Official JVC DLA-X700R / RS57U Owners Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

The dynamic iris is a mixed blessing. It simply does not work in an acceptable way with normal credits (white text on black background). The instability of white and black levels is very distracting. With non credits it works well, though.

Agreed. I really don't like what it does with things like credits. For an "OCD" type like myself, it is bothersome. However, for the vast majority of the movies themselves it seems to look great and improves the presentation. So I know the logical/sane choice is to use it.

I'd love to see something in the future that adds "meta data" per individual movies which dynamic iris systems could use to perfect the process. Not sure how something like that could be implemented, but I like the concept (maybe a separate box with a downloadable database for individual movies that syncs with the projector's DI system?).
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post #902 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by stef2 View Post

We watched Epic in Blu Ray last night. I am still amazed at the picture my RS57 throws! smile.gif

Agreed! We watched The Avengers in 3D last night on the 57 and holy sheeot was that a significant upgrade to my old RS55 (not even in the same ballpark!), as I knew this 3D disc well.

FWIW - I had an old industry well known (shall remain nameless per his request), THX guy over from my "old days"; a man I hold in the highest regard for the definition of "videophile" and audio Guru (helped me get started in audio calibration/equalization biz b4 it went teets-up). He thought between Elysium Min4K edition using the xv color mode & The Avengers in 3D, it was one of the finest HT presentations he had ever seen! Not trying to gloat or anything but just feeling a bit "puffy chested" from a man like that. smile.gif

If Elysium Min4K isn't 4K (and we know it's not of course), I shutter to think what these future batches of true 4K JVCs will look like (b/c OMG the xv color presentation of this disc was frickin' amazing! (and no offense but who cares about the beginning credits taking a few second to equalize w/ the II! rolleyes.gif ) biggrin.gif

Well Rich?? . . . What say you on your new toy (congrats BTW)!?
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post #903 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 01:04 PM
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post #904 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 01:56 PM
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Rich,

I am hoping you still have you RS55 and can provide a direct comparison. I would really appreciate your thoughts on the level of improvements offered in the RS57. The RS55 is a very good projector. Some are suggesting the RS57 is a very signifcant upgrade. I look forward to your comments.

John
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post #905 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 02:48 PM
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I've had the 55 and 57 in a direct A/B, both with new lamps, both fully calibrated. The most obvious difference is in low APL scenes where the iris / dynamic gamma can do it's thing. In mixed / bright scenes, it's much more difficult to tell them apart.

if you don't A/B with all other conditions being the same, it's difficult to provide this comparison.
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post #906 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 02:52 PM
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post #907 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I've had the 55 and 57 in a direct A/B, both with new lamps, both fully calibrated. The most obvious difference is in low APL scenes where the iris / dynamic gamma can do it's thing. In mixed / bright scenes, it's much more difficult to tell them apart.

if you don't A/B with all other conditions being the same, it's difficult to provide this comparison.

You must have gotten real lucky w/ your 55 because compared to mine it's a significant difference in my theater. Another 55 owner of AVF had a similar reaction (to mine). As well ViperAV thought the difference between his old x55==>x500 was stunning and a clear upgrade.

I agree with your last comment somewhat but when you know your gear well and replay known material, you can pretty much tell what you just bought (especially when your eyes open wider and you use comments like… "holy sh**!" eek.gif). wink.gif

That being said… maybe mine was a dog and I didn't know it. smile.gif

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post #908 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

You must have gotten real lucky w/ your 55 because compared to mine it's a significant difference in my theater. Another 55 owner of AVF had a similar reaction (to mine). As well ViperAV thought the difference between his old x55==>x500 was stunning and a clear upgrade.

I agree with your last comment somewhat but when you know your gear well and replay known material, you can pretty much tell what you just bought (especially when your eyes open wider and you use comments like… "holy sh**!" eek.gif). wink.gif

That being said… maybe mine was a dog and I didn't know it. smile.gif

I'm just curious if you had the chance to A/B them like Zombie has. I got into a little argument a month or so back in the forum about PQ differences between generations of JVCs and how little has changed between them. I've compared an X3 to an X30 and then an X55R to X90 and honestly other than differences in contrast and slight unit-to-unit variances saw little difference in PQ between all of those models. Motion performance has also come up but nothing I would call dramatic. Like Zombie said, and I agree, unless you directly A/B it's VERY hard to make out much of a difference between generations as the differences have always been subtle. I think a lot of people who've made claims to dramatic differences in PQ just have a slightly less than forgiving memory on what they saw with the older models. I think the only thing noticeably different with this generation would be low APL scenes with the DI engaged as Zombie pointed out. I'm not trying to say you're wrong but it might just be that I also got lucky with units I've received and that's why I'm not seeing a huge difference moving up into each generation. I plan on picking up one of these current gen units pretty soon to see the DI for myself. In the mean time I'm having quite a bit of fun playing with some anamorphic lenses. It truly transforms the experience and I'm quite surprised at how well the UH480 keeps up with the ISCO IIIL

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post #909 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 06:05 PM
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my goal when looking at all these projectors is to eliminate as many variables as I can. For the way my brain works, it's the only way I can say 100% for sure that I am seeing X or Y difference.

The low APL performance is definitely better than it has ever been. Even the lower cost RS4910 is going to show a nice improvement in dark -> very dark scenes vs. previous models. In mixed / brighter scenes, it was more difficult to discern a difference.

