JVC 4K Projector - What Does JVC Need to Accomplish to Compete with Sony? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

It does not make sense for any other manufacturer, besides Sony to get into the 4K market right now. No one else besides Sony has any content.
Yet in the flat panel market the 4 major players; Samsung, LG, Sony, and Sharp all have 4K offerings.

Sony is maybe the only projector maker with a 4K process line today (.78" chip size) that is commercially viable for the consumer marketplace. JVC' 4k device (1.27") and even Sony's DCinema's (1.5") are regardes as not financially viable for the consumer market.
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post #62 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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As far as JVC's 1080p projectors for next year, are there any expected major improvements in contrast, or is it likely to be incremental from this year?

Someone mentioned that JVC is working on a new light engine. I think it's safe to say the current light engine/chassis is about as much as we can expect JVC to deliver while being economically responsible at the price point they're selling their products at. We've only seen small increments over the last 2-3 years. I'm sure they could develop higher quality/more efficient wire grid polarizers but they may cost a lot more to manufacture and develop. So it's possible they could design an even better light engine to give us more contrast?

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post #63 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 04:49 PM
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Someone mentioned that JVC is working on a new light engine. I think it's safe to say the current light engine/chassis is about as much as we can expect JVC to deliver while being economically responsible at the price point they're selling their products at. We've only seen small increments over the last 2-3 years. I'm sure they could develop higher quality/more efficient wire grid polarizers but they may cost a lot more to manufacture and develop. So it's possible they could design an even better light engine to give us more contrast?

Why would a JVC need more contrast, I think JVC need something other than more contrast.

And to Kris. Do you really JVC stays out of the 4K projectors because they want to? Why would they print 4K on their non 4K projectors then?? If JVC could they would have lauched a 4K projector this year I am 100% sure about that. JVC will come up with 4K machines, but when they come on the market only they know. I am not sure it will come this fall, but I hope so to push Sony and let them have some competition in the 4K projector world.smile.gif

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post #64 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Someone mentioned that JVC is working on a new light engine. I think it's safe to say the current light engine/chassis is about as much as we can expect JVC to deliver while being economically responsible at the price point they're selling their products at. We've only seen small increments over the last 2-3 years. I'm sure they could develop higher quality/more efficient wire grid polarizers but they may cost a lot more to manufacture and develop. So it's possible they could design an even better light engine to give us more contrast?

Very cool. I might have a better reason to upgrade my 4810 come the end of the year.

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post #65 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Why would a JVC need more contrast, I think JVC need something other than more contrast.

And to Kris. Do you really JVC stays out of the 4K projectors because they want to? Why would they print 4K on their non 4K projectors then?? If JVC could they would have lauched a 4K projector this year I am 100% sure about that. JVC will come up with 4K machines, but when they come on the market only they know. I am not sure it will come this fall, but I hope so to push Sony and let them have some competition in the 4K projector world.smile.gif

When did I say I thought they needed more contrast. Why else design a new light path? It's either more lumens or more contrast when redesigning a light path. Going off of what JVC has done in the past I'm going to assume they want to boost contrast even more.

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post #66 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Why would a JVC need more contrast, I think JVC need something other than more contrast.

And to Kris. Do you really JVC stays out of the 4K projectors because they want to? Why would they print 4K on their non 4K projectors then?? If JVC could they would have lauched a 4K projector this year I am 100% sure about that. JVC will come up with 4K machines, but when they come on the market only they know. I am not sure it will come this fall, but I hope so to push Sony and let them have some competition in the 4K projector world.smile.gif

More contrast never hurts, figures help move projectors. I agree with Kris's words...without 4K sources and standards being finalised, what is the benefit in offering a native 4k panel , when with 1080p sources an E-shift projector will provide a similar result for the majority at a fraction of the price.

I'd love to see the sales stats of the Sony 4k range vs the JVC E-shift 4K range in pure dollar terms.

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post #67 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I think we all know 4K content is coming. We just don't know exactly when. That hasn't stopped Sony 4K owners from buying those units. Sony has only very recently released 4K content. The reason why I want JVC to release a projector now at a higher price point is for selfish reasons. I want a JVC that has a lens roughly as good as the one in the Sony 600ES. I don't want JVC to wait and release a product at a lower price point initially because as the price goes down so does lens quality. I'd be more than happy with current contrast levels on a new JVC that has a true 4K resolution panel and higher lens quality.
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post #68 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Why would a JVC need more contrast, I think JVC need something other than more contrast.

