Official JVC DILA-X500R / RS49U / RS4910U Owners Thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 2433 Old 01-03-2014, 03:51 PM
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Is it possible JVC put a hold on shipments until they resolve the issue?
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post #302 of 2433 Old 01-03-2014, 04:05 PM
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I would be surprised if they shipped anymore to their primary distributor. But I suspect the initial shipment was substantial. I am glad re the post that the fix would be by the engineers in Japan. It really has nothing to deal with the US offices. Its inane to suggest that JVC shouldn't use their booth at CES if they have one or send their sales people. They would be there on in transit already. And many businesses other than retailers are closed until Monday and I even know of one supplier who won't reopen until Tuesday. Fecal does happen with new product releases. Preorders are at special prices and that price is based on the potential for early adopter problems.

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post #303 of 2433 Old 01-03-2014, 06:05 PM
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Mine was shipped out yesterday and I get it Monday. I am going to take it and gamble on it being fixed via firmware.
On a more happy note I went and got a really nice shelving unit to put my JVC and equipment on. I will now be able to get the JVC perfectly vertically centered.I will post pics later as it is a really nice unit for not a bad price.

James Reid:D
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post #304 of 2433 Old 01-03-2014, 06:09 PM
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cardoski - I just did the same thing after being ridiculed by SOWK... cool.gif

What does the shelf look like?


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post #305 of 2433 Old 01-03-2014, 06:39 PM
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ead/300#post_24156731"]cardoski - I just did the same thing after being ridiculed by SOWK... cool.gif

What does the shelf look like?[/quo

Similar to yours. I plan on cutting the supports that are sticking up. I have to say the velvet I hung really does a great job, I took the picture facing the screen with a flash on and a lamp.

James Reid:D
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post #306 of 2433 Old 01-03-2014, 09:42 PM
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I'm really torn about this projector, I fired it up with blu-rays tonight, watched The Croods with the kids and Elysium with my wife. It has already been stated but fade to black and hard cuts with the iris kills the light output completely, or at least so low that the 2.35 box is indistinguishable for the rest of the screen, and it happens quickly in mode #1. The credits at the end of Elysium start out as a slow pan of the universe and it is extremely dark with pinholes of light for the stars as the iris is almost completely closed down. It looked absolutely incredible. The problem was when it switched from panning to scrolling credits...I definitely saw the iris jump in brightness about two seconds after the lighting change, but I was looking really hard for it and only saw it once in ~4hrs. Several mixed brightness scenes the dark areas of the picture blended completely in with the top and bottom of the screen (16x9 area), I was honestly pretty shocked at how great the ANSI and On:Off contrast was as well as the motion, the scrolling credits were perfectly smooth with the motion enhancent turned off and my Sony BDP-S790 pushing a 24p signal. I'm not entirely sure if the new panels helped in contrast, light output and motion but this pj is firmly in single chip DLP territory.

Now, if they'd fix the damnable HDMI issues so we could all get back to watching this wonderful looking projector.
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post #307 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 07:47 AM
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Woo Hoo!!! My X500R is finally on the way. Should get it next Thursday. I'm hoping there will be an update to correct the HDMI issues very soon so I can resolve that before I put it into service.
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post #308 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

I'm really torn about this projector, I fired it up with blu-rays tonight, watched The Croods with the kids and Elysium with my wife. It has already been stated but fade to black and hard cuts with the iris kills the light output completely, or at least so low that the 2.35 box is indistinguishable for the rest of the screen, and it happens quickly in mode #1. The credits at the end of Elysium start out as a slow pan of the universe and it is extremely dark with pinholes of light for the stars as the iris is almost completely closed down. It looked absolutely incredible. The problem was when it switched from panning to scrolling credits...I definitely saw the iris jump in brightness about two seconds after the lighting change, but I was looking really hard for it and only saw it once in ~4hrs. Several mixed brightness scenes the dark areas of the picture blended completely in with the top and bottom of the screen (16x9 area), I was honestly pretty shocked at how great the ANSI and On:Off contrast was as well as the motion, the scrolling credits were perfectly smooth with the motion enhancent turned off and my Sony BDP-S790 pushing a 24p signal. I'm not entirely sure if the new panels helped in contrast, light output and motion but this pj is firmly in single chip DLP territory.