I have a ton of contrast measurements from the RS57 using the T10. I'm curious to see how the 4910 matches up when all other conditions are the same.
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post #910 of 1937 Old 02-01-2014, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


I have a ton of contrast measurements from the RS57 using the T10. I'm curious to see how the 4910 matches up when all other conditions are the same.
I'd love to see the data comparing both of them at various aperture settings. I think it may surprise some folks....

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post #911 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

You must have gotten real lucky w/ your 55 because compared to mine it's a significant difference in my theater. Another 55 owner of AVF had a similar reaction (to mine). As well ViperAV thought the difference between his old x55==>x500 was stunning and a clear upgrade.

I agree with your last comment somewhat but when you know your gear well and replay known material, you can pretty much tell what you just bought (especially when your eyes open wider and you use comments like… "holy sh**!" eek.gif). wink.gif

That being said… maybe mine was a dog and I didn't know it. smile.gif

In all fairness though, your 55 had shown signs of the blurple problem, and to correct for this, you would have had to massively reduce your blue gain (whether on the Radiance or on the projector), resulting in a significant loss of contrast. Then combine this with the loss of lumens in the bulb itself....then even a brand new, never used before 55 would have been much better than your unit.

So you are not seeing the true delta between the 55 and the 57....but a badly performing 55 and a brand new 57. Although I am sure there is a visible difference between the two projectors even without the DI, the gain you are getting is significantly better.
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post #912 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 08:38 AM
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Good points Jon. I can't substantiate that of course but also can't argue it either. Given I trust Jason's eye I'll concede it's somewhere in the middle since (to Seegs point), I never A/B'd them to formulate this seeming over the top opinion (I know I sound like a fanboy at times, which I dislike, but also just trying to report what I see to help others make an informed decision). smile.gif

BTW - Where is Rich's report on the new PJ… for christ sakes it's been over 24 hours! biggrin.gif

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post #913 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

my goal when looking at all these projectors is to eliminate as many variables as I can. For the way my brain works, it's the only way I can say 100% for sure that I am seeing X or Y difference.

The low APL performance is definitely better than it has ever been. Even the lower cost RS4910 is going to show a nice improvement in dark -> very dark scenes vs. previous models. In mixed / brighter scenes, it was more difficult to discern a difference.

I have a ton of contrast measurements from the RS57 using the T10. I'm curious to see how the 4910 matches up when all other conditions are the same.

Where are those Jas… did you ever share (I looked a couple days after our offline convo but never caught anything you posted)? I would love to see them. smile.gif

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post #914 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Where are those Jas… did you ever share (I looked a couple days after our offline convo but never caught anything you posted)? I would love to see them. smile.gif

I didn't post them yet. I wanted to make sure they were in line with Cine4home, Kris and Darin's info. I just sent this T10 out a few weeks ago for a calibration so it should be as accurate as it can get.
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post #915 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Good points Jon. I can't substantiate that of course but also can't argue it either. Given I trust Jason's eye I'll concede it's somewhere in the middle since (to Seegs point), I never A/B'd them to formulate this seeming over the top opinion (I know I sound like a fanboy at times, which I dislike, but also just trying to report what I see to help others make an informed decision). smile.gif

BTW - Where is Rich's report on the new PJ… for christ sakes it's been over 24 hours! biggrin.gif

Not a fanboy. Just a very happy man with this new projector. Nothing wrong with that at all. To be a fanboy, you have to deliberately exaggerate the positives of your favourite brand AND deliberately exaggerate the negatives of another...particularly a product that you have never seen but pretend you have! biggrin.gif
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post #916 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 06:37 PM
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I've been entertaining guests from out of town so I've only had time for a couple sessions with my new RS57.

I haven't done anything near as objective a set up as Zombie or some other folks, so this is really FWIW. And, as usual for my first post about a new projector, I can't help but go on at length. Sorry.

Though there have been some nice raves about the new JVCs, my expectations have remained fairly low, just trying to be realistic. Although the rise in JVC's rated contrast from my RS55 to the new RS57
looked promising on paper, there has been enough technical discussion about this to really temper my expectations and enthusiasm for the new light engine, pinning my hopes more on the new Intelligent Lens Aperture for some improvement. And, even then, I've kept my expectations very low.

First I had my RS55 still set up, and I re-examined it for convergence, focus, etc. just as a baseline to compare the new RS57. I could not at this point set both up at the same time. Then I looked again through a bunch of my standard test scenes from Jurrassic Park, Alien, Avatar, Hellboy 2, some DVDs, etc. Scenes I've watched too many times to be healthy. smile.gif After that, I replaced my RS55 with the RS57. First thing I noticed: the sound. At first there was the nice, regular soft air swish sound I'm familiar with and I thought "hey, that's really quiet!" But then another sound kicked in: a sort of electronic hum or buzz. I was waiting for it to stop. Then I wondered if maybe the projector had been left in high bulb mode...or so I'd hoped. It never went away. I'm quite sensitive to noises and frankly, this added hum/buzz REALLY annoyed me. Because it was new, and tonal, I heard that damned noise through much of the material I viewed and had a hard time zoning it out (and being tonal, I could hear it added into the musical soundtracks in a discordant way...I guess that's the ex-musician in me). It was close to deal-breaker, frankly and I wondered if my unit was defective. But then remembered talk about E-shift 2 having this mechanical hum added, and someone else commented on this with his new JVC, so I'm inferring that is the source of the noise. I'll have to play with E-shift on/off to see. At the moment, this is my one major issue I think with my new projector.