And to Kris. Do you really JVC stays out of the 4K projectors because they want to? Why would they print 4K on their non 4K projectors then?? If JVC could they would have lauched a 4K projector this year I am 100% sure about that. JVC will come up with 4K machines, but when they come on the market only they know. I am not sure it will come this fall, but I hope so to push Sony and let them have some competition in the 4K projector world.smile.gif

I agree, JVC can stop on the contrast front for awhile and still be on top by a huge margin. I think there are some tweaks they can do to their new dynamic iris to polish it up a bit, but I don't think they need to achieve even more contrast at this point.

And yes I think JVC is staying out of native 4K because they want to. JVC is not as large as I think most people think and the economies of scale given the current 4K market wouldn't make much sense from an economic standpoint. So yes, I think they are holding off for VERY sound reasons.

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post #69 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 06:35 PM
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Yet in the flat panel market the 4 major players; Samsung, LG, Sony, and Sharp all have 4K offerings.

Sony is maybe the only projector maker with a 4K process line today (.78" chip size) that is commercially viable for the consumer marketplace. JVC' 4k device (1.27") and even Sony's DCinema's (1.5") are regardes as not financially viable for the consumer market.

I am referring to the projectors introduced last fall, for this year. This fall I expect to see other companies with 4K projectors. Those will be the projectors for next year, when we have 4K BD.

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post #70 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 08:55 PM
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I am referring to the projectors introduced last fall, for this year. This fall I expect to see other companies with 4K projectors. Those will be the projectors for next year, when we have 4K BD.
As you know, JVC has had a 4k micro display device 1.27" with 20K:1 device contrast (10K:1 system contrast) selling in a $130K projector since 2010. We will see if they have done the R&D and production line investments to turn it into a consumer product for < $ 30K.
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I'd love to see the sales stats of the Sony 4k range vs the JVC E-shift 4K range in pure dollar terms.
Take this with a grain of salt but the boys from Sony say the 4k projectors are one of their fastest selling products they have seen in a long, long time.
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post #72 of 87 Old 03-17-2014, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

As you know, JVC has had a 4k micro display device 1.27" with 20K:1 device contrast (10K:1 system contrast) selling in a $130K projector since 2010. We will see if they have done the R&D and production line investments to turn it into a consumer product for < $ 30K.
JVC already had very good fill ratio with their 1080p models before this year, but at CEDIA 2013 they were showing how much they had improved it for the current generation and they were saying that this would help with 4K. So, I expect to see 4K chips that are largely based on their current 1080p chips with the improved fill ratio.

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post #73 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 12:41 AM
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I agree, JVC can stop on the contrast front for awhile and still be on top by a huge margin. I think there are some tweaks they can do to their new dynamic iris to polish it up a bit, but I don't think they need to achieve even more contrast at this point.

And yes I think JVC is staying out of native 4K because they want to. JVC is not as large as I think most people think and the economies of scale given the current 4K market wouldn't make much sense from an economic standpoint. So yes, I think they are holding off for VERY sound reasons.

I think the main reason for them to stay out is economics not that they want to.

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post #74 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 06:18 AM
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I think the main reason for them to stay out is economics not that they want to.

 

IMHO the main reason to stay out at this point in time is there simply is no native 4K source or material to be displayed.  Kind of like having a $100K Tesla electric car with no place to plug it in.  4K is all very nice but mostly useless with the exception of up-scaled 1080P and JVC does a a great job with this now.

 

Sony's vertical integration with its film studios and its proprietary 4K server are the only game in town for source and material.  Without Sony's film studios, Sony would be selling an alternative up-scaling 4K projector vs. JVC's 4K e-shift. And there is the possibility of disappointment for Sony early adopter's when 4K source devices are finally released.

 

I'm confident JVC will step up with a very competitive product in due time.

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IMHO the main reason to stay out at this point in time is there simply is no native 4K source or material to be displayed.  Kind of like having a $100K Tesla electric car with no place to plug it in.  4K is all very nice but mostly useless with the exception of up-scaled 1080P and JVC does a a great job with this now.