Now, if they'd fix the damnable HDMI issues so we could all get back to watching this wonderful looking projector.

Auto Iris 1 crushes shadow detail. Try Auto 2, that seems to preserve the shadow detail while still closing as much and at the same rate as Auto 1.

This has been described by others and I confirmed it myself. I was looking at the scene in Avatar after Neytiri saves Jake from the viper wolves. In manual or auto 2 I can see the details in Neytiri's hair braids. Switching to Auto 1 the shadow details in her hair were lost. Give auto 2 a look.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I have the RS57. But I'm assuming this is the same across all models?
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post #309 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

Well, things just got worse. My pj will now not show an image, any image, regardless of what I do. Unplugging doesn't work anymore, factory reset doesn't work anymore, switching inputs and cables doesn't work... Good news is, I have a choice to watch either an all blue screen or an all black screen...and they were right, blacks are what this projector does best! mad.gif


Aren't you being overly dramatic about this? C'mon now it's been reported the uniformity of the blue or black screen should be looking good to you. Credit where it's due. Too much "glass is half empty" attitude going on. wink.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif










Not
to make light of your pain…… I would be so "WTF freaking hell is going on" with my message left for their service department and the engineers all on a long vacation in the middle of a major product rollout. No one encountered these problems in QC and final phase tweaking before they boxed them up and shipped? Or they felt no one would mind? mad.gifeek.gif
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post #310 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post

Auto Iris 1 crushes shadow detail. Try Auto 2, that seems to preserve the shadow detail while still closing as much and at the same rate as Auto 1.

This has been described by others and I confirmed it myself. I was looking at the scene in Avatar after Neytiri saves Jake from the viper wolves. In manual or auto 2 I can see the details in Neytiri's hair braids. Switching to Auto 1 the shadow details in her hair were lost. Give auto 2 a look.

thanks for verifying that you're seeing this on the 4910 as well. I think it could be easily missed if someone isn't paying attention in those low APL scenes. i've tried tweaking the various settings including bumping up the 'darkness' setting on the 57, but the dynamic gamma is too aggressive and it doesn't seem easy to counter what it's doing. auto iris 2 looks better and is preserving the shadow details.


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post #311 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for verifying that you're seeing this on the 4910 as well. I think it could be easily missed if someone isn't paying attention in those low APL scenes. i've tried tweaking the various settings including bumping up the 'darkness' setting on the 57, but the dynamic gamma is too aggressive and it doesn't seem easy to counter what it's doing. auto iris 2 looks better and is preserving the shadow details.

Zombie, could you explain again what you think is happening in the two ILA modes?

As I understand it: Auto Iris 1 is operating the iris dynamically, and ALSO changing the gamma dynamically. But the gamma changes tend to crush shadow details.

So how is Auto Iris 2 working? Is it strictly operating the iris only dynamically? (If so, that would seem to negate at least some of the benefits of a DI, since I understood some of the benefits of a DI is how it works in the context of a dynamic gamma).

OR...is the dynamic gamma still happening in Auto Iris 2 mode, only less aggressively?

Thanks,

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post #312 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 09:32 AM
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The only difference I can see between 1 and 2 is the dynamic gamma, the mechanics of the iris opening / closing are identical.

this is relatively straight-forward, I think they just went a little too far with the gamma setting in iris 1. My guess is in very low APL scenes is could be as high as 2.6 which is crushing details.

Setting 2 looks great so I don't see it as an issue. it would be nice though to give built in controls over this dynamic gamma. Maybe in the RS58 in 9 months... smile.gif


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post #313 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for verifying that you're seeing this on the 4910 as well. I think it could be easily missed if someone isn't paying attention in those low APL scenes. i've tried tweaking the various settings including bumping up the 'darkness' setting on the 57, but the dynamic gamma is too aggressive and it doesn't seem easy to counter what it's doing. auto iris 2 looks better and is preserving the shadow details.

