Where are all the DLP projectors? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I see tons of JVC and Sony (LCOS) threads and Epson and Panny (LCD) threads but not many DLP threads. I personally like the look of DLP but man its getting harder to find any projectors that aren't just business or junk models. DLP has lots of strengths like 3D and motion handling but have we hit a rock with little progress at a reasonable price. So I ask anything new of quality that's affordable compared to its counter parts (LCOS or LCD) out there of coming soon?
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post #2 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

I see tons of JVC and Sony (LCOS) threads and Epson and Panny (LCD) threads but not many DLP threads. I personally like the look of DLP but man its getting harder to find any projectors that aren't just business or junk models. DLP has lots of strengths like 3D and motion handling but have we hit a rock with little progress at a reasonable price. So I ask anything new of quality that's affordable compared to its counter parts (LCOS or LCD) out there of coming soon?

It has been something like 7 years since we have seen a new DLP chip. No advancements is why you do not see much going on with DLP. If you got into this hobby 10 years ago, DLP was king, but not anymore.

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post #3 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 11:48 AM
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DLP is only " King " in high end 3 chip projectors these days - which probably don't fall under your " affordable " or " reasonable " price categories.

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post #4 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

DLP is only " King " in high end 3 chip projectors these days - which probably don't fall under your " affordable " or " reasonable " price categories.

True, when it comes to light output, 3-chip DLP is king. Affordable, not to most people. smile.gif
Anytime you want to give me yours, let me know. smile.gif
It might actually work in my ambient light challenged family room.

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post #5 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 12:46 PM
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Anytime you want to give me yours, let me know.
It might actually work in my ambient light challenged family room.

You do know that I'm going to be buried with it when I die, using my SVS 20-39 cylinder sub as my coffin, right? eek.gifsmile.gif

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post #6 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 01:04 PM
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Don't listen to Mike , I'll give you actual money for it biggrin.gif Plus the cemetery workers will just steal it anyways. Haven't you ever seen Garden State? smile.gif

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post #7 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 01:09 PM
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Plus the cemetery workers will just steal it anyways. Haven't you ever seen Garden State?

Darn, you're right. I guess I'll need to be buried with it in my gun safe instead.............. wink.gif

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post #8 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post


Darn, you're right. I guess I'll need to be buried with it in my gun safe instead.............. wink.gif

 

Or maybe just buried with a gun in your hand...:)

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post #9 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Or maybe just buried with a gun in your hand...smile.gif

That would be no problem. He couldn't pull the trigger. smile.gif Maybe he needs a Claymore mine.

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post #10 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

DLP is only " King " in high end 3 chip projectors these days - which probably don't fall under your " affordable " or " reasonable " price categories.

Just curious, but why is the the case? I assume it's just market driven in the "affordable" consumer world where more people are wanting lcos-based technology projectors?

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post #11 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Just curious, but why is the the case? I assume it's just market driven in the "affordable" consumer world where more people are wanting lcos-based technology projectors?

I think the problem is TI is the only manufacturer of the DLP chip, while you have some many LCD related manufacturers worldwide.

When TI is in trouble, or decided to retreat from this DLP market, it will come to a complete stop.
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post #12 of 42 Old 02-21-2014, 09:20 PM
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For TI it's a blessing and also a possible curse. As someone else pointed out, it's been close to a decade since TI has actually done any R&D on it's enthusiast .95" DMD. It's great for them that they don't have to take any risk with manufacturing entire projectors and that leaves them with less liability for "losing the game" and less of a chance that they'd end up leaving the market, but if they don't continue to offer companies a viable (annually updated) product that can truly compete in regards to potential image quality then TI is going to find that the companies who've been purchasing their products for many years will go out of business because they simply can't compete with companies like JVC, Sony, and Epson, all of whom, continue to further their own technology on a yearly basis and in many ways offer a superior product because of it. They've already lost Mitsubishi and Sharp. Both bowed out of the home theater segment this past year. How many more will it take for them to realize that DLP is becoming less and less of a viable product that companies will actually want to base a products around? Hopefully they'll realize this and will do something about it when UHD/4K DMDs come out.

