Official JVC DILA-X500R / RS49U / RS4910U Owners Thread - Page 58 - AVS Forum
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post #1711 of 2347 Old 06-22-2014, 06:42 PM
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I'm waiting for my bulb to fall off the deep end for brightness because I have about 800 hours and it is a 1.5 year old B stock from AVS. It has been fantastic! I am at something like -8 for the manual aperture adjustment. I started out at about -12 or higher. Sorry, this is from memory. I have figured the new JVCs show their advances best on big screens.
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post #1712 of 2347 Old 06-24-2014, 10:05 AM
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A few quick questions about calibration. I got some good recommendations off this thread early on but, now that I am setting up my RS4910...

1.) I took the calibration settings into User1 space. What do I do for 3D content? Do I setup a second User2 profile with the same settings and use 3D Cinema?

2.) Curious with those that have a Oppo 103D what levels they have used on the Darbee in conjunction with the JVC e-shift being on. I have mine at 20%

3.) Is there any benefit for fine tuning the picture in the hidden services menu without specialty equipment?

Cheers
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post #1713 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 12:11 PM
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I'm curious about the Gamma tracking on the 4910's. In the past, JVC's gamma settings did not track well. Even the custom 2.3 or 2.4 modes did not work well unless you used the multipoint gamma controls to flatten things out. It looks like JVC has done away with the multipoint gamma controls, so there is no way to even out gamma if it doesn't track well.

So do the custom 2.3 or 2.4 settings track well?

Also, what is the deal with the MPC controls do they work or not? If they do not work, does eshift at least work?
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post #1714 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Also, what is the deal with the MPC controls do they work or not? If they do not work, does eshift at least work?
I can't speak for the older firmwares but e-shift and the MPC controls are 100% functional on this unit with the latest firmware. I also suspect they were working fine before this firmware as well. What you had were people expecting to see a huge difference with e-shift/MPC enabled compared to with it off. That isn't the case and has never been the case regarding eshift. I've owned a generation 1, 2, and now 3 e-shift capable JVC projector. Out of all of the software (and in this case hardware) sharpening and video enhancement features that have come out in the last few years, eshift and MPC have always been the most subtle of those enhancements. I actually like what e-shift does. I don't want over the top processing going on as it almost always makes the image look worse. JVC's marketing has obviously done their job well because people really are expecting a night and day difference with it enabled and are disappointed when they realize that isn't the case. Many of them have incorrectly mistaken it to be disabled because of that subtlety and this is what fueled that rumor that it wasn't working properly.

Also note that even if e-shift is disabled the MPC controls still work and process the image and make adjustments (sharpen the image).
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post #1715 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I can't speak for the older firmwares but e-shift and the MPC controls are 100% functional on this unit with the latest firmware. I also suspect they were working fine before this firmware as well. What you had were people expecting to see a huge difference with e-shift/MPC enabled compared to with it off. That isn't the case and has never been the case regarding eshift. I've owned a generation 1, 2, and now 3 e-shift capable JVC projector. Out of all of the software (and in this case hardware) sharpening and video enhancement features that have come out in the last few years, eshift and MPC have always been the most subtle of those enhancements. JVC's marketing has obviously done their job well because people really are expecting a night and day difference with it enabled and are disappointed when they realize that isn't the case. Many of them have incorrectly mistaken it to be disabled and this is what fueled that rumor that it wasn't working properly.

Also note that even if e-shift is disabled the MPC controls still work and process the image and make adjustments (sharpen the image).
Thanks,

I have played with eshift, so I know what to expect. It is subtle, but I like it. The MPC controls, especially detail enhance, on previous models were pretty noticeable at any value. If you looked at a sharpness pattern or a Luma pattern you could see the effect of detail enhance at 4 or 5.

Maybe as some suggested JVC just made the controls finer.



Curious to hear how gamma tracking is without the 11 point controls.

Also, I read that you can not disable eshift when focusing? How do you focus then? If you have eshift off, does it just turn itself on anyway when you bring up the focus screen? Is there a way to focus using a test disc with eshift off. How can you possibly get pixel sharp focus with eshift engaged?
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post #1716 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 02:30 PM
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What is the x500 streeting for? If verboten in thread, please PM me.

TIA.

