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post #61 of 85 Old 03-27-2014, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I think with the price, most think that we won't see 4K quality projectors that are in the 500/600ES or 1000/1100ES class. If JVC brings a 4K projector it, it will be something similar to Sony's quality, but others will not be able to produce something that is close to its quality. There will be other companies that will cut corners with the lens, processing, and contrast. It is going to happen, not all projectors will be in Sony and JVC class, because not all 1080p projectors are. How much will companies risk making a 4K HT projector with lesser quality parts in this market? They are already struggling to make profits in the HT market, so would they be willing to make a cheap 4K projector? It will definitely have to be in the $2000 MSRP range. AVS forum is not large enough to make profits for these companies.

Well that's the tricky thing isn't it, look at the Qualia Q004, it came out for an MSRP of approximately the same as the the VW1000, a few years later you could get what most would call a better projector for significantly less (VW60?). Sure it didn't have the same quality lens or a Xenon lamp but just like contrast isn't everything, those aren't everything either.

As for who would risk it, well who wouldn't "risk" it. We've got $1500 UHD LCD panels out there. Not achieving supreme quality hasn't stopped them from producing displays, I don't see projector manufacturers withholding UHD projectors, I imagine it will be quite the opposite, UHD is the next big "feature" that they will see to attract new buyers, so they'll throw out "UHD" projectors whether they are "worthy" of being called UHD or not.

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And 5 years later I'm still waiting for widespread bright LED or laser projectors. That hasn't arrived quickly.

Laser seems to have been a bigger challenge than they were expecting. But you're right on LED, I don't know what's the hold up there.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #62 of 85 Old 03-27-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Well that's the tricky thing isn't it, look at the Qualia Q004, it came out for an MSRP of approximately the same as the the VW1000, a few years later you could get what most would call a better projector for significantly less (VW60?). Sure it didn't have the same quality lens or a Xenon lamp but just like contrast isn't everything, those aren't everything either.

As for who would risk it, well who wouldn't "risk" it. We've got $1500 UHD LCD panels out there. Not achieving supreme quality hasn't stopped them from producing displays, I don't see projector manufacturers withholding UHD projectors, I imagine it will be quite the opposite, UHD is the next big "feature" that they will see to attract new buyers, so they'll throw out "UHD" projectors whether they are "worthy" of being called UHD or not.
Laser seems to have been a bigger challenge than they were expecting. But you're right on LED, I don't know what's the hold up there.


Only thing I can think of is brightness. I think getting enough brightness while keeping cost within reason has been the problem.

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post #63 of 85 Old 03-28-2014, 02:52 PM
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It seems to me that the Sony 4k projectors are more the exception more than the rule. I don't see a huge discrepency with their other projectors and don't recall seeing it with the VW90 or VW95.

I also don't see it with JVC and didn't with Panasonic the last few years either.

What is special about the import duties and taxes for Sony with these projectors that doesn't seem to cause the "never" to be true for all the projectors they've sold here and doesn't seem to apply to their competition either?

I just checked a Sony receiver. I can get it in the US for $498 shipped or from Japan for $650.

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Maybe Sony is pricing 4K projectors so that the rest of the world partially subsidizes sales in Japan, to spur adoption. Who knows.

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post #64 of 85 Old 03-28-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Maybe Sony is pricing 4K projectors so that the rest of the world partially subsidizes sales in Japan, to spur adoption. Who knows.
Looks like the US would be partially subsidizing most of the rest of the world in that case too since it isn't just Japan where the cost to consumers is significantly lower than in the US, especially if the value added tax in Europe is considered.

I looked at pricing for the Sony VW95 in the US vs Europe and what I found was $6k in US dollars vs $5.5k in Euros, while with the 500/600 they went with $15k US dollars vs $10k Euros.

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post #65 of 85 Old 03-28-2014, 08:18 PM
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Doubt the US market is subsidising any other market...just the marketing folk know the 4k projection market at this stage without an abundance of 4k source material is mostly limited to the enthusiasts who have a 'need' to have the latest tech and are willing to pay a premium for it. So why not milk it?

The real money to be made is in the selling of the source material(movies)...when this comes on stream, we most likely will see HW prices drop...as market penetration of hardware will be required to sell the software. 4k projectors under $5k...by 2015

I bet most folks movie collection $'s exceed the cost of their current projector.

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post #66 of 85 Old 03-28-2014, 08:26 PM
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So at the opposite end of the price range, Digital Projection has anounced a 4K 3 chip DLP to go on sale this year.

 

 

http://www.digitalprojection.com/tabid/110/mid/476/newsid476/412/Default.aspx

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post #67 of 85 Old 03-28-2014, 11:12 PM
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I still don't understand the "Japan is always cheaper" logic. Edit: I neglected to read the posts in the thread in the last couple pages which already extensively discussed my question. Oops!