Ok, that done with, on to checking convergence: darn! Not too good. Red seemed ok, but Blue was clearly off with a big blue fringe above the white lines. On my RS55 I remember one of the colors (blue?) was off and one full-pixel adjustment put it pretty much in line. Not this RS57. Moving the horizontal blue line on pixel click down simply moves the blue fringing on to the bottom side of the white line instead of the top, it doesn't align it. Further, most worrying to me, is the yellow fringing withing the white line. I'm not sure exactly what this signifies (Blue not being in place?) but I can't get rid of it. And further, I might be seeing this yellow on the actual image, as I noted some yellowish tone on a number of whiter scenes, and skies (clouds) etc. So, I'm not sure what to think yet.

Focus of pixels (non-Eshift-mode) seemed decent enough.

I followed Kris Deering's suggestion for a quick start-off picture mode:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486011/new-range-jvc-2014/3360#post_24226082

" user 1, standard color profile with all defaults for picture set to 0. Set the gamma to custom and 2.3 or 2.4 (depending on your preference for your room type). I then adjust the dark level in the gamma screen up to show digital 18 if you don't see it already (use basic pattern on the AVS 709 disc). I suggest Auto 2 for the dynamic iris and setting the manual iris to achieve your desired white level before changing to Auto 2. For grayscale I would suggest the 6500 preset. "

I actually couldn't find any way to adjust the gamma! (Where the hell are the controls?) So I just chose user one and I don't know what gamma that defaults to. I haven't got into calibrating yet, so I'm not too familiar with how to "show digital 18" etc.
But just to see how things looked anyway it was time to throw on some content. (Started with a 102" diag 16:9 screen image).

I left the MPC sliders in their default mode (though turned NR all the way down), made sure Clear Black was off, bulb low mode, and just to have a sense of how much brighter the RS57 was with the new bulb etc, I put it at the same manual lens app setting (-7). The first thing I noticed, to my surprise, was that with nothing on the screen the black levels looked clearly a bit lower! When some all black screens came on Jurassic park, the black levels looked definite darker than what I'm used to. This went against my expectation since the new projector's bulb would be brighter (including higher black levels). That was my experience when comparing my RS55 when it was new, against my older RS20 - the RS55, despite it's higher contrast rating, had higher black levels simply because it was a new, brighter bulb. So I was expecting the same in this case, not lower black levels (without using the ILA). I double-checked the Lens App wondering if I'd left it in an Auto mode, but nope it was in manual at -7, yet still looking like blacker blacks then I'm used to, and what I'd just seen on my RS55 Ok. Promising start even if I don't put too much stock into that first impression.

The opening of Jurassic park immediately looked different, both brighter and more punchy, but also higher contrast and deeper looking black levels. Not by tons, but it seemed distinct. And that was the impression I had going through all the scenes.
The image just looked more dynamic, mostly in scenes with black in them, and darker scenes. My go-to scene of the actors walking around holding flashlights looked fantastic, with the flashlight beams looking super bright, but with the black levels throughout looking actually a bit deeper at the same time. Though, of all the titles I watched, JP, though it looked different, showed the least obvious changes from my RS55.

What about the Intelligent Lens Aperture? Time to try it. I put on the recommended Auto 2. I experimented with setting the aperture at -7 and -9. Good news: The ILA struck me as doing it's work invisibly. Bad news: The ILA struck me as working invisibly. As in: I couldn't see what it was adding! It really took a lot of searching for the lowest APL scenes I could find to actually notice the black levels go lower! Certainly during certain black out scenes (including the opening credits) I could see the lens app close down more making it darker than I've ever seen in my home theater, which was neat. But that to me is a side benefit since I want actual on-screen content to show improvement, not non-images.
I saw the ILA do some nice things here and there, but I was mildly deflated at first, even though overall JP looked better than I've seen. (And that included some bright scenes, like when they first begin the tour in the daytime, the automated cars start moving, and you view the characters through the car windows which have reflections of sun and plants moving past. Those are the type of shots that can look mediocre on a display that doesn't have good ANSI-type contrast (or whatever) but start to come alive with a more dynamic projector. Those shots looked more vibrant than I remember seeing before on my screen, so that was great.

It was really when I put on some other movies that things seemed to kick into higher gear. I put on Alien and tried to match the brightness I saw on my RS55 (no meter, so not scientific). THAT was amazing! First, those opening low APL scenes of the credits forming against space, just how DARK the planet and space looked, and the brighter stars against that black, was fantastic. The next shots of the Nostromo ship, dimply lit against space, were ones I figured would show the advantage of a DI and, yup, there it was. Space was blacker, stars brighter and more varied, the ship definitely more contrasted against space, than I'd just seen on the RS55. Throughout Alien I kept going "wow...WOW..." especially any scenes requiring strong constrast, low APL scenes, and just the contrast in general. It just looked incredible. I guess it could be a combination of a new bulb, whatever was happening in the picture mode I'd chosen, and whatever contributions were being made by the new ILA and contrast of the projector, but I was getting some of those elements that impressed me so much when I viewed these scenes on the Sony VW1000 projector: that "pop" of brilliant lights of the Nostromo controls against deep black backgrounds.
THAT's more like it, THAT is what I was craving in terms of upgrading the image I'd been watching.