Oh, sorry if I added any confusion, but I have the RS57. I just read and comment in here as well because I assume that most settings and potential issues are the same across the three models.

But yes, the auto 1 definitely crushes shadow detail on my RS57. On a somewhat related note, could you comment on my observations of white clipping using the auto iris that I described in the X700/RS57 thread?
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post #314 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

So, AVS has been very sympathetic to this issue and has a call into JVC. In addition, I reached out to Art Frierman for the Projector Review website and he has contacts in the top PR, Engineering and Project Administration levels and has assured me that "JVC" is now aware of the catastrophic failure of the HDMI input (my words, not theirs). With next week being CES, Art and some of the people from AVS will, no doubt, corner these guys for some answers. Lets just hope they have some by then..

Ditto about January 2nd being a work day...the postal service was open for crying out! I don't think there's any reason for JVC to send ANYONE to CES unless this problem has been fixed!

So, while typing this I just fired my pj back up...it still won't see my AppleTV, PS3, DirecTV box but is syncing up to my Sony BDP-S790 just fine... hey, if its only gonna see one source, I'm glad it was blu-ray.

If you are still experiencing HDMI input problems like these, please email proinfo@jvc.com and tell them. If they don't have it fixed by end of next week they'll have to issue a cease and desist for my emails and phone calls...if it doesn't border on harrassment, I'm not doing my best! biggrin.gif Stay tuned!

I have not received my RS-4910 yet as it is being calibrated first, but the calibrator told me he had a very hard time getting a signal, finally he did and was able to calibrate it. Which makes me wonder when I get it on Wednesday how will it handshake with my Denon AVR output!

I have already emailed JVC using the form given above. I highly recommend everyone do this, and keep the pressure on!
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post #315 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 12:22 PM
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Is anyone NOT having the HDMI issues? Is this a universal problem?

I have not unboxed my 4910 yet because of this issue and I'm not going to if it's a forgone conclusion I'm going to have issues, just in case I decide to simply return it.
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post #316 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Is anyone NOT having the HDMI issues? Is this a universal problem?

I have not unboxed my 4910 yet because of this issue and I'm not going to if it's a forgone conclusion I'm going to have issues, just in case I decide to simply return it.

Unless all of the other people that we have shipped JVC's to are just holding theirs like you (I doubt it) then there are a whole lot of people that must not have this problem, because they are not posting or contacting us about it.

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post #317 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 12:37 PM
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Unless all of the other people that we have shipped JVC's to are just holding theirs like you (I doubt it) then there are a whole lot of people that must not have this problem, because they are not posting or contacting us about it.

Given the number of AVS posters vs. members I think it's safe to say that the majority of people are observers.

In any case, anyone who *doesn't* have the issue please let us know.

I assumed everyone did so I haven't even opened the box.

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post #318 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 12:51 PM
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Unless all of the other people that we have shipped JVC's to are just holding theirs like you (I doubt it) then there are a whole lot of people that must not have this problem, because they are not posting or contacting us about it.

Yes, you shipped quite a few. I'm in the unenviable position of being in screen decision paralysis, as you know Mike biggrin.gif, but many in my position or those with pj's in place already may just be sitting on their unit waiting for a fix.
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I assumed everyone did so I haven't even opened the box.

Well, that's 2 of us.

But that leaves many with unknown status. I found it odd that no one has chimed in to say, "I'm not having any of the issues" and that's why I brought it up.

It would be reassuring to hear from a few members without any HDMI issue.
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post #319 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 01:16 PM
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Given the number of AVS posters vs. members I think it's safe to say that the majority of people are observers.

In any case, anyone who *doesn't* have the issue please let us know.

I assumed everyone did so I haven't even opened the box.
Not only that, but for those observing and not posting who have the problem and who bought their projector from AVS, why bother contacting AVS? It's pretty evident it's a widespread issue without a fix yet; what good would contacting the dealer do?