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post #1717 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 03:54 PM
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What is the x500 streeting for? If verboten in thread, please PM me.

TIA.

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post #1718 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Thanks,

I have played with eshift, so I know what to expect. It is subtle, but I like it. The MPC controls, especially detail enhance, on previous models were pretty noticeable at any value. If you looked at a sharpness pattern or a Luma pattern you could see the effect of detail enhance at 4 or 5.

Maybe as some suggested JVC just made the controls finer.



Curious to hear how gamma tracking is without the 11 point controls.

Also, I read that you can not disable eshift when focusing? How do you focus then? If you have eshift off, does it just turn itself on anyway when you bring up the focus screen? Is there a way to focus using a test disc with eshift off. How can you possibly get pixel sharp focus with eshift engaged?
I took advantage of the auto-calibrate feature with the Spyder4Elite colorimeter and haven't done a manual gamma calibration with my Minolta CL-200 yet.

I think the issue with focusing you're talking about is only if you use the built in focus pattern. I disable the patterns when adjusting the lens. I use text on screen to dial in the focus because I use my JVC with my HTPC and that works fine without enabling e-shift for all lens functions.
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post #1719 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I took advantage of the auto-calibrate feature with the Spyder4Elite colorimeter and haven't done a manual gamma calibration with my Minolta CL-200 yet.

I think the issue with focusing you're talking about is only if you use the built in focus pattern. I disable the patterns when adjusting the lens. I use text on screen to dial in the focus because I use my JVC with my HTPC and that works fine without enabling e-shift for all lens functions.
How would you even do a manual gamma calibration without the multipoint gamma controls? You only have the custom gamma starting points like 2.3 or 2.4. There are three controls in that menu, but I don't believe they would be helpful. If gamma tracks well after your done greyscale, then your fine, but if not there doesn't seem to be a way to correct it like there used to be.

As far as focusing goes. I'm trying to understand the behavior:

If you turn OFF eshift and bring up the internal focus screen, is eshift turned back on anyway?
If you turn OFF eshift but disable the internal pattern and use a test pattern and bring up the focus screen is eshift still off so you can see the pixel grid?

Just trying to understand this and see that there is a way to use the focus controls so you can see the actual pixel grid with eshift off.

Last edited by curlyjive; 06-25-2014 at 05:25 PM.
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post #1720 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Let's keep our heads on straight. It's not a "much better picture". It's a very similar picture with a few refinements. Remember there are very few distinct picture differentiating features between the JVC lineup. What you're going to get, if you enable the dynamic iris on the X500, is a picture that has a much deeper black level and heightened contrast in darker scenes. The lens is the same, so the image will look as sharp as the other. You get a CMS so you should be able to dial colors in more accurately if you so choose. And you get e-shift, which doesn't add a huge amount to the picture but it's there. The X500 offers better 3D performance because it's brighter and handles ghosting better. There is a refined CMD and you get their rip off on Darbee processing called clear black. The overall picture quality when jumping from the RS45 to the X500 is noticeably better but it's not something I would say is in another league. The refinements overall do give you better PQ but it's not hugely better. If you watch a lot of dark content the DI is arguably the most provocative feature these new machines have. It works very well and does add a sense of value to the purchase. So that feature alone might be worth the upgrade.

I just want to thank Seegs for being so diligent in this response. The hyperbole used in these new model threads and the obvious owner bias has really left me cold to this whole hobby. I have found in my own life, that Upgraditis, as some people refer to it, is really just overcompensating in one area for feelings of inadequacy in another.
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post #1721 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

As far as focusing goes. I'm trying to understand the behavior:

If you turn OFF eshift and bring up the internal focus screen, is eshift turned back on anyway?
If you turn OFF eshift but disable the internal pattern and use a test pattern and bring up the focus screen is eshift still off so you can see the pixel grid?

Just trying to understand this and see that there is a way to use the focus controls so you can see the actual pixel grid with eshift off.
You've got it exactly right. What I do to focus the projector is turn off the internal focus pattern, turn off eshift, display a solid green field, and close the iris down as far as I can. This makes the pixel grid as sharp as possible and from there it's pretty easy to get the focus dialed in across the whole screen.
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post #1722 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 06:20 PM
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You've got it exactly right. What I do to focus the projector is turn off the internal focus pattern, turn off eshift, display a solid green field, and close the iris down as far as I can. This makes the pixel grid as sharp as possible and from there it's pretty easy to get the focus dialed in across the whole screen.
Great that there is a workaround.....totally bizarre that eshift turns itself on when the built in focus pattern is used!