When I put on the first chase scene in Casino Royale I was like "holy sh#t! It was so brilliant and dynamic it blew me away. I had the image at 105" wide and the IRIS down to -10 I believe (or -12). Is this all due to simply a new bulb? Certainly could be I suppose. Or was I seeing some other elements of contrast added by the new projector? I can't say at this point: but whatever it is, the end result was a picture that had the type of "pop" I sometimes have envied from DLPs and just the type of image I might have expected if I'd replaced my RS55 with the Sony VW500ES. That's not to say that the image actually DOES look like the Sony's (which obviously would, at the very least, be capable of being even brighter). What I'm saying is that, lacking an actual side-by-side to show the Sony's superiorities, the brilliant Casino Royale images I was seeing on screen were just the type of pinch-myself-inducing images that I'd have thought I needed the Sony to bring to my system.

Then I tried the Clear Black feature. You know what? From what I've seen so far now I LOVE this new processing! I only tried it on "low" for actual moving images, but just like Kevin reported, I find it adds a noticeable crispness and a bit more vividness across the board, but not "too much." Casino Royale just continued to blow me away, how detailed and vivid the image looked, and now deep and anchored the black levels and dark scenes appeared. (ILA on auto 2 throughought).

Prometheus: again...holy cow! Prometheus was a movie that, even from it's initial trailers before it hit the movie theaters, I thought "this is going to look amazing on the JVC projectors, so many super dark scenes, brilliantly lit helmets and instruments against dark backgrounds, etc). The thing is once I finally got the Prometheus Blu-Ray on my RS55 it *did* look really excellent. But at the same time instead of perfection I would also think "we still have quite a ways to go black-level wise and contrast-wise for projection." But Prometheus on this RS57 actually seemed to fulfill the promise of this movie, the way I thought it could look. The way those space-ship shots looked, much of the ship low lit against space, with brilliant spot lights here and there, and the blazing rockets, it was rendered with such contrast and authority in the RS57 I just felt like "yeahhhh...I'm home! We are just about there!" Same thing throughought as Casino Royale, My black-velvet pit always shows projected black to be lighter gray, but I've never seen the black areas look like this in my set up. Where I'm not looking from the pitch black velvet surrounding to the projected black on screen and thinking "oh well" but actually thinking "damn, those blacks look great!"

Wherever it's coming from, just the ILA in action itself, or if there is also some additional contrast I'm getting from this machine, there is a sense of solidity and consistence, of realism, that I'm getting in terms of contrast/black levels, that I don't remember experiencing before. It makes me feel I could be satisfied with this, finally, for a while. (Yeah..right! Until next year).

Oblivion looked amazing too - the combination of image brightness, contrast, MPC settings and Clear Black showed a punchier, more detailed looking image, for sure, than that movies has ever looked on my screen. More in line with the type of improvements I would have expected if I'd bought the Sony VW500ES. And BladeRunner...mamma mia! Again, I'm really happy to find that the Clear Black feature is actually useful to me. From my brief exposure to it, I think I actually like aspects of it a bit better than my Darbee (as I tend to notice the "Darbee look" that has been added on top of images, I felt that less so with the Clear Black).

I watched some of this year's Grammys and, wow, I thought they looked incredible contrast-wise on my RS55 - on the RS57 concert lights were BLAZING through the blackness of the auditorium! I tried the new CMD setting on "low" and it seemed to work perfectly, giving beautifully smooth motion without any noticeable artifacts - e.g. to Pink's very acrobatic spinning performance above the crowd. Some shots were amazingly close to "being there" in terms of the detail and aliveness of the image. The same goes for the Stevie Wonder concert on Blu-Ray that I often use as a test. It just reached a new level of realism in terms of the performers and lights against the deep dark backgrounds.

Ok, so...it's the honeymoon phase I know. But not all is rosy, as I've already mentioned at the beginning. Other issues I've noted so far:
The ILA, as others have noted, does most of it's work invisibly, but is occasionally noticeable. The BladeRunner credits against the black background started off looking incredible. But then I saw the aperture/gamma adjust itself on a few of the credits. I also noticed these adjustments here and there in movie content. And sometimes certain scenes seemed to actually induce an almost "flicker" in the seen, as if the ILA couldn't figure out what position to adopt. Thus far, with the content I've watched, I'm finding the pros outweigh the cons with the ILA. I guess we'll all see how that goes as we spend more time with these machines.

More troubling: Sometimes the image seemed to go blurry! I think it was in Blade Runner where I thought my vision was going blurry, but it was the faces on screen. And then I saw it happen on Start Trek (2009 movie) as well, at the end when the two Spocks are talking. A shot of two of Nimoy's face looked totally blurry. And this seemed to happen occasionally in some of the other movies too. I'm still not sure what was going on - was it possible these were blurry shots I'd never noticed before? Maybe. But the impression I had was that some sort of processing in the projector was going wrong, being freaked out or whatever, and some sort of smoothing was being applied way too much, making a face a blurry mess. Again, it has me wondering if the projector is defective. Has anyone else noticed this happening? (I haven't spent time trying to diagnose it yet, switching the various processing parameters off and on).

Anyway, that's the state of my impressions after a few long sessions throwing on tons of different movies. Not all is perfect - I'm not sure what to think yet about the convergence, the buzzing, and the blurriness issues. And I am not making any technical case for what I perceive - all I can report are my impressions at this point, and the RS57 is striking me as just the type of upgrade I would have hoped for, and actually ticking off lots of the boxes I wanted the Sony to tick off, so at this
point it's feeling like I made the right choice. (Well...if I hadn't spent a ton more on calibration equipment and a Lumagen, and compared ONLY the prices of the two projectors, for me it would feel even more like the right choice, this year, to
have gotten the new JVC).

Over 'n out.
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post #917 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 07:10 PM
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Thanks for the detailed impressions Rich!