That said, why are you guys keeping your projectors boxed up? Why not use them? The only way to know for sure whether you have the issue is to try the unit out.
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post #320 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 01:25 PM
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My guess is that do to variability of use it is hitting some harder than others. And most expect it to be fixed, so those who know it is already known by JVC are less vocal.

I absolutely, positively have the issue and have had to do several "restarts", but last night I got lucky and was able to put in and out like 4 or 5 different discs without a lockup.

Didn't stop me from holding my breath every time I hit "stop" waiting to see if the PS3 main menu would appear or not. The switch between discs watching the extended edition of The Two Towers was a real nail bitter since I was watching with family and didn't want to have to reboot my new projector. Happily it didn't lock on me.

I'll see what happens when the dice roll tonight.
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post #321 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 01:28 PM
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I purchased from AVS and is sitting in the box as well. It would have been any ways as I a couple of weeks from getting some of my components and screen. My first projector ever (real home theater ever) Still in the box. Can't wait!
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post #322 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The only difference I can see between 1 and 2 is the dynamic gamma, the mechanics of the iris opening / closing are identical.
I was told at CEDIA that one mode didn't do dynamic gamma and one did. I explained to them that "no dynamic gamma" could mean no gamma changes at the chips (before the lens iris) or no gamma changes at the lens exit and screen (just near white crushing). They didn't know which it was.

Could it be that auto 1 doesn't apply any dynamic gamma, which leads to shadow detail crushing to our eyes since they generally require bigger relative differences with dark things to see the same amount of detail? If the iris just closed without changing the signal at all then I would expect some reduction in visible shadow detail to most people when the iris was near the minimum size.

One interesting test might be to put up a 10% video window on black and measure the center of the screen with no DI, auto 1, and auto 2.

There is also the 5%/0% 4x4 checkerboard on the 2nd edition of the Spears and Munsil disk. If the signal wasn't changed (just the iris closed) the intra-image CR for that image shouldn't change much between DI on and DI off, but if gamma was applied the intra-image CR for the image should go up with the DI enabled. I figured this is a good test pattern to show people an advantage that a DI can bring to intra-image CR and maybe address those who have said that they don't care about on/off CR because they only care about mixed images, not blackouts.

I think it would be really interesting to see the intra-image CRs for that test pattern for the JVCs and Sonys, although it can depend a lot on calibration. Not that you don't already have enough requests for information Jason. smile.gif

Thanks,
Darin

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post #323 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 01:52 PM
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I won't receive mine until late next week, however I did send an email to JVC expressing my concern with the HDMI issue and asked what course of action they were going to take for correction.
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post #324 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I was told at CEDIA that one mode didn't do dynamic gamma and one did. I explained to them that "no dynamic gamma" could mean no gamma changes at the chips (before the lens iris) or no gamma changes at the lens exit and screen (just near white crushing). They didn't know which it was.

Could it be that auto 1 doesn't apply any dynamic gamma, which leads to shadow detail crushing to our eyes since they generally require bigger relative differences with dark things to see the same amount of detail? If the iris just closed without changing the signal at all then I would expect some reduction in visible shadow detail to most people when the iris was near the minimum size.

One interesting test might be to put up a 10% video window on black and measure the center of the screen with no DI, auto 1, and auto 2.

There is also the 5%/0% 4x4 checkerboard on the 2nd edition of the Spears and Munsil disk. If the signal wasn't changed (just the iris closed) the intra-image CR for that image shouldn't change much between DI on and DI off, but if gamma was applied the intra-image CR for the image should go up with the DI enabled. I figured this is a good test pattern to show people an advantage that a DI can bring to intra-image CR and maybe address those who have said that they don't care about on/off CR because they only care about mixed images, not blackouts.

