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post #1 of 56 Old 03-03-2014, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Thinking of that 720p vs 1080p test done in Greece many years a go its was proven that most people couldnt tell the difference.

I cant help but think that when people go and demo the new VW1000 and VW11000 projectors that most of the detail of the image is due to the amazing quality of the glass lens, with the extra resolution only playing a small part.

I personally think there is a reason that the Sony use cheap plastic lenses with the HW50 and HW55, as if they used a decent glass lens with reality creation the gap wouldnt be worth the extra towards the 4K projectors.

Anyone agree, with my way of thinking towards optics against actual resolution?

Question to Seegs, your a DLP optics guy have you had chance to see 4k vs one of your past DLP optic kings like your planar 8150?

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post #2 of 56 Old 03-03-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jamieuk147 View Post

Thinking of that 720p vs 1080p test done in Greece many years a go its was proven that most people couldnt tell the difference.

I cant help but think that when people go and demo the new VW1000 and VW11000 projectors that most of the detail of the image is due to the amazing quality of the glass lens, with the extra resolution only playing a small part.

I personally think there is a reason that the Sony use cheap plastic lenses with the HW50 and HW55, as if they used a decent glass lens with reality creation the gap wouldnt be worth the extra towards the 4K projectors.

Anyone agree, with my way of thinking towards optics against actual resolution?

smile.gif

If I recall, that blind viewing test was done with two Marantz projectors. One was a 12S4 (720P) and the other was a 11S1 or 11S2 if I recall. The viewing took place from 1.5 to 2.0 screen widths, I believe.

I have seen a lot of projectors and the resolution of the Sony makes a difference. Enough so, that I chose a 600ES for my own theater. I view from 2.37 screen heights. I have a scope screen. If using scope width, then 1.07 screen widths.

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post #3 of 56 Old 03-06-2014, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok thanks. Wish I could see a projector like the Planar 8150 which has an amazing lens with a darbee vs 500ES
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post #4 of 56 Old 03-06-2014, 04:01 PM
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I have seen the VW1000 side by side againt the Sim2 Lumis 3DS and the VW1000 looked alot sharper and I don´t think it is due to the superior lens in the Sony when the Sim2 also has a top notch lens. So the difference is clearly visible.wink.gif

And the VW1000 is sharper than the VW500 and that is I think because of the lens quality in the VW1000 is alot better than the VW500, I also saw the VW500 side by side against the VW1000.

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post #5 of 56 Old 03-06-2014, 04:03 PM
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I haven't seen one of the 4K Sony machines yet. But Mike makes a great point. The resolution quadrupling will most likely have a more dramatic effect when it comes to perceived sharpness over absolute lens quality. The lens quality of the Planar (and several other projectors that use the same exact lens) is a small step down from them the one used on the Marantz and Samsung but is still quite nice and better than most other lenses out there with an msrp of $15000 or lower.

Like I said , I haven't seen either 4K machine so I can't make a comparison but I would imagine they look sharper with video content due to the increase in pixel density and sheer resolution even with 1080p bluray.

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post #6 of 56 Old 03-06-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jamieuk147 View Post

Ok thanks. Wish I could see a projector like the Planar 8150 which has an amazing lens with a darbee vs 500ES

 

The Planar 8150 was a great projector for the price...............yet  is not in same league as 1000, especially on a larger screen. I've demoed all the Lumis line..........great projectors and bright as heck!  But I still think my 1000 is  keeper!  ;)

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post #7 of 56 Old 03-06-2014, 06:43 PM
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I should also note that I'm not using a PD8150 anymore. I currently have a JVC DLA-X90 and I don't see myself going to back to DLP. The only one I might consider would be a Sim2 Lumis or something similar from Sim2. While there are a few things I miss about the technology, the JVC I have does so many things right that I can live with the few small niggles that I have with it. As far as a Sony 4K machine goes, I don't know if I really need it. I don't have a monster screen so the extra brightness the Sony's give is kind of a moot point and from what I've read, with 1080p blu-ray there doesn't seem to be much of a PQ difference between the flagship JVC (or a cheaper one with with a good lens sample) and the 4K Sony's especially when you enable e-shift. When there is a true 4K format out and a reasonable amount of content, then I may switch over to a true 4K machine. But for the time being I think I'm going to stick with the JVC.

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post #8 of 56 Old 03-06-2014, 07:24 PM
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I, too, was talking like that. I don't need a 4K projector based on all the same / various reasons but subconciously, the truth is, I don't want to pay $25K for one.