But wait: In past models, even with the internal pattern off, you still get the square box in the center of the screen with the word "Focus" on it. You just don't get the green gridlines. So what happens with the 4910?

Does the turning the test pattern off still show that same box the word focus? Because if it does isn't eshift on for that? Or does that box not show up at all? Just trying to better understand.
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post #1723 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Great that there is a workaround.....totally bizarre that eshift turns itself on when the built in focus pattern is used!

But wait: In past models, even with the internal pattern off, you still get the square box in the center of the screen with the word "Focus" on it. You just don't get the green gridlines. So what happens with the 4910?

Does the turning the test pattern off still show that same box the word focus? Because if it does isn't eshift on for that? Or does that box not show up at all? Just trying to better understand.
It was never in the center. That box is in the upper left hand corner of the screen. Nothing has changed. You choose between keeping the image/input already on the screen to focus with or the grid lines. Both of these options are still here with the X500. Except this year with the X500 e-shift turns on with the internal gridline pattern.
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post #1724 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 06:36 PM
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It was never in the center. That box is in the upper left hand corner of the screen. Nothing has changed. You choose between keeping the image/input already on the screen to focus with or the gridlines. Both of these modes are still here with the X500. Except this year with the X500 e-shift turns on with the internal gridline pattern.

We must be talking about two different things. On both my RS40 and 4810 when you press the Lens control button on the remote, the first pattern that comes up is focus. You get grid lines with a grey center box wit the word "Focus" in the center. Each press of the button cycles through focus, zoom, and shift. IF you turn off the internal pattern, you still get the center box with the word focus or zoom or shift....just no grid lines. Your source is visible but the center of the screen still has that box.
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post #1725 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
We must be talking about two different things. On both my RS40 and 4810 when you press the Lens control button on the remote, the first pattern that comes up is focus. You get grid lines with a grey center box wit the word "Focus" in the center. Each press of the button cycles through focus, zoom, and shift. IF you turn off the internal pattern, you still get the center box with the word focus or zoom or shift....just no grid lines. Your source is visible but the center of the screen still has that box.
I'm fairly certain that box that says FOCUS shows up in the corner not the center. Maybe that's just when you use the internal patterns. I'm not home right now so I can't check. Could be a generational difference. It's been a while since I've owned an RS40. But I do know you and I are talking about the same thing.
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post #1726 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 06:40 PM
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I'm fairly certain that box that says FOCUS shows up in the corner not the center. Maybe that's just when you use the internal patterns. I'm not home right now so I can't check.
I've only seen it in the center. In fact I did turn off the pattern on the 4810 and use my own but the box was still centered. Always was with the internal pattern as well. Unless there is another setting to move the box, kind of how you can move the menu position...but I'm not aware of a way to do that.
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post #1727 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
We must be talking about two different things. On both my RS40 and 4810 when you press the Lens control button on the remote, the first pattern that comes up is focus. You get grid lines with a grey center box wit the word "Focus" in the center. Each press of the button cycles through focus, zoom, and shift. IF you turn off the internal pattern, you still get the center box with the word focus or zoom or shift....just no grid lines. Your source is visible but the center of the screen still has that box.
The words (Focus / Zoom / Shift) are in top right corner of the screen for this generation of projectors. I agree; it was nice when the words were in the middle, but with eshift always on when using the internal patterns, you have to use an external pattern anyway if you want to do the focus right.
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post #1728 of 2347 Old 06-25-2014, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
The words (Focus / Zoom / Shift) are in top right corner of the screen for this generation of projectors. I agree; it was nice when the words were in the middle, but with eshift always on when using the internal patterns, you have to use an external pattern anyway if you want to do the focus right.

Ok, that explains the difference then. At least there is a workaround I can live with. Not being able to adjust focus with eshift off would be very tough.
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post #1729 of 2347 Old 06-26-2014, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Thanks,

I have played with eshift, so I know what to expect. It is subtle, but I like it. The MPC controls, especially detail enhance, on previous models were pretty noticeable at any value. If you looked at a sharpness pattern or a Luma pattern you could see the effect of detail enhance at 4 or 5.

