0 level A though, and that would improve the quality (if the drivers/game devs support it).
If I had to choose between higher frame rates and higher bit depth for games, I'd go for higher frame rates, so I think the next step for games is 444 (for better chroma subsampling) rather than higher bit depth (so they can keep the fps up to 60).
I been waiting on the new graphic cards that are hdmi 2.0 to support the higher bandwidth. I know the current cards can do 420 at 8bits now. I guess I still should wait, I don't know.
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post #190 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I been waiting on the new graphic cards that are hdmi 2.0 to support the higher bandwidth. I know the current cards can do 420 at 8bits now. I guess I still should wait, I don't know.
If they have HDCP 2.2 (which you'll need for Bluray 4K to be playable with licensed players like TMT or PDVD) they won't have the full bandwidth as SI announced recently that the chipsets with both HDMI 2.0 level A and HDCP 2.2 were about to be delivered to manufacturers for the first products to be available by the end of the year. So a release date of 19th of September most likely means either 2.0 level A without HDCP 2.2 or 2.0 level B with HDCP 2.2. There is no way to know which one yet. If you're more into gaming, I'd go for the higher bandwidth. If you want to be able to play Bluray 4K with a BD or BDXL reader, then you need HDCP 2.2. If you want both, I'd wait a few months .
Personally I'm waiting for the first AMD with both HDMI 2.0 level A and HDCP 2.2.

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post #191 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If they have HDCP 2.2 (which you'll need for Bluray 4K to be playable with licensed players like TMT or PDVD) they won't have the full bandwidth as SI announced recently that the chipsets with both HDMI 2.0 level A and HDCP 2.2 were about to be delivered to manufacturers for the first products to be available by the end of the year. So a release date of 19th of September most likely means either 2.0 level A without HDCP 2.2 or 2.0 level B with HDCP 2.2. There is no way to know which one yet. If you're more into gaming, I'd go for the higher bandwidth. If you want to be able to play Bluray 4K with a BD or BDXL reader, then you need HDCP 2.2. If you want both, I'd wait a few months .
Personally I'm waiting for the first AMD with both HDMI 2.0 level A and HDCP 2.2.
I'll wait. I was just hoping the more bandwidth will bring better graphics.
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post #192 of 236 Old 09-16-2014, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks Zombie, do you know which level of HDMI 2.0 (A or B) and which version of HDCP? If it doesn't have HDCP 2.2 it's not going to be of much use in an HTPC (unless you really don't care about bluray 4K), and given its release date it's unlikely it does (or it will be a level B).
It's only a matter of a day or so until the full specs are announced at the Game24 event.

I'd be interested to see how this card copes with NNEDI3 to see if Nvidia can get closer to AMD in that respect.

Be interesting to see how long before AMD announces a new card with HDMI 2.0 as well.

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post #193 of 236 Old 09-18-2014, 01:34 AM
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You could simply use the madVR default settings, but on top of that enable NNEDI3 luma doubling (*not* chroma doubling). Your GPUs should be fast enough to do that for 1080p -> 2160p upscaling, at least for 24fps content with 16 neurons. Maybe you can up the neurons to 32, not sure.

And if your source has banding, you could also try the debanding algorithm in madVR, which is quite a lot better than what Sony offers in its Blu-Ray players and projectors (more effective debanding with much less detail loss).
Can you please clarify what settings are recommended? I updated to madVR v0.87.10 and am using the following (AMD Radeon R9 290):

chroma upscaling: NNEDI3 32 neurons
image doubling: use NNEDI3 to double Luma resolution - only is scaling factor is 1.5x (or bigger)
image upscaling: Jinc - 3 taps + activate anti-ringing filter
image downscaling: Lanczos - 4 taps + activate anti-ringing filter

Please let me know if these are correct. Thanks!

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post #194 of 236 Old 09-18-2014, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I'll wait. I was just hoping the more bandwidth will bring better graphics.
See here Nvidia Maxwell second generation with HDMI 2.0 support


Apparently it doesn't have HEVC decoding either, which makes it a poor choice for a vaguely future-proof HTPC.