But in the end, I did purchased the VPL-VW1000ES and not regreting it.

The only reason why you want to buy one now is because you simply want the best projector picture you can get from a 1080p source. The upscaling the Reality Creation does is far superior than any upscaling from software player or hardware player that I have used. The true 4K picture give the kind of resolution no 1080 or e-shift projector can hope to deliver.....period. So, a VW500ES / VW600ES at half the price of a VW1000ES / 1100ES would be a good consideration if you want a better picture over all 1080 or e-shift projectors out there.

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post #9 of 56 Old 03-06-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I should also note that I'm not using a PD8150 anymore. I currently have a JVC DLA-X90 and I don't see myself going to back to DLP. The only one I might consider would be a Sim2 Lumis or something similar from Sim2. While there are a few things I miss about the technology, the JVC I have does so many things right that I can live with the few small niggles that I have with it. As far as a Sony 4K machine goes, I don't know if I really need it. I don't have a monster screen so the extra brightness the Sony's give is kind of a moot point and from what I've read, with 1080p blu-ray there doesn't seem to be much of a PQ difference between the flagship JVC (or a cheaper one with with a good lens sample) and the 4K Sony's especially when you enable e-shift. When there is a true 4K format out and a reasonable amount of content, then I may switch over to a true 4K machine. But for the time being I think I'm going to stick with the JVC.

I think I'm in the same boat. If JVC doesn't provide a native 4k model this fall, I have only two options. Buy a RS49 for reasonably cheap or get a Sony 1000/1100ES. I'm actually satisfied with 500 lumens on my DPI LED, so I know the JVC will be enough for me. Honestly, a native 4k JVC might not even be an upgrade with 1080p material but it allows us to play future 4k content. CEDIA can't come soon enough, only 6 months away smile.gif
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post #10 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 02:36 AM
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It's a cart and the horse thing......till 4KBluray is in swing...at lease 50 good titles....and more being added to...personally I see no incentive to dive in.

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post #11 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 04:49 AM
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It's a cart and the horse thing......till 4KBluray is in swing...at lease 50 good titles....and more being added to...personally I see no incentive to dive in.

 

To your point, until some more film studios other than Sony Pictures get on board it's difficult for me to get excited about 4K.  Nothing wrong with Sony Pictures, but I would like to see more choice and support from the industry.  Additionally, there is no mention of support from broadcast television as they are still dealing with the depreciation expense associated with the move to HD.

 

1080P still puts out a better picture on my 10' wide screen than I typically get at the local Cineplex.  I've seen the Sony 4K projectors beginning with the roll out of the VPL-VW1000es at CEDIA two years ago.  There is an improvement to be seen if you have good source material but not so much as to throw the baby out with the bath water.  The key words being the availability of good source material.

 

I'm sure 4k will come but I'm content to set and wait until there is more choice in available projection/display equipment and there is a real content delivery system like 4K Blu-ray or reliable/affordable download/streaming service.  And of course a buy in from the film industry other than just Sony.  I'm content to let the early adopters take the hit on this one.  Don't forget there are absolutely no pre/pro's or receiver's on the market at this time that support HDCP 2.2 or HDMI 2.0 that is necessary for 4K use at home in a traditional way.  Sony's 4K delivery system, at this time, does not support HD audio.

 

Major studios supporting limited 4K content for home use:

 

  • Sony Pictures/Columbia Pictures studio units.

 

 

Major studios not supporting 4K content for home use at this time:

 

  • Warner Brothers and subsidiaries
  • Walt Disney and subsidiaries
  • Universal Pictures and subsidiaries
  • 20th Century Fox and subsidiaries
  • Paramount Pictures and subsidiaries
  • Lions Gate Entertainment and subsidiaries
  • Dream Works  and subsidiaries
  • MGM Studios/Pictures and subsidiaries
  • The Weinstein Company and subsidiaries
  • Open Road Films
  • CBS Films
  • Broadcast TV
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post #12 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 09:37 AM
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The only reason why you want to buy one now is because you simply want the best projector picture you can get from a 1080p source. The upscaling the Reality Creation does is far superior than any upscaling from software player or hardware player that I have used. The true 4K picture give the kind of resolution no 1080 or e-shift projector can hope to deliver.....period. So, a VW500ES / VW600ES at half the price of a VW1000ES / 1100ES would be a good consideration if you want a better picture over all 1080 or e-shift projectors out there.

