Official JVC DLA-X700R / RS57U Owners Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:12 PM
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RS57 calibration first look

Projector has 15 hours, all low lamp so far. This is impressive considering the PITA the RS55 is to calibrate. The RS4810/X55 saturation did not track this well, so this is definitely an improvement.

Picture mode -> User 1

Color profile -> Custom 1 -> CM = on, magenta brightness -2

Color temp -> Custom 1 / 6500

Gain red -23, Gain green -22

Offset red -1, offset green -2


Gamma -> Custom 1 - 2.2, no other changes IRIS = OFF

Greyscale -

RS57-greyscale-1.jpg

RS57-greyscale-2.jpg

Gamma -


RS57-gamma-1.jpg

Chromaticity / Luminance -

RS57-chromacity-5.jpg

RS57-lumanence-1.jpg

Saturation tracking -



RS57-chromacity-1.jpg

RS57-chromacity-2.jpg

RS57-chromacity-3.jpg

RS57-chromacity-4.jpg


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post #362 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:17 PM
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Damn Mark! Ouch! eek.gif But I think you meant that comment for SOWK as I have not even commented on her hands. FWIW though, I thought they looked incredibly small, same with the other two SOWK posted. If you guys want to send me a copy of each though, I will do a very fair A/B/C "split" comparison and keep the winner for my troubles. biggrin.gif


Kevin, that was excellent. tongue.gif Sorry about Chicago! That was rough and I was pulling for ya. frown.gif I am not a GB fan!mad.gif

Sorry Todd. I was really tired and immediately went to bed after the post. Obviously I meant Sowk in response to his funny post. But if you think it applicable to you as well, feel free to consider it aimed at you. Anyway I can bring joy to the world here is fine with me. Happy New Year.

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post #363 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:19 PM
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That does look good and certainly better than my 45. I never could get green fully dialed in for whatever reason, but I just assumed it was due to my lack of calibration experience which is probably the case.
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

SorryTodd. I was really tired and immediately went to bed after the post. Obviously I meant Sowk in response to his funny post. But if think it applicable to you as well. feel free consider t aimed at you. Anyway I can bring joy to the world here is fine with me. Happy New Year.

tongue.gif

Happy New Year to you as well! smile.gif
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post #364 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

kevin the surface pro is great pc, I've been using it since the beginning of the year. Just when I thought this was the ultimate portable full PC, Dell released the Venue 8 pro w/ the Intel baytrail processor. Full x86 windows 8.1 install, no R/T crap.. full office 2013, cisco VPN software, etc. It weight .75 lb feels like a featherweight compared to the surface.

I use them for different purposes, but it's very cool to carry around an 8" full PC in your pocket that hardly weighs anything. cost is insane @ $300.


Oh that's so funny cause I looked at that exact model but it just felt toooo small for me to do any serious analysis/debugging for my job. Definitely a very cool looking machine. My Surface Pro is full 8.1 (not RT… yuck!… no full VPN support!) and so far I like it (especially the new backlit keyboard which should work nicely in the theater!)


Damn dude… what toys don't you own!? eek.gif .tongue.gif

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post #365 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cischico View Post

I wonder if calibrating the gamma to say bt1886 or whatever using Calman DDC where it can write directly to the projector would help with Iris Mode 1 crushing blacks.

How can you do that without an external vp?

There is no more 11 point gamma correction.


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post #366 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Here is the list of bugs so far:

If anymore I can email it to JVC

- HDMi switching freeze the projector
- Activate the focus control, e shift turns on regardless of the source
- Crushed blacks (why?) ...
You can turn off the internal focus pattern if you bring up the Lens Control menu. If you do this, then choose the Focus option in the same menu, you can use an external pattern and eshift won't engage if you have it turned off.

