JVC X500 and Lumagen Radiance 2041 - HDMI handshaking & cable issues - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 02-26-2014, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I contacted Lumagen because of the following problem with my JVC X500 & Radiance 2041:
Quote:
Unfortunately the 4k playback via the JVC projector X500, regarding the Radiance 2041, seems to be quite a big drama. IMHO there are still some problems on both sides: Lumagen and JVC. Even after the FW update of the X500 it seems that something doesn't fit. I have needed days to use my Radiance 2041 as a 4K upscaler for the X500. With my old HDMI cable it was not possible to display an upscaled 4k picture via the Radiance. There were a lot of sparkles and drop-outs. Another cable also didn't show a picture. Only a third HDMI cable with RedMere technology from Monoprice solved the issues: 2k and 4k playback via the Radiance 2041 was working ! BUT (!): this friday I put the HDMI cable into the HDMI1 input of the X500. There were no problems. Yesterday (= saturday) I wanted to show my girlfriend the X500. However it was not possible to display a picture again via the HDMI1 input, neither in 2k, nor in 4k (BUT: I could display the menu of the 2041. Input said: NA) !!! I haven't changed ANYTHING! I then thought: crap, there's probably still a bug in the X500. Therefore, I have turned the X500 off, unplugged it and turned it on after 5 minutes again. But: nothing happened! The X500 did not display any picture. After removing the Radiance out of the HDMI chain everything worked well. But as soon as the Radiance has been added again: NO picture! Out of frustration, I stuck the HDMI cable into the HDMI2 input of the X500 ... and see: at once an image has been displayed! 2k and 4k has been functioning without any dropouts! After reconnecting the 2041 to the HDMI1-input of the X500, the image has gone again. Conclusion: there is something wrong with the HDMI inputs / timing on the X500 & 2041. Firstly I was afraid that I have wrecked the HDMI1 input of the X500. But once I have removed the Radiance out of the HDMI chain, a picture was also displayed on the HDMI1 input of the X500.
I hope that Lumagen still can optimize something. IMHO this seems to be a HDMI timing issue.

The answer from Lumagen:
Quote:
When a display has multiple HDMI inputs they aren't identical. One of the HDMI inputs has a ARC (Audio Return Channel). In some cases it will work better if you connect the output of the Radiance to a display input that doesn't have ACR. If you are having issues, always try using a different input on the display.

I have heard that JVC is still working on the implementation of the HMDI input on the X500. Make sure that you check for future JVC software updates.

We would like to get a JVC X500 projector demo unit so that we can do some testing. Please contact Lumagen if anyone knows where we can borrow a X500 projector for a few days.

Also make sure that your are using good quality generic HDMI cables to connect your video sources to the Radiance. Use cables that are at least 6 foot long. We recommend using cables that are equivalent to cables from Monoprice.com, BluejeansCable.com, or PCHCables.com.

Please have a look at the BOLD phrase.

Is there anybody out there who can supply Lumagen with a JVC-X500 device to do some testing ?

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067
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post #2 of 15 Old 02-26-2014, 02:41 PM
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Well, good luck with that. smile.gif

FWIW, I had the same fears about using the Lumagen 2041 with my new RS57, whether they'd talk ok, whether the 2041 would work with my existing 45 foot long HDMI cable, etc.
It's turned out fine. The Lumagen and RS57 work together, and my HDMI cable seems to pass upscaled 4K from the Lumagen without problem. I wonder why the X500 model might
be different.
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post #3 of 15 Old 02-26-2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

I contacted Lumagen because of the following problem with my JVC X500 & Radiance 2041:
The answer from Lumagen:
Please have a look at the BOLD phrase.

Is there anybody out there who can supply Lumagen with a JVC-X500 device to do some testing ?

Why not send lumagen your projector?
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post #4 of 15 Old 02-26-2014, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra 150 pilot View Post

Why not send lumagen your projector?

I am located in germany wink.gif I thought that there are some dealers in the USA who can supply Lumagen with a test device for a few days.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067
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post #5 of 15 Old 02-26-2014, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I wonder why the X500 model might
be different.

I can see the upscaled 4k signal of the 2041 via the HDMI2-input of the X500, but not via the HDMI1-input of the X500. Without the 2041 in the HDMI chain I can also see a 1080p signal via the HDMI1-input of the X500

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067
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post #6 of 15 Old 02-28-2014, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Well, good luck with that. smile.gif

FWIW, I had the same fears about using the Lumagen 2041 with my new RS57, whether they'd talk ok, whether the 2041 would work with my existing 45 foot long HDMI cable, etc.
It's turned out fine. The Lumagen and RS57 work together, and my HDMI cable seems to pass upscaled 4K from the Lumagen without problem. I wonder why the X500 model might
be different.


They are the same internally. Only difference is the color of the trim ring on the outside.

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post #7 of 15 Old 03-01-2014, 07:20 PM
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Lumgaen is literally a few miles from my house. I'll contact them and see if they want to borrow my 4910..

Wish I had seen this earlier in the week.. I'm out of town for a bit and could have left my projector with them..
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post #8 of 15 Old 03-02-2014, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
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That will be great and I appreciate it very much smile.gif I think you know how to get in contact with Lumagen. Otherwise send me a private message.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067
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post #9 of 15 Old 03-04-2014, 02:50 PM
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I've been in contact with Lumagen and will contact them again when I get back home. Ask everyone for a little patience.. I won't be home for a couple more weeks..
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post #10 of 15 Old 03-24-2014, 12:26 PM
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There's a firmware update available for the projectors.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1505192/official-jvc-dila-x500r-rs49u-rs4910u-owners-thread/1020#post_24522247

I just dropped of the projector at Lumagen and saw the above thread.. go figure.. Although looks like the update was released a matter of hours ago.
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post #11 of 15 Old 03-24-2014, 02:42 PM
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Thanks to pdxfj for bringing in his RS4910 for us to test here at Lumagen.