This is a good way of looking at the current 4K projectors IMO. If I wasn't still satisfied with my Lumis, I would have bought a VW600 after Cedia. I'm just trying to hold out a little longer before I upgrade! wink.gif

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post #13 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 01:12 PM
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To your point, until some more film studios other than Sony Pictures get on board it's difficult for me to get excited about 4K.  Nothing wrong with Sony Pictures, but I would like to see more choice and support from the industry.  Additionally, there is no mention of support from broadcast television as they are still dealing with the depreciation expense associated with the move to HD.

1080P still puts out a better picture on my 10' wide screen than I typically get at the local Cineplex.  I've seen the Sony 4K projectors beginning with the roll out of the VPL-VW1000es at CEDIA two years ago.  There is an improvement to be seen if you have good source material but not so much as to throw the baby out with the bath water.  The key words being the availability of good source material.

I'm sure 4k will come but I'm content to set and wait until there is more choice in available projection/display equipment and there is a real content delivery system like 4K Blu-ray or reliable/affordable download/streaming service.  And of course a buy in from the film industry other than just Sony.  I'm content to let the early adopters take the hit on this one.  Don't forget there are absolutely no pre/pro's or receiver's on the market at this time that support HDCP 2.2 or HDMI 2.0 that is necessary for 4K use at home in a traditional way.  Sony's 4K delivery system, at this time, does not support HD audio.

Major studios supporting limited 4K content for home use:
  • Sony Pictures/Columbia Pictures studio units.


Major studios not supporting 4K content for home use at this time:
  • Warner Brothers and subsidiaries
  • Walt Disney and subsidiaries
  • Universal Pictures and subsidiaries
  • 20th Century Fox and subsidiaries
  • Paramount Pictures and subsidiaries
  • Lions Gate Entertainment and subsidiaries
  • Dream Works  and subsidiaries
  • MGM Studios/Pictures and subsidiaries
  • The Weinstein Company and subsidiaries
  • Open Road Films
  • CBS Films
  • Broadcast TV

Several of the studios you list as "not supporting 4K content" are in fact actively involved in the Blu-ray 4K development. At least Disney and Fox, in addition to Sony, have been confirmed to be participating in the technical group formed by the BDA to create the Blu-ray 4K spec. (Source: Hollywood Reporter).

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post #14 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 01:54 PM
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Several of the studios you list as "not supporting 4K content" are in fact actively involved in the Blu-ray 4K development. At least Disney and Fox, in addition to Sony, have been confirmed to be participating in the technical group formed by the BDA to create the Blu-ray 4K spec. (Source: Hollywood Reporter).

 

Not to put to fine a point on it Ron, but if you quote me in full context I said "not supporting 4K content for home use at this time".

 

For clarification, to the best of my knowledge, there is no place I can readily go to or or method I can use to down load or playback any 4K content from the listed studios other than Sony.  This differs from Sony's ad hoc delivery system that does supply 4k content today.

 

Your link states "that we could see the first players at next year’s CES."  That's still more than a year out and those first players first CES player could be prototypes or the real thing; no one knows yet.

 

I'll be as happy as anyone to see 4k but as I said I'm not too excited about having some hadware that isn't really very well supported.  Your linked information would indicate we are still the best part of two years before we see some content other than Sony Pictures.  I hope I'm wrong...

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I think all of the studios will eventually come on board - some sooner than others.

On the bright side, at least there will not be a format war again.

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post #16 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 06:09 PM
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On the bright side, at least there will not be a format war again.

I sure hope not! I need to replace all my HD DVD's with Blu Rays if I hope to make room in my equipment rack for a 4K UHD Blu Ray player............... rolleyes.gif

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Not to put to fine a point on it Ron, but if you quote me in full context I said "not supporting 4K content for home use at this time".

For clarification, to the best of my knowledge, there is no place I can readily go to or or method I can use to down load or playback any 4K content from the listed studios other than Sony.  This differs from Sony's ad hoc delivery system that does supply 4k content today.

Your link states "that we could see the first players at next year’s CES."  That's still more than a year out and those first players first CES player could be prototypes or the real thing; no one knows yet.

I'll be as happy as anyone to see 4k but as I said I'm not too excited about having some hadware that isn't really very well supported.  Your linked information would indicate we are still the best part of two years before we see some content other than Sony Pictures.  I hope I'm wrong...

Next year's CES is 10 months away.

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post #18 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 06:57 PM
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Next year's CES is 10 months away.

