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post #271 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Do don't smile.gif

Some HDMI 1.4 receivers have 4K passthrough for unprotected 4K content, but you will have to throw them away as soon as HDCP 2.2 protected content is available, or you'll have to use a source with dual HDMI out, one for the AVR for sound and one direct to the display for video, like some HDMI 1.4 do for HDMI 1.3 AVR which can't passthrough 3D.
Buying an AVR today is madness unless you know it won't be in the video path.
This applies to switches, VPs, etc of course. The whole video chain will have to support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 or 4K protected content will not play.

And I just bought my AVR... in fact, bought 2 of them..

I guess we're caught in the middle of the 4K madness.

I am going to venture another out of this world prediction. Since the trend is now towards downloading / streaming content, the upgrade path may be shortened.. ie, we might see 8K being rolled out just when 4K's standards are finalized... so, we might be in for a long ride of having to change equipments...
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post #272 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I tried to make sense of it redface.gif
Thanks for correcting me.

So you'e saying the HDMI chips in the 500/600/1100ES are really "hybrid" HDMI 1.4 chips that support enough bandwidth for some 4k content (at the specific framerate and color bit you stated)?

Not me, people much more qualified smile.gif. You need to read this by Ron Jones about HDMI 2.0, and the 500ES analysis by Cine4home which shows that the HDMI chipset in the 500ES is an HDMI 1.4 one (like in the JVCs) but unlike the JVCs they have an another unknown chipset which gives them HDCP 2.2 support.

To clarify, the HDMI limitation is a quality (bandwidth) limitation, while the HDCP limitation is a quantity limitation (protected 4K content like commercial movies in a Sony server or Bluray 4K requires HDCP 2.2 or won't play).
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post #273 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Not a sure thing, yes, but closer to the truth than the opposite view of 'its not gonna happen'...

2 years. And I said below 5K (possibly even 4K). And yes, I am confident in my prediction.. although there are indeed no such things as a 'sure bet'... I am not a betting man myself, but I have seen too many times people under-estimating how technology evolves and are so confident that 'such and such will never happen', and then 'bang' it does.. over and over...

I am thinking back to when 1080P came out. At first it was very expensive and then prices dropped. At one point, (market flooded with cheap 1080 machines) you could not sell a high end 720 machine, because people were buying cheap 1080 machines, even though the high end 720 machines threw a better image than the cheap 1080 machines. This was because the lens and processing in the high end machines were much better than what you found in the cheap 1080 machines, but the allurer of 1080 was so strong that people thought it had to be better. At that time you could pick up a really nice 720 machine for pennies on the dollar. I fully expect history to repeat it's self.
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post #274 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by nikos77 View Post

Those of you that have bought the new 4k capable SONY projectors.

I am honestly wondering how long do you guestimate that you'll keep your projector for?

How about your previous projector?

I can't afford what you can so I may sound like sour grapes.... but IMHO (although speaking after not seeing any 4k player, material info at CES) I believe the smartest "investment" might be/(have been) to buy a cheaper but equally capable 1080p projector and truly invest for profit the remaining funds....or upgrade another piece of the equation and buy 2 years from now....

obviously to each his own and the same argument could have been made by others for me by early adopting the new water cooled BMW R 1200GS.... instead of purchasing the refined and matured previous design and possibly collectible model...

I just purchased a Stewart CIMA and in the 2014 calendar year I'll buy a projector... have to build piece by piece....

One thing is for sure... life is shorter than you think....so enjoy it as much as you can however you can....

ill keep mine as long as it still puts a smile on my face. And every time I fire it up, you should see me grin.. Personally, I look at any technology purchase through "one lens" how long will it keep me smiling and that's the return I expect from the investment I make.

Last year had a JVC RS65, Sony 95ES and a Mit HC5 (lost money on all 3) but I enjoyed them while I had them. And agreed life is way too short..
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post #275 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Not me, people much more qualified smile.gif. You need to read this by Ron Jones about HDMI 2.0, and the 500ES analysis by Cine4home which shows that the HDMI chipset in the 500ES is an HDMI 1.4 one (like in the JVCs) but unlike the JVCs they have an another unknown chipset which gives them HDCP 2.2 support.

To clarify, the HDMI limitation is a quality (bandwidth) limitation, while the HDCP limitation is a quantity limitation (protected 4K content like commercial movies in a Sony server or Bluray 4K requires HDCP 2.2 or won't play).

Now I am even MORE confused.