Also, the crushed blacks were, I believe, a side effect of the Auto 1 DI setting. There's no problem with Auto 2.
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post #367 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Took the plunge and bought the Spyder4Elite meter for the autocal. This is the nicest meter you can use for the autocal. Looking at the page for the latest models it seems to be the same software that my x90 needs to use for the calibration. For a little more than $200 JVC owners can now calibrate the projector as many times as they want and as often as they want. Bad news for professional calobrators as more and more manufacturers add this feature.
Awesome... I'd love to hear your impressions when you get a chance to try the JVC software out. I already have an i1D3 and a CalMAN 5 license but if last year is any indication it'll be at least 10 months before Spectracal gets their autocal software to support the new JVCs. I'd gladly cough up $200 in the meantime if the JVC auto-calibration software provides a decent solution.
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post #368 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

RS57 calibration first look

Projector has 15 hours, all low lamp so far. This is impressive considering the PITA the RS55 is to calibrate. The RS4810/X55 saturation did not track this well, so this is definitely an improvement.

Picture mode -> User 1

Color profile -> Custom 1 -> CM = on, magenta brightness -2

Color temp -> Custom 1 / 6500

Gain red -23, Gain green -22

Offset red -1, offset green -2


Gamma -> Custom 1 - 2.2, no other changes IRIS = OFF

Greyscale -





That is outstanding results Jason!! Hope I can get that close. smile.gif

Can you expand on the internal CMS usage (just to further dial in tracking errors after your calibration (and.. did you use CP's 125pt auto cal??))

Great job! Now the million $$ question… HOWZ it look now??

Kevin

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post #369 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:50 PM
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I agree... That is an amazing cal report.

Better then any previous year JVC.

I hope the removal of the 11 point gamma doesn't come back to bite later, but, that is what I call near "perfect"


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post #370 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 09:59 PM
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It looks really nice. I know what the 'clear back' setting does, give me a few minutes and I'll explain it.


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post #371 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 10:09 PM
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Mark has been working three solid days with one more to go before travelinh home 300 plus miles for New Year's and then returning in a few days. Mark is not happy. More later.

How's Mark's leg been feeling?
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post #372 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

RS57 calibration first look

Projector has 15 hours, all low lamp so far. This is impressive considering the PITA the RS55 is to calibrate. The RS4810/X55 saturation did not track this well, so this is definitely an improvement.

Nice. Is this using just the JVC controls to achieve this?

Have you tried with CalMAN 3D LUT and the Radiance? I am curious what the color checker shows for the average and max dE across all the colors in its color checker.

Any lumens, on/off or ANSI CR numbers?

Thanks!
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post #373 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 10:48 PM
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Ok, so folks want to put the DI under a microscope.. here we go.

Oblivion - 47:20, this is a frame grab from the BD, this is a very difficult scene to photograph.

JVC-iris1.jpg

See my notes, this is with the above calibration with gamma set @ 2.2.

Auto Iris 2 + clear black set to medium looks great... it's going to be very difficult for other projectors to reproduce this scene this well. I have to check this out on the 600 and 1000 soon.


note: the iris in this scene appears to be clamped to ~-15 manual.

imo, this is working well with my recommended settings. The iris is open during bright scenes giving that pop folks like with a bright image, yet it can close to to where we might run for max contrast + some mild gamma tweaks. I don't see any obvious pumping, so in general I think they did a good job on round 1.


lovingdvd - that calibration was all internal. Chromapure has a color checker too, I'll have to check it next time, getting a bit late now.

low lamp, D65, 17 feet from my 142" 16:9 = ~600 lumens

I haven't looked at CR yet but might be a good time to test my Minolta T10.
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post #374 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

How can you do that without an external vp?


The JVC software writes gamma tables/values or whatever you call it directly to the projector internally. I think it was mentioned that Calman can do this too via DDC.

If so then maybe Iris Mode 1 can be improved. Just food for thought.
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post #375 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

So no problem with HDMi and  the focus control, e shift turns on regardless of the source?

I also have an RS35U and am on the fence about buying the RS57! Is it that much better?
HDMI has been working OK since I powered down (knock on wood). I'm confident JVC will sort that one out. I had no issues focusing with an external pattern (how often do you need to focus, anyway?).