Sony's vertical integration with its film studios and its proprietary 4K server are the only game in town for source and material.  Without Sony's film studios, Sony would be selling an alternative up-scaling 4K projector vs. JVC's 4K e-shift. And there is the possibility of disappointment for Sony early adopter's when 4K source devices are finally released.

I'm confident JVC will step up with a very competitive product in due time.

While that is possible, do you think Sony would have gone to all the trouble and cost to upgrade VW1000ES projectors, only to have them fail at 4K BD, right around the corner? I just don't think that is going to be the case, especially when you consider Sony has the votes on the BD council.

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post #76 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 07:08 AM
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While that is possible, do you think Sony would have gone to all the trouble and cost to upgrade VW1000ES projectors, only to have them fail at 4K BD, right around the corner? I just don't think that is going to be the case, especially when you consider Sony has the votes on the BD council.

 

I didn't say "fail", I said disappointment I'm quite certain the current 4K Sony projectors and panels will work with the expected 4K BD.  The question is will they support the full bandwidth of the new standard?  And what is that standard?

 

I hope it's all well and good for the sake of people who have bought the new Sony machines.  However, Sony has a long history of bring new product to market that is a few degrees left or right of what the market actually turns out to be.

 

Sure, Sony is a major architect in regards to a new standard, but there are a lot of other voices in the choir.  I will feel much more comfortable when the other studio's make announcements regarding the standard.:)

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post #77 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 07:15 AM
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IMHO the main reason to stay out at this point in time is there simply is no native 4K source or material to be displayed.  Kind of like having a $100K Tesla electric car with no place to plug it in.  4K is all very nice but mostly useless with the exception of up-scaled 1080P and JVC does a a great job with this now.
The same arguments were made by TI in 2004 after Sony and JVC introduced the first 1080p LCOS devices. At that time TI also came out with a pseudo 1080p solution which I'm sure we all remember. The issue then is the same as today. TI did not have a consumer price point viable solution. It took them more than 6 years to shrink their 1080p solution down to the point where it was consumer price point feasible.

We know JVC sells today a real 4K device in a $130K box. The question is when will they be able to shrink that device down to <.8" and likely < .7" to be in the packaged price point of < $5K for their low end unit. Chip yields, light engine costs and especial lens costs are directly related to chip size. Will they be able to deliver the same performance characteristics with the downsized device?

We shall see.
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post #78 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 07:54 AM
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While that is possible, do you think Sony would have gone to all the trouble and cost to upgrade VW1000ES projectors, only to have them fail at 4K BD, right around the corner? I just don't think that is going to be the case, especially when you consider Sony has the votes on the BD council.

I'm honestly of mixed opinion on this. I think their projectors will "work" with the future format, I think they assured that with HDCP 2.2 support. The question to me is whether it will fully realize the potential of the format. Sure it is a native 4K panel but in terms of support for bit depth, higher frame rates and color gamut I think it will be well short of the mark. And I REALLY hope that Sony doesn't push for a future format that truncates its potential to what their 4K projectors are capable of now. I don't want any 4K Blu-ray format to be the equivalent of what they are offering on their server with no improvements short of a bump in native resolution. That would be a travesty.
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post #79 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 08:25 AM
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The same arguments were made by TI in 2004 after Sony and JVC introduced the first 1080p LCOS devices. At that time TI also came out with a pseudo 1080p solution which I'm sure we all remember. The issue then is the same as today. TI did not have a consumer price point viable solution. It took them more than 6 years to shrink their 1080p solution down to the point where it was consumer price point feasible.

We know JVC sells today a real 4K device in a $130K box. The question is when will they be able to shrink that device down to <.8" and likely < .7" to be in the packaged price point of < $5K for their low end unit. Chip yields, light engine costs and especial lens costs are directly related to chip size. Will they be able to deliver the same performance characteristics with the downsized device?

We shall see.

 

Yes, agreed.  Except that I don't think it was 6 years between 1080P content and 1080P display technology for DLP.  Blu-ray was officially released in 2006. you could buy a .95-1.0" DMD 1080P projector (not wobulated) in 2006/2007.  Marantz, Sim2, etc. had them.