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post #13 of 42 Old 02-22-2014, 04:42 AM
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How does TI view the home cinema market, if it is only a small niche market in comparison to other more lucrative markets why would they bother innovating for it. TI is not getting the market up on the whole projector like JVC, Sony, Epson,  just the market up on the TI chip which I assume is the same per chip regardless of who they sell it to. I would expect TI is more interested in sales of DLP chips than picture quality of home cinema projectors.

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post #14 of 42 Old 02-22-2014, 05:06 AM
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How does TI view the home cinema market, if it is only a small niche market in comparison to other more lucrative markets why would they bother innovating for it. TI is not getting the market up on the whole projector like JVC, Sony, Epson,  just the market up on the TI chip which I assume is the same per chip regardless of who they sell it to. I would expect TI is more interested in sales of DLP chips than picture quality of home cinema projectors.

If companies can't sell projectors with those chips inside of them, then they are going to stop buying them from TI. TI should have a vested interest in how well their products can perform to the competition. Lately they've only been doing R&D on their smaller .65" DMD. TI realizes the market is better for them in the sub $1500 projector market so that's where they place their R&D. They've basically abandoned the high end market. With Sony and JVC about to devour the 4K market and no official word on a 4K DMD we might see the end of DLP pretty soon when it comes to referring it possessing "reference" picture quality. The gap in performance over the next few years may widen drastically. Only time will tell, but right now they (TI) aren't very interested in the high end market and how it competes with LCoS. I think that's plainly obvious to see.

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post #15 of 42 Old 02-22-2014, 09:33 AM
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TI might see its future sales  growth in pico projectors in mobile devices. TI has already seen the demise of rear projection displays despite its efforts for example wobulation chips. TI might see little point in trying to fight for the small high end home cinema market if the expected sales don't warrant the effort. TI still seem to have good market share in the bigger market for lower end home cinema and gaming projectors as well as the far bigger market for business projectors, and the smaller market for high lumen exhibition projectors and commercial cinema projectors. 

 

Besides what is the point of innovating in projector design if projector manufactures don't bother to implement the improvements because they would sooner build simpler cheaper projectors aimed at living room use or gaming. How many current DLP home cinema projectors use two cats eye irises one before the DLP chip and one in the lens? DLP is capable of native contrast far higher than most current home cinema projectors produce.

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post #16 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 08:55 AM
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To Mark77771's point, TI is focused on larger markets and substantial diversification beyond home theater.

 

TI has a new 0.3" 720p DMD operating at 120Hz, targeting smartphones and mobile devices.

 

 

 

 

 

You can read about it here: http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/dlp/display-controller/trp-technology.page?DCMP=dlp-pico3&HQS=trp-home

 

TI and DMD are far from dead.

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post #17 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 08:59 AM
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In the enthusiast world it will die if there is no further development.

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post #18 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 09:21 AM
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From what I hear there are new developments - but most likely for higher end home cinema projectors. Maybe we will see something new within 18 - 24 months.

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post #19 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 09:26 AM
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You're talking about a 4K DMD? I've heard about that too, but we need more than just a jump in resolution for it to be truly competitive.

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post #20 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 09:35 AM
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Actually I heard that an 8K chip is being worked on.

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post #21 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

You're talking about a 4K DMD? I've heard about that too, but we need more than just a jump in resolution for it to be truly competitive.
For those who want really big screens with close viewing ratio those 4K DMDs in a 3 chip projector could work well, given the higher light output 3 chip DLPs tend to have. I'm guesing you were referring more to the market on this forum and there I think a large portion of people will agree with you (although there will always be some variation in priorities).

For the Digital Cinema units I believe these 4K DMDs actually have less on/off CR than the 2K DMDs they replace. If that is the case when they hit home theater units it will of course disappoint many people.

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post #22 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 10:58 AM
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Well, there are some who think there will be a $2,000 4k DLP in less than 2 years. I think its funny
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post #23 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 12:33 PM
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try the under 3000 forums. plenty of DLP in there.

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post #24 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 03:23 PM
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try the under 3000 forums. plenty of DLP in there.