Maybe as some suggested JVC just made the controls finer.



Curious to hear how gamma tracking is without the 11 point controls.

Also, I read that you can not disable eshift when focusing? How do you focus then? If you have eshift off, does it just turn itself on anyway when you bring up the focus screen? Is there a way to focus using a test disc with eshift off. How can you possibly get pixel sharp focus with eshift engaged?
Finer range of adjustment on the new models, but there is still more than enough range to the adjustment. In other words, you will be messing up the image if you used all of it.

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post #1730 of 2347 Old 06-26-2014, 08:23 AM
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does anybody know what the minimum throw distance that is recommended on the high power 2.4 gain is. They took this off their website and I cant find it. In regards to screen width.

I am planning on getting a 150" wide 2:35 AR screen of the high power. My throw distance will be 18'. Planning to use new 2015 jvc projectors.

Also, is the high power 4k comaptable. I tried asking in screens sections, but no answer.

Thanks
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post #1731 of 2347 Old 06-26-2014, 09:18 AM
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does anybody know what the minimum throw distance that is recommended on the high power 2.4 gain is. They took this off their website and I cant find it. In regards to screen width.

I am planning on getting a 150" wide 2:35 AR screen of the high power. My throw distance will be 18'. Planning to use new 2015 jvc projectors.

Also, is the high power 4k comaptable. I tried asking in screens sections, but no answer.

Thanks
You can get up to a 158 wide image at 18ft, you should be fine. Also, we have many using their 4k Sony projectors with HP screens
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post #1732 of 2347 Old 06-26-2014, 11:00 PM
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Anyone experience with ISF calibrating the RS49? I m trying to calibrate my grayscale (use Chromapure with a i1 Display 3 Pro meter). I can get an almost perfect 20-100IRE RGB but the problem is 10IRE. It is WAY off (far too blue). I have to give the low end BLUE value quite some notches up but then 20-50IRE is completely off. I you look here http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/Cine...X700_C4HEd.htm it seems that a pretty flat RGB at both 10 and 20-100IRE should be possible but I can t figure out how.
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post #1733 of 2347 Old 06-27-2014, 07:59 AM
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Anyone experience with ISF calibrating the RS49? I m trying to calibrate my grayscale (use Chromapure with a i1 Display 3 Pro meter). I can get an almost perfect 20-100IRE RGB but the problem is 10IRE. It is WAY off (far too blue). I have to give the low end BLUE value quite some notches up but then 20-50IRE is completely off. I you look here http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/Cine...X700_C4HEd.htm it seems that a pretty flat RGB at both 10 and 20-100IRE should be possible but I can t figure out how.
Is it that chromapure is showing it as too blue, or does it look blue to your eyes?
Meters have a hard time with accuracy that low. It might be a limitation of the meter. If the rest of your greyscale tracking is even and it looks good to your eyes (no blue tint to blacks) I'd leave it.
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post #1734 of 2347 Old 06-27-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Is it that chromapure is showing it as too blue, or does it look blue to your eyes?
Meters have a hard time with accuracy that low. It might be a limitation of the meter. If the rest of your greyscale tracking is even and it looks good to your eyes (no blue tint to blacks) I'd leave it.
it is both the meter that shows the blue way off but also when looking at the 10IRE pattern it is way too blue
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post #1735 of 2347 Old 06-27-2014, 08:13 AM
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it is both the meter that shows the blue way off but also when looking at the 10IRE pattern it is way too blue
Have you rechecked brightness and contrast and your HDMI mode? What starting color temp are you using and what picture mode?

All enhancements off, especially Iris?

IF you compromise to bing down the blue error at 10IRE, what do your DE values look like across the range?

I wish they had left the multipoint gamma in place....this would be easier to fix if it was still there.

Last edited by curlyjive; 06-27-2014 at 08:17 AM.
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post #1736 of 2347 Old 06-27-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Have you rechecked brightness and contrast and your HDMI mode? What starting color temp are you using and what picture mode?

All enhancements off, especially Iris?

IF you compromise to bing down the blue error at 10IRE, what do your DE values look like across the range?