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post #68 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

So at the opposite end of the price range, Digital Projection has anounced a 4K 3 chip DLP to go on sale this year.


http://www.digitalprojection.com/tabid/110/mid/476/newsid476/412/Default.aspx

What a deal!!! Buy a Titan LED 1080p projector now and get up to an 80% trade in on the UHD Titan when it comes out in the 2nd half of 2014. So it costs you only ~$15K (I.e., 20% the cost of a 1080p Titan LED) for getting to use the 1080p Titan LED mode for perhaps 6 months. Or you could just spend that $15K and buy a Sony VW600 to tide you over until the UHD Titan LED comes out then gift the VW600 to me in gratitude tor me giving you this advice..


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post #69 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post


What a deal!!! Buy a Titan LED 1080p projector now and get up to an 80% trade in on the UHD Titan when it comes out in the 2nd half of 2014. So it costs you only ~$15K (I.e., 20% the cost of a 1080p Titan LED) for getting to use the 1080p Titan LED mode for perhaps 6 months. Or you could just spend that $15K and buy a Sony VW600 to tide you over until the UHD Titan LED comes out then gift the VW600 to me in gratitude tor me giving you this advice..


.

 

One mans ceiling is always another mans floor I guess...

 

I think the target market here are customers who may have already purchased the Titan LED 1080p this year and the option for an upgrade is a good thing.

 

The bigger news is that 4K DLP in a smaller package will be available before year end.  I would assume that announcements from the usual suspects, Sim2, Runco, etc. can't be far behind.

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post #70 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 11:34 AM
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Hi,

Everyone know that Texas Instrument is working on a new 4K DLP chipset for mass production. It will not be a 4K chipset but a 2K including wobble instead.

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2014/03/28/dlp-4k-simulee-par-wobulation-fin-2014/

Translated from french ( sorry for my poor English ) :
We learned 27 March 2014 a new DLP chip from Texas Instrument will find out at end of 2014 for leading manufacturers of projectors to be integrated into models to be marketed early 2015 at a price target of € 5,000. Unfortunately for those hoping for a chip 4K native resolution, hopes will quickly fade, it will be a simulation of 4k through a system of wobble in the image like JVC offers by E-Shift device or MPC.
Our source told us that there would be no chip DLP 4K native resolution for the general public, for a problem of size and cost. We presented some of 4K projectors professionals during our report this year on the ISE Amsterdam. The solution employed by Panasonic on its prototype 4K DLP is also a simulated 4K resolution.

Regards.
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post #71 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 04:51 PM
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Hi,

Everyone know that Texas Instrument is working on a new 4K DLP chipset for mass production. It will not be a 4K chipset but a 2K including wobble instead.

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2014/03/28/dlp-4k-simulee-par-wobulation-fin-2014/

Translated from french ( sorry for my poor English ) :
We learned 27 March 2014 a new DLP chip from Texas Instrument will find out at end of 2014 for leading manufacturers of projectors to be integrated into models to be marketed early 2015 at a price target of € 5,000. Unfortunately for those hoping for a chip 4K native resolution, hopes will quickly fade, it will be a simulation of 4k through a system of wobble in the image like JVC offers by E-Shift device or MPC.
Our source told us that there would be no chip DLP 4K native resolution for the general public, for a problem of size and cost. We presented some of 4K projectors professionals during our report this year on the ISE Amsterdam. The solution employed by Panasonic on its prototype 4K DLP is also a simulated 4K resolution.

Regards.

If this is a quad shift, it could be quite a good solution for the consumer, if so, it could be better than JVC's Bi-Shift(e-Shift)

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post #72 of 85 Old 03-29-2014, 05:29 PM
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Regardless of the method used to have a 2K chip present 4K non natively, the technologies of the chips have different strengths and weaknesses.

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post #73 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post


Sony has an exclusive 4K market at the moment and they are taking advantage of it.  As competition increases, a 4K distribution system surfaces that is not Sony proprietary, and real 4K content is available, I'm sure prices will come down.  One year two years, who knows.  But IMHO, it ain't going nowhere for the masses until there is real content.  And by real content I mean 4K work flow, not 1080P or 2K up-scaled or scanned to 4K as there is simply not enough quality difference at current pricing for the majority of people to dump what they have now.

I disagree... the 4K upscaled bluray on the sony 500es is leaps and bounds better in picture quality than 2k projectors.

I have spent over 10 hours comparing the 500es vs the 55es, and now, the 55es looks like DVD to me...... the difference is like going from DVD to BluRay... and I only played 2K content.
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post #74 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 10:42 AM
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go back and compare the 500/600 to a current mid-range JVC, the story will be different with 1080P content. The HW55 uses a lens that isn't exactly the greatest and relies too heavily on the reality creation software to compensate.