Ron states that "current" HDMI 2.0 chipsets (besides Panasonic) support only 10.2Gbps (the same as HDMI 1.4) but they are still HDMI 2.0 chipsets, just not fully spec'd (so to say). But then you see that the chipset for HDMI input 1 on the 500ES is in-fact an HDMI 1.4 chip (as shown in the Cine4home review). BUT THEN you also see a second chipset for the HDMI 2 input which is unlabeled/unknown and the review states is most likely HDMI/HDCP involved. What if this second chip is Son'y way of doing a custom HDMI 2.0 chipset like Panasonic?

How does HDMI get so muddy? Or rather, WHY? Jeez. I have no clue anymore. Stop confusing me confused.gif lol
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post #276 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I am thinking back to when 1080P came out. At first it was very expensive and then prices dropped. At one point, (market flooded with cheap 1080 machines) you could not sell a high end 720 machine, because people were buying cheap 1080 machines, even though the high end 720 machines threw a better image than the cheap 1080 machines. This was because the lens and processing in the high end machines were much better than what you found in the cheap 1080 machines, but the allurer of 1080 was so strong that people thought it had to be better. At that time you could pick up a really nice 720 machine for pennies on the dollar. I fully expect history to repeat it's self.

This is exactly what I am thinking. Take cheap 4k tvs coming out of china n suddenly the likes of sony, samsung n lg had to drastically reduce their prices. It won't be long before the likes of benq epson etc all xome up with their 4k projectors and the sony will have to sell cheaper.
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post #277 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

This is exactly what I am thinking. Take cheap 4k tvs coming out of china n suddenly the likes of sony, samsung n lg had to drastically reduce their prices. It won't be long before the likes of benq epson etc all xome up with their 4k projectors and the sony will have to sell cheaper.

The only argument against that is current trends with 1080p pojectors. Epson, Benq, etc HAVE come out with cheap, affordable, good quality projectors and flooded the market over the last few years.....but Sony only has 1 projector under $4k and JVC's closest starts at $5k. Why? Because they offer that little bit extra performance that people will pay for.

Also, as I was trying to say before, comparing the trends of the TV market (which has a huge buyer's base) to the projector market (which is a small niche of it's own outside of this hobby) isn't accurate. The "trends" may be the same (flooding the market causes price drops of the competition, etc) but not nearly on the same magnitude as TV's. People buying a TV expect it to be cheap and competitive to all other brands. People entering the projector market are less prone to such thoughts/expectations (typically).
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post #278 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Now I am even MORE confused.

Ron states that "current" HDMI 2.0 chipsets (besides Panasonic) support only 10.2Gbps (the same as HDMI 1.4) but they are still HDMI 2.0 chipsets, just not fully spec'd (so to say). But then you see that the chipset for HDMI input 1 on the 500ES is in-fact an HDMI 1.4 chip (as shown in the Cine4home review). BUT THEN you also see a second chipset for the HDMI 2 input which is unlabeled/unknown and the review states is most likely HDMI/HDCP involved. What if this second chip is Son'y way of doing a custom HDMI 2.0 chipset like Panasonic?

How does HDMI get so muddy? Or rather, WHY? Jeez. I have no clue anymore. Stop confusing me confused.gif lol

Yes it is the second chip, but that chip is said to not be full HDMI 2.0. It has a limit of 10.2Gbps where as full 2.0 is 18Gbps.

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post #279 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

JVC's closest starts at $5k.


Didn't JVC retain the RS46/X35 in their lineup this year? If so, JVCs cheapest would be $3,500 MSRP.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #280 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Didn't JVC retain the RS46/X35 in their lineup this year? If so, JVCs cheapest would be $3,500 MSRP.

Sorry, should clarify: JVC's newest release is $5000 for the cheapest model.
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post #281 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

This is exactly what I am thinking. Take cheap 4k tvs coming out of china n suddenly the likes of sony, samsung n lg had to drastically reduce their prices. It won't be long before the likes of benq epson etc all xome up with their 4k projectors and the sony will have to sell cheaper.

The point that I was getting at, while cheaper, they were not better. I expect the same to happen here. Besides, until 4K BD comes out or 4K downloads are available to all, there is less incentive for any company other than Sony to produce a 4K projector, because other companies do not have any 4K to show on it.

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post #282 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:47 AM
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Those of you that have bought the new 4k capable SONY projectors.

I am honestly wondering how long do you guestimate that you'll keep your projector for?

How about your previous projector?