We have not yet loaded the very latest JVC software update mentioned above by pdxfj, and still are finding that pdxfj's JVC RS4910 and the Radiance 2041 are working well with each other. We are testing with several different long HDMI 1.4 2k rated cables and a 50 foot Monoprice Redmere 4k rated to both the JVC inputs from the Radiance 2041 the JVC and Radiance at 1080p60 and 4k24, and switching between these modes. If we can't reproduce any issues here it may come down to HDMI cabling in any problematic system.

We will continue testing the RS4910. If you have a specific sequence of events for us to test, please let us know.

We will post results here, probably on Thursday since we only have the RS4910 until then.

=====

I have posted the following elsewhere but for completeness think it is appropriate for here as well:

The Lumagen Radiance 20XX units use 4K HDMI output chips. These have faster edge rates. “Transmission Line Theory” clearly states that the faster the edge-rate of the signal the better the transmission line environment must be. This translates to the quality of the HDMI cable and, yes, it means that you may very well need better HDMI cables for devices with 4k rated output chips, verses devices with 2k rated output chips. Edge rates will vary between chip manufactures. So, HDMI cable quality demands will even vary between different 4k rated HDMI output chips.

This is specific to the output chips edge rates. We have had several customers who needed to switch to 4k rated cables for the Radiance 20XX series. This is a matter of physics and applies whether you are driving a 2k TV/projector at 2k, or a 4k device at 4k. Because of this, Lumagen strongly recommends 4k rated HDMI cables from the output of the Radiance 20XX series to the TV/projector or Audio processor. We have found the Monoprice Redmere active cables work very well with the output of the 20XX series.

In addition, as always, standard HDMI cable rules apply. These include never using an HDMI cable less than 6 feet (2 meters), due to HDMI cable EQ making short cable signals too hot in many cases. Sometimes lengthening a 2 meter cable to a 3 to 5 meter HDMI cable will help if there is quite a bit of cable EQ. As cables approach 30 feet (9 meters) cable length makes HDMI cable quality (including speed rating) and the HDMI receiver’s design critical. Since every HDMI connection will have some level of Transmission-line reflections, which can cause nodal points based on cable length, changing to a slightly shorter or slightly longer cable can move the cable nodal response away from critical failure points.

Try several different brands of HDMI cables if there are issues. At this length differences in manufacturers cable EQ (transmitter and receiver) and speed ratings (2k or 4k) make a significant difference.

Be cautious with name-brand cables. Users have seen issues with some of the more expensive brands. Of course many high-end HDMI cables work well, but why pay more for the same "bits" coming down the wire. Unlike analog cables, the bits are either passed exactly (e.g. solid picture) or they aren't (e.g. sparkles, drop-outs, etc.). Our customers have had good results with Monoprice, DVI Gear, or Bluejeans HDMI cables. For the Mini, XS, XD, XE 2K rated cables work well, but for Radiance 20XX units, please make sure to use 4k rated HDMI cables on the 20XX outputs to either a display or audio processor.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
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post #12 of 15 Old 03-24-2014, 03:24 PM
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I just read Nudgiator's first post here and found this:

"However it was not possible to display a picture again via the HDMI1 input, neither in 2k, nor in 4k (BUT: I could display the menu of the 2041. Input said: NA) !!! I haven't changed ANYTHING! I then thought: crap, there's probably still a bug in the X500. "

----

I guess I should have read the entire post sooner, because if the Radiance Status Screen (or Menu) says NA for the input mode, the issue is NOT between the Radiance and the projector, but from the source to the Radiance. The NA means the Radiance cannot detect a signal on its input. So the RS4910 testing is a wild goose chase.

If you see NA in the Radiance status (pressing OK brings up the Status), check your cabling from the source to the Radiance after reading the portion of my last post relating to HDMI cabling and cable length.

If you see NA for the input, you might also have a source that has stopped outputting on HDMI and either cycling power or pulling and re-installing the cable may fix the issue. If you continue to get the NA for the input, we will need to get more information on your source(s), and your cabling to try to help.

The good news is that this is not an issue between the Radiance and the JVC X500/RS4910. Sill many thanks to pdxfj for bringing his RS4910 over for testing. It is always good to do some stress testing with as many products as we can and so I don't think the time has been wasted.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
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post #13 of 15 Old 03-25-2014, 09:18 AM
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Glad everything is going well so far. Don't feel obligated to install the firmware update. I only mentioned it on the off chance it might help any issues you run into. If you need or want more time, I could leave it for a week sometime soon.
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post #14 of 15 Old 03-25-2014, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxfj View Post

There's a firmware update available for the projectors.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1505192/official-jvc-dila-x500r-rs49u-rs4910u-owners-thread/1020#post_24522247

I just dropped of the projector at Lumagen and saw the above thread.. go figure.. Although looks like the update was released a matter of hours ago.

Sorry, I posted as soon as I found out about the update.

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Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/

 

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post #15 of 15 Old 04-20-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

I just read Nudgiator's first post here and found this:

"However it was not possible to display a picture again via the HDMI1 input, neither in 2k, nor in 4k (BUT: I could display the menu of the 2041. Input said: NA) !!! I haven't changed ANYTHING! I then thought: crap, there's probably still a bug in the X500. "

The problem is still there with my JVC X500: via the HDMI 2 input of my X500, sometimes I get a 4k picture and sometimes not. Via the HDMI 1 input of the X500 I get a 4k picture all the time. Very confusing ...

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067
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