As to whether the upgrade is it worth it, only you can decide. It was for me, my RS35 is getting a bit "long in the tooth". Perhaps we need to measure projector life in something like "doggy years".smile.gif

I just watched House of Wax and I definitely saw ghosting issues with that one. Avatar looked great, House of Wax not so great. Haven't a clue why (but 3D is never going to take up much of my viewing time, anyway). Nothing is perfect but I think my new projector was worth the expenditure.

Years ago, the guy I purchased my RS1 from suggested that I stay off the forums for a while and just enjoy watching it. Sometimes we have a tendency of focusing on what's wrong and not what's right (or a penchant for "making a mountain out of a molehill"). For example, I consider the DI a bonus (it's currently set to -8, Auto 2). I haven't noticed any problems (and I'm not about to go looking for them). If it doesn't work out, I'll just turn it off. I just like to watch movies.

Life's short, if you can afford a new toy, go for it.

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post #376 of 1940 Old 12-29-2013, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Took the plunge and bought the Spyder4Elite meter for the autocal. This is the nicest meter you can use for the autocal. Looking at the page for the latest models it seems to be the same software that my x90 needs to use for the calibration. For a little more than $200 JVC owners can now calibrate the projector as many times as they want and as often as they want. Bad news for professional calobrators as more and more manufacturers add this feature.

Good, let us know how it turns out
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post #377 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

low lamp, D65, 17 feet from my 142" 16:9 = ~600 lumens

23,6 cd/mq on a 142" gain 1.0 should be about 414 lumens
Hope you didn't measure that on your HP 2.8 ...
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post #378 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 03:18 AM
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Thanks for all your insight Zombie, its very much appreciated! 

I'm getting quite excited about this DI implementation and how I can apply it at home. I use a neutral screen, 150" maximum and I managed to squeeze 14fl out of my X90 with aperture opened and on high lamp with almost full zoom (so squeezing every last bit of brightness out of it - I also found using 7000k as a starting point gained me an extra 5% brightness compared with 6500k)

 For contrast rich movies, I would reduce screen size to say 110" and this would give me over 20fl which enabled me to close down the iris to get better contrast for the contrast rich movies. Dropping down to 95" gave me over 30fl and loads of headroom for closing the aperture to -15. The only caveat being is that by doing this, you lose the scale and immersion of the bigger screen and its quite hard to accept smaller when your used to the bigger screen. 

It appears that with the new DI implementation, I will no longer need to do this. I can just watch everything at maximum size, keep the aperture wide open all the time now and the DI will look after the contrast and give me both scale, immersion, brightness and contrast - all in the one box. That’s pretty damn good! 

Would be interested if you did measure contrast Zombie, both native and dynamic. If I remember right, Ekki got about 28k native and 300-400k dynamic for the RS49 at open aperture, full zoom and over 1000 lumens so if the RS57 can hit around this 1000 lumens mark and even better contrast then I for one will be a very happy bunny smile.gif

The RS57 was reported as over 40k native at full zoom and open aperture so potentially we could be looking at over half a million dynamic contrast in this situation! I'm also preparing myself for the odd moment of catching the iris at work but as long as it’s a rarity rather than the norm then I think I could live with that. I'm not that bothered if its noticeable on end credits for example, I usually switch off at the end anyway. Maybe it'll be noticeable at starting credits but again, I wouldn't be too bothered about that - as long as it works good for 'the majority' of the time then that will be satisfactory for me. The gains will hopefully offset any negatives and your right in what your saying about seeing for yourself as I'm sure some people are more susceptible than others. 