 

Yes, it is.  And as you well know, very few of these types of products introduced at CES ship until second quarter or later.

 

Look, I'm all for it, but there's a lot of work to be done in 10 months.  We can speculate all you want; If wishes were fishes, we could fry some.

 

I really don't expect to see this in stores until late 2015.  Geez Louise, I live in a fairly affluent area and none of the brick and mortar stores that are Sony dealers have ever put a 4K projector on display as yet and the VLP-VW1000es 2+ years old now.

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post #19 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 07:21 PM
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The only reason why you want to buy one now is because you simply want the best projector picture you can get from a 1080p source. The upscaling the Reality Creation does is far superior than any upscaling from software player or hardware player that I have used. The true 4K picture give the kind of resolution no 1080 or e-shift projector can hope to deliver.....period. So, a VW500ES / VW600ES at half the price of a VW1000ES / 1100ES would be a good consideration if you want a better picture over all 1080 or e-shift projectors out there.

This I find hilarious...so taking a 1080p frame up scaling it to 4 times it's original area with no additional detail makes it a better image?.....I think not, to do that and for the image not to appear soft, manufacturers have to apply a plethora of band aids, such as sharpening, contrast enhancement....apply those 'enhancements' on a 1080p machine by using a Darbee or similar and the image will be superior from the appropriate distance for viewing a 1080p source.

4K projectors will shine with 4K source.....not with 1080p.

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post #20 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Audio Lee View Post


The only reason why you want to buy one now is because you simply want the best projector picture you can get from a 1080p source. The upscaling the Reality Creation does is far superior than any upscaling from software player or hardware player that I have used. The true 4K picture give the kind of resolution no 1080 or e-shift projector can hope to deliver.....period. So, a VW500ES / VW600ES at half the price of a VW1000ES / 1100ES would be a good consideration if you want a better picture over all 1080 or e-shift projectors out there.

(Audio)

RC is not upscaling. You can shut RC completely off and the Sony's will and must upscale to 4K. RC are special algs applied to further improve the picture to one;s eyes.

The Sony scaling deliberately introduces ringing which itself gives the illusion of increased sharpness but at the cost of seeing high frequency detail at contrast transitions because of the visible halo caused by the ringing.yt

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post #21 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 08:52 PM
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Yah trade-offs with everything I suppose.

How did the Pearl Jam song go?

Oh yah, I'm still alive....
Not that anyone cares :P

I'm just joking, been a while since I posted, figured I'd throw some off-topic garbage in the mix. My re-introductory post, been a bit busy at work.


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post #22 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

4K projectors will shine with 4K source.....not with 1080p.

Yah not much point in using a 4k projector for 1080p except that some of the 4k projectors are very expensive and function better than the 1080p projectors overall, so the fact you are getting a better projector can still justify it even without that much 4k content.

Even that said, SOME 720p content looked better on a 720p projector than it does on a 1080p projector, but depends on how clean the 720p source or master was. 720p projectors hide noise better than 1080p projectors because of the fewer pixels and the ratios and all that of the scaling, re-scales can emphasize noise due to more pixels I assume affect the way we perceive the noise in the image as the pixels become more scattered between each pixel's fill ratio (hence the more numerous pixels in a given area). Not sure why we see much less noise on a native pixel mapping, but I assume that is why it happens, hence that is just my assumption.


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post #23 of 56 Old 03-07-2014, 10:39 PM
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I sure hope not! I need to replace all my HD DVD's with Blu Rays if I hope to make room in my equipment rack for a 4K UHD Blu Ray player............... rolleyes.gif

LOL, you an' me both!
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post #24 of 56 Old 03-08-2014, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yah not much point in using a 4k projector for 1080p except that some of the 4k projectors are very expensive and function better than the 1080p projectors overall, so the fact you are getting a better projector can still justify it even without that much 4k content.

Even that said, SOME 720p content looked better on a 720p projector than it does on a 1080p projector, but depends on how clean the 720p source or master was. 720p projectors hide noise better than 1080p projectors because of the fewer pixels and the ratios and all that of the scaling, re-scales can emphasize noise due to more pixels I assume affect the way we perceive the noise in the image as the pixels become more scattered between each pixel's fill ratio (hence the more numerous pixels in a given area). Not sure why we see much less noise on a native pixel mapping, but I assume that is why it happens, hence that is just my assumption.