Not many worth buying though
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post #25 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 06:12 PM
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In the enthusiast world it will die if there is no further development.
The consumer micro display market died 5 years ago when the RPTV market died. There is not enough $$$ in the extremely small HT projector segment to spend any money on R&D.
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post #26 of 42 Old 02-24-2014, 07:31 PM
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The consumer micro display market died 5 years ago when the RPTV market died. There is not enough $$$ in the extremely small HT projector segment to spend any money on R&D.

That isn't true as there have been several R&D endeavors in the TI DMD word within the past 5 years. Also, I would wager the projector market as a whole sells/sold them more DMDs then the RPTV industry did. Other than Mitusbishi there wasn't any other major player in that sector meanwhile there are literally hundreds of companies trying to share the projector world. You have to remember that DLP is was and is still king when it comes to business, education, and commercial projection, though 3LCD is catching up. It's just the enthusiast .95" DMD that has "died". To my knowledge the enthusiast .95" DC3 and DC4 DMDs weren't used in RPTVs but rather the less performing .65" DMDs.

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post #27 of 42 Old 02-25-2014, 02:45 PM
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Actually I heard that an 8K chip is being worked on.

It would make sense for TI to leap-frog 4K and go to 8K. The only thing 4K brings to the party is higher resolution. The ITU-R standard for 8K not only gives us higher resolution but more contrast and color. Resolution is the least important element on the list of ingredients for good imaging:

1. Contrast
2. Color
3. Brightness
4. Resolution

Some might argue for making Brightness #2, but either way, resolution is the least important...particularly if proper consideration is exercised with respect to optimal screen size and viewing distance. Look for 8K to emerge around 2017 (along with a new HDMI standard). Until then, I'm staying with DLP 1080p.
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post #28 of 42 Old 02-25-2014, 02:48 PM
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Look for 8K to emerge around 2017 (along with a new HDMI standard). Until then, I'm staying with DLP 1080p.

Me too. I'll truly be able to say I got my money's worth out of my Lumis by 2017 !!

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post #29 of 42 Old 02-25-2014, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

It would make sense for TI to leap-frog 4K and go to 8K. The only thing 4K brings to the party is higher resolution. The ITU-R standard for 8K not only gives us higher resolution but more contrast and color.
How would TI get more contrast from their DMDs if they waited for 8K instead of 4K? As they probably wouldn't make the chips 4 times the size even maintaining the same contrast ratio would likely be difficult as fill ratio goes down and there is more non-mirror surface area. Somewhat applies to peak light output also.

Maybe I misread that contrast comment as contrast ratio. If that meant something else it would be interesting to hear what it was referring to.

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post #30 of 42 Old 02-25-2014, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

That isn't true as there have been several R&D endeavors in the TI DMD word within the past 5 years. Also, I would wager the projector market as a whole sells/sold them more DMDs then the RPTV industry did. Other than Mitusbishi there wasn't any other major player in that sector meanwhile there are literally hundreds of companies trying to share the projector world. You have to remember that DLP is was and is still king when it comes to business, education, and commercial projection, though 3LCD is catching up. It's just the enthusiast .95" DMD that has "died". To my knowledge the enthusiast .95" DC3 and DC4 DMDs weren't used in RPTVs but rather the less performing .65" DMDs.
Please name these significant HT R&D efforts by TI in the last 5 years? The .95" DC3 and DC4 were shipped in 2006 and 2007, 7 years ago. We have not even seen the minimal R&D investments around process improvements from TI that we have seen from the LCOS crowd that have ground out small improvements in the LCOS devices.

The .95" DC4 is a 15K:1 device. Sharp and Marantz were able to get 8K:1 on/off out of it in 2007. With a bare minimum investment one would have seen a 12k;1 much cheaper light engine 6 years later. Where is it?

The R&D effort that took micro displays from 480p and on/off of < 500:1 to 1080p and 4K with on/off 50K:1 cost well over $1BB and was driven by one simple fact. Companies wanted a share of the market for TVs which was a 300 million unit per year market with estimates that the RPTV market could be 100 million units per year. When the bottom fell out of the RPTV marketplace that killed the R&D dollars for micro displays.

In 2006 which was the RPTV heyday, 2.5MM units were shipped compared to 400K HT projectors and 4.5MM total projectors. Fast forward to 2014 and last year ~10MM projectors, <1MM HT projectors were shipped.
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