I can't afford what you can so I may sound like sour grapes.... but IMHO (although speaking after not seeing any 4k player, material info at CES) I believe the smartest "investment" might be/(have been) to buy a cheaper but equally capable 1080p projector and truly invest for profit the remaining funds....or upgrade another piece of the equation and buy 2 years from now....

obviously to each his own and the same argument could have been made by others for me by early adopting the new water cooled BMW R 1200GS.... instead of purchasing the refined and matured previous design and possibly collectible model...

I just purchased a Stewart CIMA and in the 2014 calendar year I'll buy a projector... have to build piece by piece....

One thing is for sure... life is shorter than you think....so enjoy it as much as you can however you can....

The better the projector ( like the VW600 ), the longer most people will keep it I'll bet. I'm going on 5 years with my Lumis. Even though I thought about replacing it with a VW600 ( not quite ready ).

Not everything comes down in price - if I had to replace my 2001 Toyota Tacoma today, it would cost more. While there will be cheaper 4K projectors, will they be as good? Will you want one if it isn't as good?

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post #283 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mariob33 View Postwhy cant he consider it an "investment" with a negative (maybe ) ROI.

Fair enough a negative investment with a definitive negative ROI, but who cares i don't buy electronics as investments but really to enjoy what they deliver.  The issue I have with projectors is that technology makes them obsolete in three years time. So I was once an early adopter since I had the means to be, but unfortunately not anymore so now I have learned patience :)

 

Once the tech is released I wait three years so they work out the kinks and the price comes down then I can afford it.  I am still amazed that they have a plastic lens in a $15,000 projectors, are they made in China as well?  Also for Sony to have such a huge price difference between their home market $7000 and the US $15,000 or European $14,000 markets tells me they are just trying to rip us off!

 

With pricing transparency they should know better.

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post #284 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Sorry, should clarify: JVC's newest release is $5000 for the cheapest model.

JVC RS 46 MSRP, $3,495.
JVC RS4910 MSRP, $5,195.
JVC RS57 MSRP, $7,995.
JVC RS6710 MSRP, $12,495.

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post #285 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View PostThe better the projector ( like the VW600 ), the longer most people will keep it I'll bet.
Maybe! As long as they can play 4K BD
I'm going on 5 years with my Lumis. Even though I thought about replacing it with a VW600 ( not quite ready ).
I am going on 4 years with my JVC RS35U
While there will be cheaper 4K projectors, will they be as good?
Yes, probably better just look at all other electronic technologies it evolves and get better with time just like some wines!

 

Anyway congratulation to those buying the Sony, I think this is a great projector and thank you for being early adopters :) I just will wait until the dust settled BD 4K is released, the projectors are compliant and they come down in price!

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post #286 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
JVC RS 46 MSRP, $3,495.
JVC RS4910 MSRP, $5,195.
JVC RS57 MSRP, $7,995.
JVC RS6710 MSRP, $12,495.

Except no one pays these prices more like 20% off!

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post #287 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 10:00 AM
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While there will be cheaper 4K projectors, will they be as good?

Yes, probably better just look at all other electronic technologies it evolves and get better with time just like some wines!

Top wine ( 1st growth Bordeaux, top Brunello, Burgundy etc. ) like top quality projectors - have never gotten less expensive to buy. Just say'n.
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Yes it is the second chip, but that chip is said to not be full HDMI 2.0. It has a limit of 10.2Gbps where as full 2.0 is 18Gbps.

But going by this quote from Ron Jones:
Quote:
Even those early HDMI 2.0 implementations that are constrained to a 10.2 Gbps bandwidth may be able to fully support the 4K UHD video formats used by the first generation of UHD video sources. However, with a 4K UHD version of Blu-ray Disc potentially coming to market as early as late 2014, it is possible that a more complete HDMI 2.0 implementation will be required to support the most capable 4K UHD video formats allowed by this next generation Blu-ray system. Even so, such displays equipped with early HDMI 2.0 implementations should still be compatible with the future, more capable, 4K UHD video sources due to the method HDMI uses to negotiate to find a format that can be supported by both devices. In this case the 4K UHD source should be able to provide the best 4K UHD format that can be supported by the connected UHD display device.

The 600ES SHOULD be fine even if the 4k BD standard changes to a higher bandwidth above 10.2Gbps (say 4k@120, or 4:4:4 chroma, etc) because the HDMI connection can negotiate bandwidth restrictions to accomdate the "slowest" device in the chain. Correct or no?
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Except no one pays these prices more like 20% off!

Only prices that are supposed to be stated in the forum are MSRP and that is why I listed MSRP. smile.gif

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post #290 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 10:13 AM
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post #291 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

But going by this quote from Ron Jones:
The 600ES SHOULD be fine even if the 4k BD standard changes to a higher bandwidth above 10.2Gbps (say 4k@120, or 4:4:4 chroma, etc) because the HDMI connection can negotiate bandwidth restrictions to accomdate the "slowest" device in the chain. Correct or no?