I believe the "blurry" closeup of Spock you mentioned in Star Trek 2009 is in the source. I noticed the same thing on both my JVC RS45 I had as well as the Sony HW50 I have now even with RC on.
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post #918 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 07:22 PM
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I see a number of movies where the close-ups sometimes tend to be soft to the rest of the movie. Maybe the actors ask for the close-up to be softer, HD certainly shows all the flaws on an actors face.

Rich I told you CMD was an improvement over earlier versions, I hardly ever notice an artefact with it engaged in this years models.
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post #919 of 1937 Old 02-02-2014, 10:22 PM
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"Ok, that done with, on to checking convergence: darn! Not too good. Red seemed ok, but Blue was clearly off with a big blue fringe above the white lines. On my RS55 I remember one of the colors (blue?) was off and one full-pixel adjustment put it pretty much in line. Not this RS57. Moving the horizontal blue line on pixel click down simply moves the blue fringing on to the bottom side of the white line instead of the top, it doesn't align it. Further, most worrying to me, is the yellow fringing withing the white line. I'm not sure exactly what this signifies (Blue not being in place?) but I can't get rid of it. And further, I might be seeing this yellow on the actual image, as I noted some yellowish tone on a number of whiter scenes, and skies (clouds) etc. So, I'm not sure what to think yet."

I thought you can adjust the convergence in one quarter or one half increments on the RS 57 or is that not correct ?
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post #920 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JOE-C View Post

"Ok, that done with, on to checking convergence: darn! Not too good. Red seemed ok, but Blue was clearly off with a big blue fringe above the white lines. On my RS55 I remember one of the colors (blue?) was off and one full-pixel adjustment put it pretty much in line. Not this RS57. Moving the horizontal blue line on pixel click down simply moves the blue fringing on to the bottom side of the white line instead of the top, it doesn't align it. Further, most worrying to me, is the yellow fringing withing the white line. I'm not sure exactly what this signifies (Blue not being in place?) but I can't get rid of it. And further, I might be seeing this yellow on the actual image, as I noted some yellowish tone on a number of whiter scenes, and skies (clouds) etc. So, I'm not sure what to think yet."

I thought you can adjust the convergence in one quarter or one half increments on the RS 57 or is that not correct ?

Yes but this is process trickery and although you can make the convergence look perfect, using partial pixel increments can reduce the resolution of the image
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post #921 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I've been entertaining guests from out of town so I've only had time for a couple sessions with my new RS57.

Anyway, that's the state of my impressions after a few long sessions throwing on tons of different movies. Not all is perfect - I'm not sure what to think yet about the convergence, the buzzing, and the blurriness issues. And I am not making any technical case for what I perceive - all I can report are my impressions at this point, and the RS57 is striking me as just the type of upgrade I would have hoped for, and actually ticking off lots of the boxes I wanted the Sony to tick off, so at this
point it's feeling like I made the right choice. (Well...if I hadn't spent a ton more on calibration equipment and a Lumagen, and compared ONLY the prices of the two projectors, for me it would feel even more like the right choice, this year, to
have gotten the new JVC).

Over 'n out.

In the early releases of the RS56,RS66 etc last year, there was complain of a high pitched whine from the e-shift mechanism which some found very distracting. My RS56 was made in March last year, and doesn't have the whine, but does have the slight buzzing. I suspect they changed something since the first batches but the mechanism is still not without noise. Only I notice it though as the wife or friends don't seem to know what I am talking about when I try and demonstrate it going on and off!

Don't worry about blue misconvergence as it has no real effect on the perceived sharpness or resolution of the image. What matters is red/green alignment and if that is good then don't worry about it. From your description it sounds like blue is half a pixel off. I have noticed that more people note blue misconvergence than any other colour and it also seems to be the one that moves the most when the projector is upside down or warming up.

I am pleased you are happy for the mostpart. I think that the blurriness is probably on the movie and you just didn't notice it before.

As I have said previously it is incredibly hard to compare two projectors where one has aged and one hasn't. I remember when I got my RS56 the first comments I had coming from the RS55 was that the blacks are blacker and the whites are whiter! Naturally that comes from having more contrast as my RS56 measures more like an RS66 (just a bit of luck)...the fact the bulb was brighter....and the fact also that the RS56 didn't have light corners which the RS55 did. Also of course as the bulb dims, you end up losing more and more contrast calibrating to offset the loss in red. I am 300 hours in and still not measuring a light loss, calibration holding steady, and still find myself amazed nearly everytime I watch it.