The price vs performance is a big factor with a native 4K projector. I can understand if you want to upgrade from a $1000 Optoma, Acer, or Benq to a $3000 Sony, Epson, or JVC. The PQ will be a significant difference and it would be only a $2000-$2500 price difference. With a 4K projector, certain factors will make the upgrade worth it over a $3000-5000 projector, but the cost of that performance will be huge.
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post #25 of 56 Old 03-09-2014, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

This I find hilarious...so taking a 1080p frame up scaling it to 4 times it's original area with no additional detail makes it a better image?.....I think not, to do that and for the image not to appear soft, manufacturers have to apply a plethora of band aids, such as sharpening, contrast enhancement....apply those 'enhancements' on a 1080p machine by using a Darbee or similar and the image will be superior from the appropriate distance for viewing a 1080p source.

4K projectors will shine with 4K source.....not with 1080p.


Well, did I say that we take a 1080p picture and scale it to 4 times the original area without enhancing it? You said it, not me. smile.gif. No wonder you found it hilarious.

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post #26 of 56 Old 03-09-2014, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

RC is not upscaling. You can shut RC completely off and the Sony's will and must upscale to 4K. RC are special algs applied to further improve the picture to one;s eyes.

The Sony scaling deliberately introduces ringing which itself gives the illusion of increased sharpness but at the cost of seeing high frequency detail at contrast transitions because of the visible halo caused by the ringing.yt

Ok. If you want to accurate, you maybe right. But hell, do I really love the RC picture. That's all it matters....doesn't it? smile.gif

Then Darbee enhancements done on a 1080 picture displayed on a 1080 screen is worse, right?

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post #27 of 56 Old 03-10-2014, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Audio Lee View Post

Well, did I say that we take a 1080p picture and scale it to 4 times the original area without enhancing it? You said it, not me. smile.gif. No wonder you found it hilarious.

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The key was no additional detail.....the so called enhancements are essential to create an acceptable image....at the expense of high frequency detail....as Mark pointed out(I learn something new every day!)......1080p source with a 1080 projector and Darbee will have a better more detailed end result, specially when viewed from an appropriate distance for 1080. smile.gif

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Will it? Because the 1080p projector will introduce more (larger?) aliasing to the picture than the 4k projector since the size of the square pixel elements is larger. It's the same reason DVDs can look better and appear more detailed on a 1080p projector than a 480p one, the 480p display introduces noise into the image that is not in the source, aliasing (the square pixel edges). All that aliasing can obscure real detail that's present in the source. It's like using oversampling DACs in audio to ensure the reconstruction filter doesn't filter out any of the actual signal.

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post #29 of 56 Old 03-10-2014, 05:01 AM
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At least for 720p projectors, they seem to play a 720p source with less visible noise than a 1080p projector does, once your eyes adjust to the pixel fill. I've never owned a 480p projector for HT use, so hard to say about 480p, but at that point the pixels are really big and we're so far beyond that point that even mentioning 480p seems less than useful.

Personally speaking, I've never seen a 720p source look cleaner on a 1080p projector than a 720p projector, the scaling always causes a hit in quality (at least if doing an apples to apples comparison of course, meaning 2 similar capable projectors). Though the scaling algorithms have gotten better, so it's possible a 1080p projector could look better even on a 720p source, but I'm just saying I've never seen it.

Again only apples to apples, a 4k projector playing a 1080p source should have more "apparent noise" than a 1080p projector playing a 1080p source. Though since the pixels are already really small on DLP and LCOS even for 1080p, then you probably won't notice it as much compared to 720p vs. 1080p noise levels.

Not going by theory, simply going by what I've seen over and over again.


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post #30 of 56 Old 03-10-2014, 06:07 AM
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I should also note that I'm not using a PD8150 anymore. I currently have a JVC DLA-X90 and I don't see myself going to back to DLP. The only one I might consider would be a Sim2 Lumis or something similar from Sim2. While there are a few things I miss about the technology, the JVC I have does so many things right that I can live with the few small niggles that I have with it. As far as a Sony 4K machine goes, I don't know if I really need it. I don't have a monster screen so the extra brightness the Sony's give is kind of a moot point and from what I've read, with 1080p blu-ray there doesn't seem to be much of a PQ difference between the flagship JVC (or a cheaper one with with a good lens sample) and the 4K Sony's especially when you enable e-shift. When there is a true 4K format out and a reasonable amount of content, then I may switch over to a true 4K machine. But for the time being I think I'm going to stick with the JVC.

I wonder if you will feel this way by the end of this week. smile.gif

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