I wish they had left the multipoint gamma in place....this would be easier to fix if it was still there.
There is still a multi-point gamma, but instead of 11 points it's a 3-band control (low, mid, high). It's still pretty efficient so worth a try with issues like this.

Look P42 of the user manual.

For each band (picture tone = mid, dark level = low, bright level =high) you can select the color you want to adjust.

White (default) allows you to raise/lower gamma for each band, but you can also select R, G or B and adjust gamma for each color for each band, therefore fine-tune your greyscale in the low-end, middle or high-end of the greyscale as you adjust gamma.

So these not only allow you to fine-tune the greyscale, it's also the only way to adjust gamma when one of the presets doesn't give you the curve you're after.

As I said in the other forum, it's usually recommended to LOWER settings when playing with the offsets, otherwise you can raise your black level and kill your on/off contrast.

So if you don't have enough blue at 10% white, instead of raising blue, lower green and red in the offsets controls if you don't want to use the gamma controls.

These gamma controls are not as good as the 11 points we had in the older models, but they are still much better than simply using the offsets/gains.

Last edited by Manni01; 06-27-2014 at 10:12 AM.
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post #1737 of 2347 Old 06-27-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:Originally Posted by zombie10k 

The only difference I can see between 1 and 2 is the dynamic gamma, the mechanics of the iris opening / closing are identical.

this is relatively straight-forward, I think they just went a little too far with the gamma setting in iris 1. My guess is in very low APL scenes is could be as high as 2.6 which is crushing details.

Setting 2 looks great so I don't see it as an issue. it would be nice though to give built in controls over this dynamic gamma. Maybe in the RS58 in 9 months...


Zombie. what gamma have you been testing on?
I've been using 2.3
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There is still a multi-point gamma, but instead of 11 points it's a 3-band control (low, mid, high). It's still pretty efficient so worth a try with issues like this.
I wouldn't really consider that a true multipoint system, if you are referring to the three sliders in the gamma menu. Picture Tone, Bright level, dark level....Those actually existed in the 4810 but they where in other parts of the menu. It may help, but they are not a good replacement for a the 11 point system.

I would try to find another way to fix the issue at 10IRE and only use those controls if nothing else works.
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
I wouldn't really consider that a true multipoint system, if you are referring to the three sliders in the gamma menu. Picture Tone, Bright level, dark level....Those actually existed in the 4810 but they where in other parts of the menu. It may help, but they are not a good replacement for a the 11 point system.

I would try to find another way to fix the issue at 10IRE and only use those controls if nothing else works.
I never said they were a good replacement, I only said they were a good help vs simply using the offset/gains controls when trying to solve issues such as the one reported.


In fact the dark control mostly have an effect at the very low end (around 5-15% white), so would probably solve SanderDVD's issue, but hey, feel free not to try any solution that might work .
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I never said they were a good replacement, I only said they were a good help vs simply using the offset/gains controls.


In fact the dark control mostly have an effect at the very low end (around 5-15% white), so would probably solve the issue reported by SanderDVD, but hey, feel free not to try any solution that might work .
I didn't mean to offend

I was just suggesting checking other things first. I haven't read of anyone else needing these controls to fix grayscale or gamma issues so it makes sense to check other things. I played with them in their 4810 iterations before I calibrated and found them to be of limited use. They may work differently now.

If you've tested the dark control and found it to be limited to the 5-15% thats actually good to hear. Would help lower gamma a bit at the low end to help with shadow detail.
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I didn't mean to offend

I was just suggesting checking other things first. I haven't read of anyone else needing these controls to fix grayscale or gamma issues so it makes sense to check other things. I played with them in their 4810 iterations before I calibrated and found them to be of limited use. They may work differently now.

If you've tested the dark control and found it to be limited to the 5-15% thats actually good to hear. Would help lower gamma a bit at the low end to help with shadow detail.
No offense at all.


Here was the greyscale/gamma I got using only the JVC controls (gains at 100%, offsets at 30% and low/mid/high gamma controls) with one of the X500s I calibrated.


This was using a BasiCColor Discus (which is reliable down to reading my black levels)profiled to my i1pro2.


I was targeting a BT1886 curve.


I did this quickly as I have a Radiance but I wanted to see how close the internal controls would get me. The Radiance was physically out of the chain when I did this calibration.
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