I think it would be really interesting to see the intra-image CRs for that test pattern for the JVCs and Sonys, although it can depend a lot on calibration. Not that you don't already have enough requests for information Jason. smile.gif

Thanks,
Darin

Darin, hi I got you're PM earlier, I just need some time to read over it.

using this specific scene as an example, here's the best way I can describe what I was seeing:

with the iris off and manually clamping to it's lowest position, it looks a bit 'flat' but can still see the subtle details, similar in appearance to my RS55. On my HP, I'm wishing the black floor would appear lower.

in auto iris 1, the iris will clamp to a smaller aperture and it crushes the details. Here is why I think it's some kind of gamma processing. When I do the 'menu test' (bring up the menu to force the iris open), then shut the menu off, I can see the iris close quickly, details are still there but then a fraction of a second later, it seems some processing kicks in and squashes the details.

in auto iris 2, the iris clamps the same but the details are still there and I'm appreciating the lower black floor with this configuration.

2014-shootout-14.jpg

without knowing exactly what JVC is doing in iris 1 or 2 position, that's the best way I can describe it. regardless of the specific technique, I think it's impressive to see such a dark background with those fine details popping through, it's convincing in a way I haven't seen on the previous JVC's and definitely not on the Sony 600. It's not perfect though, when that scene transitions to Tom Cruise in the chair, you can definitely 'see' the changes going back and forth but it's not as distracting at the iris on the 600 in the spiderman scene @ 29:00.

I hope you to get to analyze this soon, I'm certain you'll be able to deep dive into this much better than I can. I'll take a look at a 5% and 10% window later to see if this makes more sense between the 3 settings.


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post #325 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 03:21 PM
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Maybe you could request that answers be posted in only one of the three threads you posted the same exact question. Maybe the JVC 2014 range thread?

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post #326 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 03:26 PM
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Maybe you could request that answers be posted in only one of the three threads you posted the same exact question. Maybe the JVC 2014 range thread?

He posted it in 4 threads....you're slacking. wink.gif

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post #327 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Maybe you could request that answers be posted in only one of the three threads you posted the same exact question. Maybe the JVC 2014 range thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

He posted it in 4 threads....you're slacking. wink.gif

Uhh.....Internet Explorer error. Sorry.

Seriously, sorry. Was just trying to get maximum input since I know some owners will only stick to their thread of ownership. My apologies. Will keep it in the 2014 thread.
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post #328 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

in auto iris 1, the iris will clamp to a smaller aperture and it crushes the details. Here is why I think it's some kind of gamma processing. When I do the 'menu test' (bring up the menu to force the iris open), then shut the menu off, I can see the iris close quickly, details are still there but then a fraction of a second later, it seems some processing kicks in and squashes the details.
That does sound like a processing problem like you said. I wonder if this is just an outright error or the result of something JVC did purposely, like trying to appeal to those who seem to like crushed shadow details.

At least it sounds like JVC provided one mode where the iris works very well. I hadn't been very confident that would be the case for their first try, especially with one negative report about a pre-production version.

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post #329 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

That does sound like a processing problem like you said. I wonder if this is just an outright error or the result of something JVC did purposely, like trying to appeal to those who seem to like crushed shadow details.

At least it sounds like JVC provided one mode where the iris works very well. I hadn't been very confident that would be the case for their first try, especially with one negative report about a pre-production version.

--Darin

The Iris#1 gets darker than #2, but in my experience it doesn't crush blacks as much as blow out the whites (may have to do with my brightness/contrast settings as I have to unplug my pj every time and sometimes forget to recalibrate shadow detail). Anyway, the Croods looked great with iris#2 but I did notice everything seemed a little overcooked color wise...thought it was just the movie as this was my first time seeing the movie, I don't have any frame of reference.
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post #330 of 2433 Old 01-04-2014, 07:46 PM
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Here is a cool video showing X55 Vs X500

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/201401/jvc2014-V/0.htm

Credits to avbuzz.com

The X500 looks more detailed and color neutral, but i really wonder if those two projector are having the same color temperature, the X55 showing a lot blue stick (pause at 00:014 and look at the leather jacket. Also the texture details of the wall)

I am hoping CES will introduce more LED DLP projector (more or leass getting rid of the rainbow problem at 20X) othwerwise X500 seems to be a good choise.

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