It looks like you found some good titles to test the DI. I would be very interested in more comparisons where you try the same scene with and without DI and evaluate how much it added to the experience.
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post #922 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 01:55 AM
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Watched some more stuff on my new 700. Various 3D clips, some "Moulin Rouge". I had Cinema on for this and quickly noticed unnatural grain und unfilmlike movement. I don't understand why JVC thinks a preset for cinema colour emulation should use motion flow technology, edge smoothing and DNR. Yuck. Once it was turned off things were great. I like the strong colours that leave skin tones alone. I'm looking forward to calibrating this with a sensor for perfect grayscale and gamma while leaving the colour alone.
3D is very nice on this projector. I wonder what the crosstalk cancellation does. Looks like it simply changes brightness. Is there more to it? I have it at max brightness since I need all the light I can get on my 3.5m wide screen. Can't say that I see lots of ghosting because of that. There is some at times but it's quite limited. The 3D looks far better than in most cinemas. Dark movies are not too dark with the new lamp. I hope it stays that way for many hundred hours. :-)
The dynamic iris works great except for credits. Here it's obvious that the algorithm looks at how much white/average APL there is and when a threshold is passed the iris opens up. It might be more sophisticated than that in general but with credits it amounts to this behaviour without paying attention to continuity within a 'shot'.
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post #923 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Watched some more stuff on my new 700. Various 3D clips, some "Moulin Rouge". I had Cinema on for this and quickly noticed unnatural grain und unfilmlike movement. I don't understand why JVC thinks a preset for cinema colour emulation should use motion flow technology, edge smoothing and DNR. Yuck. Once it was turned off things were great. I like the strong colours that leave skin tones alone. I'm looking forward to calibrating this with a sensor for perfect grayscale and gamma while leaving the colour alone.
3D is very nice on this projector. I wonder what the crosstalk cancellation does. Looks like it simply changes brightness. Is there more to it? I have it at max brightness since I need all the light I can get on my 3.5m wide screen. Can't say that I see lots of ghosting because of that. There is some at times but it's quite limited. The 3D looks far better than in most cinemas. Dark movies are not too dark with the new lamp. I hope it stays that way for many hundred hours. :-)
The dynamic iris works great except for credits. Here it's obvious that the algorithm looks at how much white/average APL there is and when a threshold is passed the iris opens up. It might be more sophisticated than that in general but with credits it amounts to this behaviour without paying attention to continuity within a 'shot'.

I haven't seen the new 3D options as I don't have the new generation of projector, but you reminded me of something that cine4home keeps pointing out with the upper models. They like very much the Cinema preset on the upper JVCs which mimic the DCI colourspace using the snap-in filter. Even though its not as conformant to standards as the rec.709 Standard option of course, cine4home seem to like how it selectively adapts colours near the rec.709 boundaries while maintaining accurate flesh tones and other more neutral colours. I watched Trance (Danny Boyle film) yesterday, and just for kicks watched it in Cinema mode and re-watched a couple of scenes in rec.709, and I was pretty impressed. Being a trance inducing movie in itself with surreal scenes and a dreamlike nature, the extra dynamics in the colours were very welcome.....but it never destroyed those colours that clearly should be untouched.


The crosstalk cancellation actually changes the contrast not the brightness. As the bulb is a constant level and the aperture doesn't move, the black level remains constant, but the white level changes, therefore affecting contrast. It has been noticed that lowering contrast reduces crosstalk, but the difference is quite subtle and many have found this parameter has little overall effect. Of course the dimmer the image, the harder it is to see crosstalk anyway! Some have found it useful to crank it up to get more brightness for 3D on larger screens. I find +7 or +8 worsens crosstalk and -7 or -8 improves it, with all other numbers having little effect on it.
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post #924 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

In the early releases of the RS56,RS66 etc last year, there was complain of a high pitched whine from the e-shift mechanism which some found very distracting. My RS56 was made in March last year, and doesn't have the whine, but does have the slight buzzing. I suspect they changed something since the first batches but the mechanism is still not without noise. Only I notice it though as the wife or friends don't seem to know what I am talking about when I try and demonstrate it going on and off!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure what I hear is the E-shift mechanism, from your description. When I switch sources and it takes a while for handshaking (and this projector certainly does take longer for handshaking, and actually misses the beginning of many films!) it sounds like the E-shift mechanism goes from off to on, I hear a sort of mechanical buzz sound almost like something is sliding into place for when the picture comes back on.
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Don't worry about blue misconvergence as it has no real effect on the perceived sharpness or resolution of the image. What matters is red/green alignment and if that is good then don't worry about it. From your description it sounds like blue is half a pixel off. I have noticed that more people note blue misconvergence than any other colour and it also seems to be the one that moves the most when the projector is upside down or warming up.

Thank you. I know to not worry too much about blue being off. My main worry is the slight yellow fringing I see inside the white convergence lines. I'm forgetting my color theory I guess, but I'm not sure what that means (i.e. which color is misconverged that causes the yellow fringing). Does it sound possible that this would manifest as a yellowish cast on large white areas in an image, e.g. clouds? Because that's what I think I'm seeing. Though, the projector also hasn't been calibrated. (And if the projector did have a yellowish cast due to misconvergence, could that be calibrated away? I'm thinking of trying the sub-pixel adjustments at some point, even knowing about the possible resolution loss, just to see).
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As I have said previously it is incredibly hard to compare two projectors where one has aged and one hasn't.

Yes, there are so many parameters involved (including as you know, even if you level match the brightness perfectly between the new and old bulb projector, you will have dialed down the iris on the new bulb projector, giving it more contrast).
That's why I only write on a "FWIW" basis. All I can say is that over and over scenes I've watched a billion times on all my projectors have never looked quite like this. I watched a bunch of 2001 last night (among many others) and that was another title I've never been totally satisfied with either with my RS20 or RS55, when they were new, old or whatever. I always noted black levels needed to be deeper. And especially you have all these scenes which start of with black space, but then a bright object, planet or spaceship, will slowly creep into the frame. Even though my room is a black velvet pit (passes all the flashlight tests) the "black" of space always seemed to lighten, the more of the planet or spaceship entered the shot. I'm just used to being kind of disappointed in many images of 2001. But last night I couldn't believe it as shot after shot didn't do this. I've never seen the space look so black and *remain* looking so dark even as brighter objects take up more of the frame. This contrast had amazing effects throughout the whole movie in terms of realism, and the way the contrast carved out the spacial relationships on screen - rather than the screen simply populated by 3 bright objects against black - a foreground planet, spaceship behind it, planet behind the spaceship - there was actually the obvious 3D-like sense of space between them. Never seen that before, at least to such a degree. And the planets, such as those that take up parts of the screen at the first space shuttle docking scene, have always looked like flat paintings. Last night for the first time they all actually looked *round* which I was never even expecting. And I've NEVER seen the sense of depth before, for the distant spaceship flying-over the moon to the monolith shots, where a spaceship passes by and zooms off into the distance. So...lots of fun!