The Sony VW85 was referred to earlier and its iris working making itself visible. I owned that projector too and I can't remember ever noticing it at work - maybe on credits, I can't remember but I had the DI permanently on and I though it was really good so I think some will be more susceptible than others. Maybe it was because my screen was a scope screen and I always filled the height so I never had black bars on show which might also make it more easy to see a DI at work? I don't know…..One thing I did notice when I side by sided it with my X90 was that the JVC nailed it on contrast, despite the DI. The Sony just couldn't reach the same black floor even with DI engaged. I'm sure these newer Sony's are much better now though as the VW85 is a bit of a dinosaur now (at about 3/4 years old!)
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post #379 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Took the plunge and bought the Spyder4Elite meter for the autocal. This is the nicest meter you can use for the autocal. Looking at the page for the latest models it seems to be the same software that my x90 needs to use for the calibration. For a little more than $200 JVC owners can now calibrate the projector as many times as they want and as often as they want. Bad news for professional calobrators as more and more manufacturers add this feature.

Unfortunately these are really poor meters due to variability between units. I am on my third one as the first two were so far out it was a joke. I validated them calibrating my monitor first and two of them produced visible pink casts. The one I have now is pretty close though thank goodness. I had similar issues with Spyder 3's before it. They are probably good enough for the JVC software for their primary purpose of touching up or optimising the built-in presets rather than an end-to-end calibration.

I will be curious to know how you get on as the program forces you to have the meter facing the projector and makes you find an optimal distance from the projector to calibrate. You could then cheat and turn the meter around to face the screen.

Ultimately though, this combination of software and hardware is absolutely no replacement for a professional calibrator, or for the experienced amateur, the use of a high-end meter like an i1D3 or i1pro with Calman. I did try cheating by having the meter face the screen, ran a calibration and compared it to the calman/radiance version and there were significant differences although both were better than nothing.
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post #380 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 05:12 AM
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here's the only question I have left after reading all this:

is there any noticeable change(good or bad) in regards to brightness, blacks, or contrast from last years models to this years with the DI turned off?

I've only had one other projector with a DI and I didn't like it, had to turn it off. it was a terrible DI though. but I would still be concerned if I'm sensitive to a DI, I may still want to turn it off some or most of the time. I'm assuming, like in the past, reviews will not cover this. I wish reviews would compare projectors with the DI off, because it's so hard to compare projector with bad DI's to projector with no DI's effectively. the DI always makes that projector look better on paper, but if it's too noticeable and needs to be turned off, then what? ie, last year I spent a lot of time deciding between an x35 and Epson 5020. the DI on the Epson always seemed to make it test better. deeper blacks and brighter whites, but I couldn't see how it would perform with the DI off.

I just want to make sure the implementation of a DI hasn't negatively affected the 'native' contrast.
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post #381 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 05:26 AM
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How's Mark's leg been feeling?


Thanks for asking Ron. Its fine, all healed and rehabed. I see the surgeon I think the first week in January for confirmation of my observations. Happy New Year.

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post #382 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Unfortunately these are really poor meters due to variability between units. I am on my third one as the first two were so far out it was a joke. I validated them calibrating my monitor first and two of them produced visible pink casts. The one I have now is pretty close though thank goodness. I had similar issues with Spyder 3's before it. They are probably good enough for the JVC software for their primary purpose of touching up or optimising the built-in presets rather than an end-to-end calibration.

I will be curious to know how you get on as the program forces you to have the meter facing the projector and makes you find an optimal distance from the projector to calibrate. You could then cheat and turn the meter around to face the screen.

Ultimately though, this combination of software and hardware is absolutely no replacement for a professional calibrator, or for the experienced amateur, the use of a high-end meter like an i1D3 or i1pro with Calman. I did try cheating by having the meter face the screen, ran a calibration and compared it to the calman/radiance version and there were significant differences although both were better than nothing.

Hi Jon. A high end meter? smile.gif These are not high end meters but good meters, much better than the bottom of the barrel Spyders,

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post #383 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


is there any noticeable change(good or bad) in regards to brightness, blacks, or contrast from last years models to this years with the DI turned off?