Looks like we'll have to wait until well into next year to get something that will be good to go with games AND Bluray 4K.
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post #195 of 236 Old 09-18-2014, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
chroma upscaling: NNEDI3 32 neurons
image doubling: use NNEDI3 to double Luma resolution - only is scaling factor is 1.5x (or bigger)
image upscaling: Jinc - 3 taps + activate anti-ringing filter
image downscaling: Lanczos - 4 taps + activate anti-ringing filter
There's no "correct" or "incorrect". But I can give some comments. E.g. using NNEDI3 does help, with both image doubling and chroma upscaling. But the benefit of using NNEDI3 for image upscaling is higher than that for chroma upscaling. So if you have enough GPU power to spare, you can use NNEDI3 for both chroma upscaling + image doubling. However, it's worth considering whether increasing the number of NNEDI3 neurons for image doubling wouldn't bring more visible benefit than using NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling. I'm not sure what the correct answer is there, it might even depend on the content you're watching. Increasing the number of neurons has a small positive benefit, but it can sometimes be *very* small, so it's also possible that using NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling helps more than increasing the number of neurons for image doubling. In any case, if your GPU can do that, I'd at least use 32 neurons for image doubling. If your GPU can't do that, and NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling at the same time, then I'd rather drop NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling instead of lowering the neuron count for image doubling. 16 neurons is "ok", but 32 is often better. The quality difference between 64 and 32 is smaller than that between 16 and 32.

When using NNEDI3 image doubling, using Jinc for upscaling might not be necessary. A cheaper algorithm might do. But of course using Jinc won't harm, if your GPU has the power. For downscaling Lanczos4 + AR is fine. Alternatively, for large downscaling factors, you might want to consider using linear light (but only for downscaling, not for upscaling). Linear light downscaling produces stronger halos, though, because of which I'd use a 2-tap algorithm then, like Bicubic or Catmull-Rom, instead of Lanczos.
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post #196 of 236 Old 09-18-2014, 02:44 AM
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madshi it can never be stated enough, but thank you so much for your OUTSTANDING work!
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post #197 of 236 Old 09-18-2014, 07:36 AM
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madshi it can never be stated enough, but thank you so much for your OUTSTANDING work!
+1
Thanks for the above explanations Madshi.
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post #198 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 03:07 AM
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In case anyone is interested, and I know this doesn't pertain specifically to the 1100ES because it only accepts 4:2:0 color at 60hz, but nVidia just launched two new video cards (GTX 970 and GTX 980, the latter being the flagship card) that has a full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 port (support for 4K at 60hz 4:4:4 RGB). It's also significantly more powerful than the previous generation cards. This should be able to handle madVR's NNEDI3 image doubling better and definitely handle JINC scaling 1080p--> 4K with ease compared to last gen cards. For those looking for a cheaper alternative than a Lumagen to scale your blu-rays to 4K should pick one up while you still can. Zombie has compared a 4K lumagen to JINC and prefers JINC scaling over the lumagen. NNEDI3 is even better. I expect them to sell out within 48 hours and not be available until new stock comes which may take weeks. This card is "future-proof" and will work when we finally see full bandwidth HDMI chips on new 4K projectors. I just picked one up on Newegg.

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post #199 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 03:20 AM
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I just picked one up as well, this will be my first Nvidia card since Riva TNT. I currently have a 290X which I'm getting rid off. HDMI 2.0 is what sealed it for me.

Forgot to mention I use NNEDI3 and that was the primary load for my 290x. Hopefully the 980 is just as good or faster in that regard.
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post #200 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 05:42 AM
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I just picked one up as well, this will be my first Nvidia card since Riva TNT. I currently have a 290X which I'm getting rid off. HDMI 2.0 is what sealed it for me.

Forgot to mention I use NNEDI3 and that was the primary load for my 290x. Hopefully the 980 is just as good or faster in that regard.
I'm not sure how the lack of HDCP 2.2 support and the lack of HEVC hardware decoding makes these cards future-proof in any way especially for those who want to use licensed software players to play bluray 4K, but the increase of power is certainly a good thing for 4K upscaling and NNEDI3.