Quote:
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It looks like you found some good titles to test the DI. I would be very interested in more comparisons where you try the same scene with and without DI and evaluate how much it added to the experience.

Yes, unfortunately though I'm revealing in the contrast/black levels, I'm also noticing more and more artifacts from the ILA, including what seems to be a flickering effect. For instance, in 2001 there's the scene on the moon where the group of astronauts go to look at the monolith that has been dug up. You see the earth on the horizon in the distance. It was flickering lightly, looking much like film flicker. I'd never seen that before on that shot and so I checked it with the ILA on and off.
It did not flicker with the ILA turned off. I can also see similar brightness pumping in various other scenes. So, all is far from perfect so far with the ILA. However, I'm still at the point of "love enough of what I see to put up with it."

Time to try some 3D...
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post #925 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 06:06 AM
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One other thing with this RS57 projector: MOTION.

Not a bad thing, but a very good thing. I'm totally surprised that I keep noticing how great the motion performance seems to be on the RS57. I had some weird issue when switching from my old RS20 to the RS55 where it seemed like I was more cognizant of motion blur with the newer projector...for whatever reason, even though I got used to it in the end. (Sample and hold effect?). I just expected no change with the RS57. But over and over I kept noticing how smooth the image looked with camera motions. To the point I started checking to see if the CMD setting was on. I wasn't 100 percent sure I was really seeing better motion until I watched some of my motion torture test scenes from 2001. The movements of the space ships have always brought out judder or blur on my RS20 and RS55 projectors. But last night they were so clean!

There is one shot especially, a shot of the shuttle flying over the moon's surface and it is just a teeny object flying from right to left in the distance. On both my RS20 and RS55 that tiny spaceship was only ever rendered as an indistinct blob - apparently it as moving just a bit too fast for the projector and was so small, almost all detail was removed. But on the RS57 it was actually distinct and clear (not totally clear, but definitely more defined). So, another apparent bonus.
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post #926 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

One other thing with this RS57 projector: MOTION.

Not a bad thing, but a very good thing. I'm totally surprised that I keep noticing how great the motion performance seems to be on the RS57. I had some weird issue when switching from my old RS20 to the RS55 where it seemed like I was more cognizant of motion blur with the newer projector...for whatever reason, even though I got used to it in the end. (Sample and hold effect?). I just expected no change with the RS57. But over and over I kept noticing how smooth the image looked with camera motions. To the point I started checking to see if the CMD setting was on. I wasn't 100 percent sure I was really seeing better motion until I watched some of my motion torture test scenes from 2001. The movements of the space ships have always brought out judder or blur on my RS20 and RS55 projectors. But last night they were so clean!

There is one shot especially, a shot of the shuttle flying over the moon's surface and it is just a teeny object flying from right to left in the distance. On both my RS20 and RS55 that tiny spaceship was only ever rendered as an indistinct blob - apparently it as moving just a bit too fast for the projector and was so small, almost all detail was removed. But on the RS57 it was actually distinct and clear (not totally clear, but definitely more defined). So, another apparent bonus.

Is that with or without CMD enabled?
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post #927 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 07:07 AM
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I've never seen the space look so black and *remain* looking so dark even as brighter objects take up more of the frame.

Do you have any thoughts as to how that is achieved? We know that ANSI contrast is not improved. But native contrast certainly is. However, I have noticed, that you can trick the eyes with a DI (often mentioned in relation to the Sony DI), that by opening the aperture up such that the bright objects force the pupils in your eyes to dilate, the blacks appear blacker even though they are not. This is why a DI is so powerful with dark movies like the ones you have been trying. You may lose some shadow detail through this trick, but that can also be remedied depending on how clever the gamma compensation algorithms are.
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post #928 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 07:16 AM
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Thanks for your first impressions Rich. I just received my X700 on Saturday and will post my impressions after a little more testing. It's a really amazing piece of kit though.
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First I had my RS55 still set up, and I re-examined it for convergence, focus, etc. just as a baseline to compare the new RS57. I could not at this point set both up at the same time. Then I looked again through a bunch of my standard test scenes from Jurrassic Park, Alien, Avatar, Hellboy 2, some DVDs, etc. Scenes I've watched too many times to be healthy. smile.gif After that, I replaced my RS55 with the RS57. First thing I noticed: the sound. At first there was the nice, regular soft air swish sound I'm familiar with and I thought "hey, that's really quiet!" But then another sound kicked in: a sort of electronic hum or buzz. I was waiting for it to stop. Then I wondered if maybe the projector had been left in high bulb mode...or so I'd hoped. It never went away. I'm quite sensitive to noises and frankly, this added hum/buzz REALLY annoyed me. Because it was new, and tonal, I heard that damned noise through much of the material I viewed and had a hard time zoning it out (and being tonal, I could hear it added into the musical soundtracks in a discordant way...I guess that's the ex-musician in me). It was close to deal-breaker, frankly and I wondered if my unit was defective. But then remembered talk about E-shift 2 having this mechanical hum added, and someone else commented on this with his new JVC, so I'm inferring that is the source of the noise. I'll have to play with E-shift on/off to see. At the moment, this is my one major issue I think with my new projector.