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Yes, agreed.  Except that I don't think it was 6 years between 1080P content and 1080P display technology for DLP.  Blu-ray was officially released in 2006. you could buy a .95-1.0" DMD 1080P projector (not wobulated) in 2006/2007.  Marantz, Sim2, etc. had them.
That is why I said 'consumer price point feasible'. The .95" DMDs were were too large, thus expensive to make and sell by TI and expensive to put in a box due to light engine/lens cost to compete with the offerings from Sony, JVC, and the LCDs. It was only whith the scale down to the .65" chips (with significant performance losses) that they became competetive. That is why I sad around 6 years.
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I may be remembering wrong but the only other 1080p projectors at the same time as the Marantz 11S1 were the Qualia and maybe the Ruby?? JVC had the HD2K but I don't remember what year the RS-1 came out. I owned the Marantz 11S1 right when it came out, which was before Blu-ray and right around the same time as the HD-DVD launch. I had a lot of D-Theater titles at the time though.

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post #82 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 10:05 AM
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JVC had the HD2K but I don't remember what year the RS-1 came out.

The press release for it was November 15, 2006.
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Long Beach, CA (November 15, 2006) – JVC expands its D-ILA home theater projector line-up with the introduction of the high definition DLA-RS1 projector, featuring its newly developed 0.7-inch full HD D-ILA device that achieves a previously unattainable native 15,000:1 contrast ratio without the need for dynamic iris or other artificial means of contrast enhancement.
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post #83 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 10:26 AM
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I may be remembering wrong but the only other 1080p projectors at the same time as the Marantz 11S1 were the Qualia and maybe the Ruby?? JVC had the HD2K but I don't remember what year the RS-1 came out. I owned the Marantz 11S1 right when it came out, which was before Blu-ray and right around the same time as the HD-DVD launch. I had a lot of D-Theater titles at the time though.
IIRC:
Q1 2004: Q04 2K:1 on/off at $30K
Q4 2004: JVC HD2K 2K:1 on/off at $30K
Q4 2005: VW100 (Ruby) 3k:1 to 15K:1 DI at $10K
Q2 2006: Marantz 11S1. 3K:1 at $20K?
Q4 2006: Sharp 20000: 8K:1 at S15K?
Q4 2006: VW50 (Pearl). 3k:1 to 10K:1 DI at $5K
Q1 2007: JVC RS1. 15K;1 at $5.5K
Q4 2007 VW60 ( Black Pearl) 5K to 30K:1 DI at $5K

By the time The 11S1 came out it was 2 years after the Q04 and 6 months after Ruby. ^ months after the 11S1 debuted at $20K the $5K Pearl and then the big dog RS1 at 15K:1 static CR made it game over
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post #84 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 10:29 AM
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I'm honestly of mixed opinion on this. I think their projectors will "work" with the future format, I think they assured that with HDCP 2.2 support. The question to me is whether it will fully realize the potential of the format. Sure it is a native 4K panel but in terms of support for bit depth, higher frame rates and color gamut I think it will be well short of the mark. And I REALLY hope that Sony doesn't push for a future format that truncates its potential to what their 4K projectors are capable of now. I don't want any 4K Blu-ray format to be the equivalent of what they are offering on their server with no improvements short of a bump in native resolution. That would be a travesty.

I could be wrong, but I think the increased bit depth and wider gamut will come with the change that occurs after the introduction of 4K BD. In other words, I think it will be a while. Not saying this is a good thing, just think that is what is going to happen.

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post #85 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 10:33 AM
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I guess we'll see. I've heard some rumors from insiders on it that Hollywood wants 4:4:4 and 12 bit plus full gamut. BDA wants lower. Still a mystery but I think we'll know more at CEDIA and maybe all at CES.

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post #86 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 01:10 PM
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There is speculation that 4k BD may use Google's open source VP9 codec.
The VP9 supports: Rec. 601, Rec. 709, SMPTE-170, SMPTE-240, and sRGB.
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post #87 of 87 Old 03-18-2014, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I guess we'll see. I've heard some rumors from insiders on it that Hollywood wants 4:4:4 and 12 bit plus full gamut. BDA wants lower. Still a mystery but I think we'll know more at CEDIA and maybe all at CES.

Yes, expecting to know a lot from CEDIA and think all will be clear by CES. I am expecting BD to rule on this one.

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