Am' I the only one worried for the 23 cd/m2 measured on a HP 2.8 gain screen ?
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post #384 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Qualunquemente View Post

Am' I the only one worried for the 23 cd/m2 measured on a HP 2.8 gain screen ?

yes you are the only one worried because I already provided the lumen output with a quality light meter... smile.gif

color meters are generally not used for measuring light output and it was nowhere near the angle necessary to measure the full gain of the screen.


so we don't have folks running scared, I'll repeat the results.... cool.gif

17 feet from the 142" 16:9, center screen measurement (facing the projector) with low lamp was 600 lumens. Remember this is @ D65, I had to knock down green and red which is going to cost a bit of light right there.

Of course even in low lamp it looks nice and bright in person because I am getting a decent amount of gain based on where I have the projector positioned.


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post #385 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 06:29 AM
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600 lumens is pretty good. At 17ft, there is zoom left and also high lamp mode so at a wild guess at full zoom and HL we are maybe around the 1000 mark for maximum calibrated lumens. It was mentioned above about native contrast being reduced due to DI but all the specs are pointing towards an increase and I can't see why it would be reduced. Its interesting to note that with my previous RS65 the variance between aperture open and closed was that closed aperture was 40 something% of the lumens of open aperture. A few days back we had a post showing this number to be 30%. This would indicate that the manual aperture range has moved this year and it shuts down even more than it did previously, and the more you close it, the bigger the native contrast. I suppose it stands to reason that this could be a factor in why the native numbers are increased so much this year, especially on the dual aperture machines (RS57/67) 

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post #386 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

RS57 calibration first look

Projector has 15 hours, all low lamp so far. This is impressive considering the PITA the RS55 is to calibrate. The RS4810/X55 saturation did not track this well, so this is definitely an improvement.

Picture mode -> User 1

Color profile -> Custom 1 -> CM = on, magenta brightness -2

Color temp -> Custom 1 / 6500

Gain red -23, Gain green -22

Offset red -1, offset green -2


Gamma -> Custom 1 - 2.2, no other changes IRIS = OFF

Greyscale -

RS57-greyscale-1.jpg

RS57-greyscale-2.jpg

Gamma -


RS57-gamma-1.jpg

Chromaticity / Luminance -

RS57-chromacity-5.jpg

RS57-lumanence-1.jpg

Saturation tracking -


RS57-chromacity-1.jpg

RS57-chromacity-2.jpg

RS57-chromacity-3.jpg

RS57-chromacity-4.jpg

Thank you, so if I buy the RS57 and use these values is it worth getting a pro to do calibration?


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post #387 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 07:52 AM
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Hi, I only posted the calibration info so folks can get an idea of what adjustments were necessary for this particular copy. It's going to vary from machine to machine, especially greyscale.

the other baseline info (color gamut and gamma) is a good starting point though.


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post #388 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Hi, I only posted the calibration info so folks can get an idea of what adjustments were necessary for this particular copy. It's going to vary from machine to machine, especially greyscale.

the other baseline info (color gamut and gamma) is a good starting point though.

we need more of those "Zombie-SnapShots".

Its the only way I am going to ever get the wife to allow me to "complete the blackout" of the room. I always start her off by saying "look at how nice his all black ceiling looks"!

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post #389 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 08:56 AM
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Wow, that is a big drop on the Green gain and that will cost a lot of brightness right there. I personally try and avoid any alteration of green with gains as this is where you get your brightness. I'm stunned that the JVC is this deficient in Blue on the upper end. Will be interesting to see if I find the same thign with the X700. Great job Zombie! On another note, why a gamma of 2.2? Is that because of the room your in? I would think a gamma of 2.4 would be perfect for this type of projector, or better yet BT1886 (which is what I use exclusively now in my room).

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post #390 of 1940 Old 12-30-2013, 09:03 AM
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Kris, do you like BT1886 a lot more then 2.2 or 2.4?

Also what do you use to measure your starting black level measurement?

Or do you use Tom's common one of: white/black values of 120/0.03 cd/m2


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