Yes, you will be able to play the best possible quality allowed at 2.0b speed. A display with 2.0a speed might get slightly better, but not significantly for 24p. At 50/60p, the quality will be significantly reduced (422 8bits) and it won't play any 4K " 120p as we need HDMI 2.x for that (it will be played at 60p 422 8bits though). Again, the only thing that really matters for Bluray 4K is 24p for 99.99% of the movies. So except for the gamut, no significant (ie visible) limitations. The quality will suffer more for 4K games (when/if they arrive) and UHDTV at 50/60p and above.

It's like listening to music over the phone, you'll hear the music even if it is a CD playing, but it won't be CD quality (it won't be as drastic a difference, but that's to give you an idea). While those without HDCP 2.2 won't hear anything. Zip. Zilch. Nada. smile.gif
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post #292 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Yes, you will be able to play the best possible quality allowed at 2.0b speed. A display with 2.0a speed might get slightly better, but not significantly for 24p. At 50/60p, the quality will be significantly reduced (422 8bits) and it won't play any 4K " 120p as we need HDMI 2.x for that (it will be played at 60p 422 8bits though). Again, the only thing that really matters for Bluray 4K is 24p for 99.99% of the movies. So except for the gamut, no significant (ie visible) limitations. The quality will suffer more for 4K games (when/if they arrive) and UHDTV at 50/60p and above.

It's like listening to music over the phone, you'll hear the music even if it is a CD playing, but it won't be CD quality (it won't be as drastic a difference, but that's to give you an idea). While those without HDCP 2.2 won't hear anything. Zip. Zilch. Nada. smile.gif

Perfect! That cures any fears I had about having this nice expensive 600ES and not being able to play BD 4k when it comes out because it's HDMI 2.0a or whatever. Definitely makes sense now.

Thanks! Always love learning more and more smile.gif
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post #293 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 11:22 AM
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I think one of the purposes of these forums is to introduce fear or at least insecurity. I just wish the new 4K projectors came equipped with an air bag.

In the old FP CRT days we lived in fear of radiation and a 300 lb machine crashing down on one's head during an earthquake. Really.

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post #294 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nikos77 View Post

Those of you that have bought the new 4k capable SONY projectors.

I am honestly wondering how long do you guestimate that you'll keep your projector for?

How about your previous projector?

I can't afford what you can so I may sound like sour grapes.... but IMHO (although speaking after not seeing any 4k player, material info at CES) I believe the smartest "investment" might be/(have been) to buy a cheaper but equally capable 1080p projector and truly invest for profit the remaining funds....or upgrade another piece of the equation and buy 2 years from now....

obviously to each his own and the same argument could have been made by others for me by early adopting the new water cooled BMW R 1200GS.... instead of purchasing the refined and matured previous design and possibly collectible model...

I just purchased a Stewart CIMA and in the 2014 calendar year I'll buy a projector... have to build piece by piece....

One thing is for sure... life is shorter than you think....so enjoy it as much as you can however you can....

I replaced my way-past aging G70 CRT with the 600 and I had the G70 for a good 7-8 years. The picture was immersive (120" wide 2.35:1, totally light controlled dark room) and we thoroughly enjoyed the theater but I had finally reached the point where more of my library was BD than DVD and neither the HTPC or projector could play back 1080p so it was finally time to swap. The picture on the 600 rivals what we see in the theaters (better in a lot of cases, even with 4k digital theaters) and I fully expect we'll get at least another 5 years out of this one. I'm sure I'd notice some improvement with higher resolution content but I don't expect it will be night and day given how good the current picture is.

I'm expecting that I'll be replacing the bulb every couple of years just to keep the image looking really bright (we only watch movies in there once or twice a week) but that's about it.
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post #295 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 02:55 PM
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Enjoy. And yes it will give you a better picture than most commercial theaters.

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post #296 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 03:43 PM
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FYI I called Sony the other day and the guy told me the bulb life on the 600es is 2000hrs give or take how its used. Screen size, lamp mode etc.
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post #297 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Got my replacement today. Will not turn on till tomorrow night though.
Kinda lost my excitement already. But if this is a good unit, that might come back.
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post #298 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 04:46 PM
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post #299 of 386 Old 01-09-2014, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not like most... I don't get too excited, as I am such a flipping critic sometimes.

Ignorance is bliss people... Lol. I wish I could just sit down and enjoy without being so critical.
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