They might be able to deal better with the kind of 4K demo material we can access now, which is still 420 8 bits in rec 709 encoded in h264 for the most part (as they hopefully support 4K h264 hardware decoding), but they will likely struggle a lot more on Bluray 4K material with 420 10 bits in P3 or rec2020 encoded in HEVC as they don't support HEVC hardware decoding, even if we put aside the lack of HDCP 2.2 which means they won't support bluray 4K playback with licensed software.


What they bring to VW1x00 owners is limited, and they break the HDCP 2.2 protection chain.


I guess if you like swapping cards every few months it's a step on the way .

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post #201 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'm not sure how the lack of HDCP 2.2 support and the lack of HEVC hardware decoding makes these cards future-proof in any way for those who want to use licensed software players, but the increase of power is certainly a good thing for 4K upscaling and NNEDI3.


They might be able to deal better with the kind of 4K demo material we can access now, which is still 420 8 bits in rec 709 encoded in h264 for the most part (as they hopefully support 4K h264 hardware decoding), but they will likely struggle a lot more on Bluray 4K material with 420 10 bits in DCI or rec2020 encoded in HEVC as they don't support HEVC hardware decoding, even if we put aside the lack of HDCP 2.2 which means they won't support bluray 4K playback with licensed software.


I guess if you like swapping cards every few months it's a step on the way .
It looks like some are 1.4a and 2.0

MSI lists theirs as 1.4a...


For me personally, I don't need HDCP 2.2 from my video card, but do need full speed HDMI 2. From the reviews it has a hybrid h.265 decoder.
Although not a full blown hardware decoder the elements that are shared with h.264 are hardware accelerated. We need more in depth reviews from an HTPC perspective to see how well it does. But yeah you're right this isn't thee card for next gen bluray just yet, but is close enough that don't need HDCP 2.2

Although unlikely it hasn't been confirmed if HDCP 2.2 is absent and right now reviewers are saying it supports full speed HDMI 2.0 but Nvidia's specification page says only 30 or 24hz at 4k resolution. For HDCP it just says yes and no version listed.

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post #202 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 06:39 AM
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Thanks for the added details on these GPUs.


If they support full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 level A, it cannot support HDCP 2.2
And if they supports HDCP 2.2, it cannot support HDMI 2.0 level A.


SI has announced that the first chipsets with both features would only ship about now and that the first products would be available by the end of the year / early next year.


In any case, a product available today can't have both features as the new chipsets have not been made available early enough for them to be implemented.


If you don't need HDCP 2.2 but need full bandwidth, I assume you don't have a VW1x00?


Because the increased bandwidth is of no use to VW1x00 owners, as they are limited to HDMI 2.0 level B.
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post #203 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 06:58 AM
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If they support full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 level A, it cannot support HDCP 2.2
And if they supports HDCP 2.2, it cannot support HDMI 2.0 level A.
For CE HDMI chipsets that's definitely true atm. But I do wonder if that also applies to GPU HDMI chipsets? I don't really know this for sure, but GPU manufacturers seem to have quite a high ability to update their HDMI output functionalities. E.g. NVidia added 4:2:0 capability recently to older GPUs, which were released before HDMI 2.0 was finalized, I think. Do GPUs even use separate HDMI chips at all? I think it's quite possible that the whole HDMI logic is built into the GPU. If that's true, basically the only hard coded limitation might be the max bandwidth. All the "software", even HDCP could maybe be updated afterwards. I'm just guessing here, though, and I could be totally wrong.

Does anybody know for sure if modern GPU cards have separate dedicated HDMI chips? Or whether the HDMI output circuits are built into the NVidia/AMD GPU chip?

Besides, I hope that SlySoft will help us avoiding the need for HDCP 2.2, but we'll have to wait on that...
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For the most part it's true, but there are solutions out there such as http://www.elliptictech.com/products...ction/hdcp-2-2
that can work right next to an HDMI chip that does not include onboard HDCP 2.2, I think silicon image just happens to be the popular kid, along with Panasonic's chips.

If different manufacturers are implementing different versions of HDMI it's certainly possibly that one could include both full speed HDMI 2 and HDCP 2.2. But unfortunately HDCP version isn't a spec that is advertised on graphics card, we're going off of what's been implemented historically and availability of the HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2.