The current JVC 4910 has a noticeably better lens and can hold it's own against the 600 with 1080P content. it also puts a whooping on it with on/off contrast. The major strength of the 600 is the excellent lumen output for large screens.
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post #75 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 11:04 AM
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I disagree... the 4K upscaled bluray on the sony 500es is leaps and bounds better in picture quality than 2k projectors.

I have spent over 10 hours comparing the 500es vs the 55es, and now, the 55es looks like DVD to me...... the difference is like going from DVD to BluRay... and I only played 2K content.

Or compare it to a DCI projector with 2K resolution. I was stunned at the detail - especially with DCI source material.

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post #76 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

go back and compare the 500/600 to a current mid-range JVC, the story will be different with 1080P content. The HW55 uses a lens that isn't exactly the greatest and relies too heavily on the reality creation software to compensate.

The current JVC 4910 has a noticeably better lens and can hold it's own against the 600 with 1080P content. it also puts a whooping on it with on/off contrast. The major strength of the 600 is the excellent lumen output for large screens.

First off, what's the point of having a projector if you're going to be projecting it onto a 100 inch screen? Why not just buy a 100 inch tv?

For me, a projector needs to project onto a screen at least 10 feet minimum...

People keep saying that JVC 2K can compete with the Sony 500ES in 2K content.. I don't know if this is true.. I have seen several JVCs and they are nowhere close to the 500ES...

Here's a comparison between a high end Runco with the Sony 500ES.. in almost every category, the 500ES beats the runco 2K... from projectorcentral
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It's easy to say that the VW600ES is superior to 1080p projectors that cost a fraction of its $14,999 price. But how does the VW600ES fare against something in its own price class?

The Runco XtremeProjection X-200i is a 1080p projector built for the custom installation and specialty design market. This boutique projector also sells for $14,999 with the standard lens through authorized Runco dealers. Runco has a reputation for building some of the finest projectors available at any price. How it stacks up against Sony's new 4K powerhouse?

The Runco X-200i is a beast of a projector. It is clad in an all-metal black chassis and it weighs nearly 60 pounds, about double the size and weight of the VW600. The centrally-mounted lens is interchangeable, and Runco offers lensing options with throw ratios between 1.85:1 to 4.00:1. It produces 1430 lumens after calibration and uses a single-chip DLP light engine with an all-RGB color wheel. It lacks many of the user-friendly features found on today's more consumer-oriented models, and is clearly designed to be professionally installed and calibrated. As such, you won't find features like powered lens adjustments, extensive zoom and lens shift, lens memory, frame interpolation, or smart sharpening on the X-200i.

The most noticeable similarity between the images of the X-200i and VW600ES is color. Both projectors are capable of producing near-perfect color, and any differences between them can be chalked up to variances in the individual calibrations rather than inherent differences in the projectors themselves. Neither projector has any obvious flaws in the color gamut or gave us any difficulty during calibration.

Perhaps the biggest image quality difference, though, is the sheer amount of detail produced by the VW600. Placed head-to-head against the X-200i, the VW600ES clearly has the more detailed image. This is true even without the benefit of the VW600's Reality Creation system, and turning it on only increases this perception.

Digital noise. The X-200i lacks an effective noise reduction feature. In sources with a moderate to high level of noise, that noise is more apparent on the X-200i than on the VW600. The X-200i has a noise reduction control that defaults to zero, but runs up to 200. At 200, noise is eliminated but the picture quality is substantially softened to the point of being unwatchable. Pushing the control up to just 50 produces a limited reduction of noise but already begins to impact image sharpness. We found the noise reduction feature on the X-200i of limited use, and noise to be a distracting artifact on many sources.

Light output. Both the X-200i and the VW600ES produce about 1300 lumens in their video-optimized modes, but the VW600ES's light output is highly variable while the X-200i is more or less fixed. The X-200i has a 1.3:1 lens, so it does not lose a significant amount of light due to zoom. On the other hand, the VW600ES can lose up to 30% of its light by using the telephoto end of its zoom lens. The X-200i lacks a low power or low lamp mode, does not have any preset image modes, and has no manual or automatic iris, so it is more or less locked at its maximum output. In contrast, you can use the zoom, iris, and lamp power to reduce light output on the VW600ES by up to 72%. So while the X-200i produces roughly 1300 lumens no matter what, the VW600ES can output anywhere between 1325 lumens and 370 lumens.

The X-200i's constant high light output makes it difficult to use in rooms with small screens. On the other hand, the VW600's light output is extremely adjustable, so it is trivial to fine-tune light output to fit your needs.