I have the X700 and in regards to fan noise it's as quiet as my Sony HW55 was in low and high lamp modes. I was pleasantly surprised at how unobtrusive it is sitting 1-2' away from my head. Note: I have e-Shift 3 engaged at all times.
Quote:
Ok, that done with, on to checking convergence: darn! Not too good. Red seemed ok, but Blue was clearly off with a big blue fringe above the white lines. On my RS55 I remember one of the colors (blue?) was off and one full-pixel adjustment put it pretty much in line. Not this RS57. Moving the horizontal blue line on pixel click down simply moves the blue fringing on to the bottom side of the white line instead of the top, it doesn't align it. Further, most worrying to me, is the yellow fringing withing the white line. I'm not sure exactly what this signifies (Blue not being in place?) but I can't get rid of it. And further, I might be seeing this yellow on the actual image, as I noted some yellowish tone on a number of whiter scenes, and skies (clouds) etc. So, I'm not sure what to think yet.

Maybe your unit was not handled with proper care during the shipping process. My convergence is excellent and definitely a bit better than it was on my Sony HW55.
Quote:
More troubling: Sometimes the image seemed to go blurry! I think it was in Blade Runner where I thought my vision was going blurry, but it was the faces on screen. And then I saw it happen on Start Trek (2009 movie) as well, at the end when the two Spocks are talking. A shot of two of Nimoy's face looked totally blurry. And this seemed to happen occasionally in some of the other movies too. I'm still not sure what was going on - was it possible these were blurry shots I'd never noticed before? Maybe. But the impression I had was that some sort of processing in the projector was going wrong, being freaked out or whatever, and some sort of smoothing was being applied way too much, making a face a blurry mess. Again, it has me wondering if the projector is defective. Has anyone else noticed this happening? (I haven't spent time trying to diagnose it yet, switching the various processing parameters off and on).

Funny you mention this as it's something I actually noticed myself last night while watching Star Trek (2009). I haven't noticed it before, or on other content, so maybe that's just the way it was filmed (lots of blurring, lens flare, etc. that JJ Abrams is known for implementing into his films). I will do some more testing to see if this is happening with other source material. NOTE: previously I have only watched this film on a 55" LED/LCD HDTV from 12' away, so I may not have noticed the blurriness due to the screen size/viewing distance ratio.
Quote:
Anyway, that's the state of my impressions after a few long sessions throwing on tons of different movies. Not all is perfect - I'm not sure what to think yet about the convergence, the buzzing, and the blurriness issues. And I am not making any technical case for what I perceive - all I can report are my impressions at this point, and the RS57 is striking me as just the type of upgrade I would have hoped for, and actually ticking off lots of the boxes I wanted the Sony to tick off, so at this
point it's feeling like I made the right choice. (Well...if I hadn't spent a ton more on calibration equipment and a Lumagen, and compared ONLY the prices of the two projectors, for me it would feel even more like the right choice, this year, to
have gotten the new JVC).

Overall, it seems like your first impression was a positive one. I hope you can resolve your convergence issue and maybe the fan will break in over time and become less noisy on your sample.

Overall, I'm totally blown away at the PQ this beast provides. It is more similar than different to my Sony HW55 in mid-to-high APL content, albeit contrast is a bit better on the JVC and fades to black are RIDICULOUS (my room pretty much disappears). But during mid-low APL content the Sony HW55 can't hold a candle to my X700. The X700 looks 3D without the glasses. It's really incredible! I'm truly glad I made the switch. smile.gif
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post #929 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 07:40 AM
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My x700 review unit is due in this week. I have had the chance to play with a few of this year's line but I'm surprised that you said the X700 you received is as quiet as the HW55 for high lamp. One of the most impressive things about the Sonys for me is their lamp modes and how quiet they are. With the last VW95 I reviewed it was nearly inaudible in high lamp whereas my X75R sounds like a turboprop. I'll definitely have to check this out when the X700 comes in. I think it would be a big plus to be able to use high lamp on this year's model as it would allow a more aggressive iris position to start with before engaging the dynamic iris. This would help cut down on artifacts from the muliplier. Guess we'll see.

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post #930 of 1937 Old 02-03-2014, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

One other thing with this RS57 projector: MOTION.
Not a bad thing, but a very good thing. I'm totally surprised that I keep noticing how great the motion performance seems to be on the RS57. I had some weird issue when switching from my old RS20 to the RS55 where it seemed like I was more cognizant of motion blur with the newer projector...for whatever reason, even though I got used to it in the end. (Sample and hold effect?). I just expected no change with the RS57. But over and over I kept noticing how smooth the image looked with camera motions. To the point I started checking to see if the CMD setting was on. I wasn't 100 percent sure I was really seeing better motion until I watched some of my motion torture test scenes from 2001. The movements of the space ships have always brought out judder or blur on my RS20 and RS55 projectors. But last night they were so clean!
There is one shot especially, a shot of the shuttle flying over the moon's surface and it is just a teeny object flying from right to left in the distance. On both my RS20 and RS55 that tiny spaceship was only ever rendered as an indistinct blob - apparently it as moving just a bit too fast for the projector and was so small, almost all detail was removed. But on the RS57 it was actually distinct and clear (not totally clear, but definitely more defined). So, another apparent bonus.
Concerning motion the RS20 had a serious bug that posterized +-uniform colour patches above some motion threshold (usually skin). Later generations no longer have this bug. It was the only thing I really disliked about the RS20.
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