With the GTX 980 just being released it's a strong possibility they could incorporate full speed HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 and we wouldn't know it. I called EVGA Latin America and the guy doesn't know what version of HDCP 2.2 but confirms the HDMI 2.0 spec with 4:4:4 @ 60Hz capability.

MSI quotes HDMI 1.4a for theirs.

I'm not aware of any other graphics card with varying levels of HDMI implementation, which makes this confusing. My EVGA is in the mail and I should receive it shortly. I believe Seegs ordered one too but unsure of the brand. I have an RS57U and a VW1100ES in my possession at the moment. I don't really upgrade video cards often, but I'm having issues with compatibility with my Denon x5200, 290x and RS57U. Previously had an x4000 with no issues and with the x5200 in the chain i'm getting massive issues where my RS57 is unwatchable. I'm just throwing money at the problem until something sticks.
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post #205 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For CE HDMI chipsets that's definitely true atm. But I do wonder if that also applies to GPU HDMI chipsets? I don't really know this for sure, but GPU manufacturers seem to have quite a high ability to update their HDMI output functionalities. E.g. NVidia added 4:2:0 capability recently to older GPUs, which were released before HDMI 2.0 was finalized, I think. Do GPUs even use separate HDMI chips at all? I think it's quite possible that the whole HDMI logic is built into the GPU. If that's true, basically the only hard coded limitation might be the max bandwidth. All the "software", even HDCP could maybe be updated afterwards. I'm just guessing here, though, and I could be totally wrong.

Does anybody know for sure if modern GPU cards have separate dedicated HDMI chips? Or whether the HDMI output circuits are built into the NVidia/AMD GPU chip?

Besides, I hope that SlySoft will help us avoiding the need for HDCP 2.2, but we'll have to wait on that...
I think it's both madshi, a hardware and software solution at least the link I posted above from that company indicates a software solution as well as a hardware. I could be wrong though.
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post #206 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 07:44 AM
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With the GTX 980 just being released it's a strong possibility they could incorporate full speed HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 and we wouldn't know it. I called EVGA Latin America and the guy doesn't know what version of HDCP 2.2 but confirms the HDMI 2.0 spec with 4:4:4 @ 60Hz capability.
So if that is the case we can at least game at 60fps at 4:4:4:with this card, right? That is if the card could run the game at those settings. It looks like the 980 is a bit underpowered vs the 780TI at 4k resolutions.
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post #207 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 07:50 AM
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So if that is the case we can at least game at 60fps at 4:4:4:with this card, right? That is if the card could run the game at those settings. It looks like the 980 is a bit underpowered vs the 780TI at 4k resolutions.
Yeah at higher resolutions its a little underpowered however it overclocks very generously.
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post #208 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 07:51 AM
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Here is a high resolution PCB shot. I don't know how big HDMI chips are but I'm not seeing any that immediately stand out.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/852...ontPCBCrop.jpg
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post #209 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For CE HDMI chipsets that's definitely true atm. But I do wonder if that also applies to GPU HDMI chipsets? I don't really know this for sure, but GPU manufacturers seem to have quite a high ability to update their HDMI output functionalities. E.g. NVidia added 4:2:0 capability recently to older GPUs, which were released before HDMI 2.0 was finalized, I think. Do GPUs even use separate HDMI chips at all? I think it's quite possible that the whole HDMI logic is built into the GPU. If that's true, basically the only hard coded limitation might be the max bandwidth. All the "software", even HDCP could maybe be updated afterwards. I'm just guessing here, though, and I could be totally wrong.

Does anybody know for sure if modern GPU cards have separate dedicated HDMI chips? Or whether the HDMI output circuits are built into the NVidia/AMD GPU chip?

Besides, I hope that SlySoft will help us avoiding the need for HDCP 2.2, but we'll have to wait on that...
Good points, I was assuming that what was holding them up was the lack of chipsets, but maybe they were just being slow


It will be interesting to find out the final specs of these.
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post #210 of 236 Old 09-19-2014, 07:57 AM
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That same anandtech article has good info on the HDMI and H.265 encoding capabilities.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8526/n...x-980-review/5
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