Contrast. The VW600ES wins when it comes to black level. In point of fact, it's not even a contest; the X-200i's black level is one of its weakest points. Dynamic range, on the other hand, is a very close match, and the X-200i is neck and neck with the VW600ES with each projector winning the comparison in certain scenes and losing in others.

Input lag. If you are the kind of person who wants to use your $15,000 projector for video games, the X-200i's input lag of 30 milliseconds beats the pants off of the VW600's 120ms time. The difference between the two is palpable. Controls feel sluggish on the VW600ES but snappy on the X-200i.

Audible noise. The VW600ES is near-silent during use. The X-200i, by contrast, has a louder fan that occasionally resonates with the projector chassis, causing a rising and falling rattle/hum during operation.

The bottom line is that the VW600ES is a more fully-featured projector that produces a cleaner, more detailed image than the X-200i. The VW600ES has significant advantages in clarity of detail, digital noise, black level, variability of light output, placement flexibility, overall feature set, and audible noise -- not to mention the fact that it is a 4K projector and thus capable of displaying native 4K content once more of it becomes available. The Runco X-200i, on the other hand, manages to tie the VW600ES in dynamic range and maximum light output, while also having a significant advantage in input lag. Overall, in terms of pure bang-for-the-buck performance, the VW600ES is a far better use of $15,000.
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post #77 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Or compare it to a DCI projector with 2K resolution. I was stunned at the detail - especially with DCI source material.

Right... Imax 2K still looks amazing...!!!
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post #78 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 11:14 AM
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I'd really like to understand why DCI machines look so good "despite" their limitations. What aren't our specs, or more accurately our measurements capturing that relates to picture quality to explain that?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #79 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 11:35 AM
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I'd really like to understand why DCI machines look so good "despite" their limitations. What aren't our specs, or more accurately our measurements capturing that relates to picture quality to explain that?

It's the source material for one. And ( look out Coolgeek ) they are built with higher quality commercial grade parts and lenses. The picture I saw on a 20' wide screen was top notch. Laser and DCI source material no doubt contributed to the excellent color too. DCI projectors are hamstrung in a commercial movie theater environment, with the need for exit lights / signs etc. In a top notch home theater set up - it's a different story.

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post #80 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

First off, what's the point of having a projector if you're going to be projecting it onto a 100 inch screen? Why not just buy a 100 inch tv?

For me, a projector needs to project onto a screen at least 10 feet minimum...

People keep saying that JVC 2K can compete with the Sony 500ES in 2K content.. I don't know if this is true.. I have seen several JVCs and they are nowhere close to the 500ES...

Here's a comparison between a high end Runco with the Sony 500ES.. in almost every category, the 500ES beats the runco 2K... from projectorcentral

Because a front projector is far cheaper than a 100" LED display and likely to have better PQ - even the more modestly priced ones.

You have your own preferences, others have theirs. Not everyone wants a 10 foot wide screen nor has the room for it.

Have all of these projectors you've been looking at been professionally calibrated equally? Calibration can make a HUGE difference in an A/B comparison.

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post #81 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 12:15 PM
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Because a front projector is far cheaper than a 100" LED display and likely to have better PQ - even the more modestly priced ones.

You have your own preferences, others have theirs. Not everyone wants a 10 foot wide screen nor has the room for it.

Have all of these projectors you've been looking at been professionally calibrated equally? Calibration can make a HUGE difference in an A/B comparison.

I think you can get a sharp 90 inch 2K led tv for something like $8K...

and 100 inch isn't that much different... and you're right, different people have different 'needs'... for me, unless you're going way bigger, a projector is just a waste of time and 'light controlled' room, etc... again, those are my opinions...

And even at 100 inches, i have yet to see any projector (though I have not seen all) that can compete with the sony 4k... if you go bigger, it's no contest...
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post #82 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 12:20 PM
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And even at 100 inches, i have yet to see any projector (though I have not seen all) that can compete with the sony 4k... if you go bigger, it's no contest...

You need to see more projectors then. I doubt your Sony could light up a 19" wide screen like the new laser projector we will have available shortly. smile.gif

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post #83 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

You need to see more projectors then. I doubt your Sony could light up a 19" wide screen like the new laser projector we will have available shortly. smile.gif

How is that even relevant to the argument at hand???? *scratches head*
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post #84 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 12:32 PM
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It's relevant because you said
Quote:
i have yet to see any projector (though I have not seen all) that can compete with the sony 4k... if you go bigger, it's no contest...

There are plenty of " home theater " projectors that can blow the VW600 out of the water. IF your wallet is big enough. smile.gif

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post #85 of 85 Old 05-22-2014, 12:34 PM
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It's relevant because you said

Everything in context... i was referring to '2k home theater projectors on the market at similar prices' today... as the topic of discussion is.. we're not robots btw and couldn't 'bring forward' context from sentences to sentences... tongue.gif
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