Is one "ooooh" "aaaah" moment worth all this "upgrading"? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

There are a few advantages:
Those 480i movies would need to have really good scripts
I doubt the chemical peel would have been invented
You wouldn't have to buy your favourite movie 4 times in different formats
Laserdisc would be cool

my vcr still works, I didn't HAVE to rebuy anything, I CHOSE to rebuy because I can't stand the quality of vhs...

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post #32 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

Wow, hadn't heard about that being a problem yet. So more is always better! biggrin.gif

FYI:
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #33 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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When I was building speakers in the early 70's I was a big fan of more small drivers both for reasons of quality and expense. It was much easier for the driver to be accurate and controlled if the mass was smaller, so just use a bunch of them. Avoided the mud. smile.gif

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The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

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Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #34 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so just FOUR. biggrin.gif

Joe -----

The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #35 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

You're not doing stereo bass, but bass frequencies creates standing waves in rooms with nulls and peaks at different frequencies depending on the placement of the listeners and the subs (thus it cant even be solved by equalization for more than one specific location even if you have a fancy processor). Two subs at different positions will give a more even response curve, they will fill in each others blanks so to speak. Hence two subs are preferential to one.

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Wow, hadn't heard about that being a problem yet. So more is always better! biggrin.gif

Correct. If you want even bass response, you have to have multiple subs. Now when you start trying to reach deeper and want even bass response it gets interesting. You would be surprised at how much woofer area and RMS power it takes.

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post #36 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


Now when you start trying to reach deeper and want even bass response it gets interesting. You would be surprised at how much woofer area and RMS power it takes.

Actually, I wouldn't. I was fighting that fight, and doing the math, 40 years ago. 2 db is the smallest increment of volume increase that can be detected. Doubling the RMS power gets you only a 3 db increase in volume. Exponentially increasing power demands. My first stereo amp had 13 watts RMS per channel, Then 35. Then 80. Then 100. Then 5 channels at 100 each. I remember when Infinity made their "monster" stereo amps at 350 watts per channel. Oh, the good old days.

There was a guy in my town building tower speakers with 4 12" woofers per side (subs weren't really invented yet). And another guy ran 4 15" drivers per side. (plus a robust complement of mids and tweeters of course).

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post #37 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

OK, so just FOUR. biggrin.gif

A person here has done 18 on one wall with a very thick rockwoll absorber on the backwall. Impressive results in the 100 Hz and down range. No nulls or modes.

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post #38 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

A person here has done 18 on one wall with a very thick rockwoll absorber on the backwall. Impressive results in the 100 Hz and down range. No nulls or modes.

Wow, how did he get that home in the car? biggrin.gif And rock wool is really itchy. wink.gif

My old research indicated that there wasn't much music down there. 60 hz was about the lowest of the low, and it wasn't even an attention getter, and very rare. I suppose (from what I hear in traffic) that there are some producers out there actually trying to make us deaf, but I bet they have to use octave-halving electronics to do that. Conventional instruments won't get there, and certainly not regularly or at much volume.

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"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #39 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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How about this for a troll? smile.gif

If you have to do A/B testing to figure out if you are better off, then you aren't. eek.gif

That's kind of a variation on my signature line, which just came to me based on these discussions. cool.gif

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The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #40 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

Actually, I wouldn't. I was fighting that fight, and doing the math, 40 years ago. 2 db is the smallest increment of volume increase that can be detected. Doubling the RMS power gets you only a 3 db increase in volume. Exponentially increasing power demands. My first stereo amp had 13 watts RMS per channel, Then 35. Then 80. Then 100. Then 5 channels at 100 each. I remember when Infinity made their "monster" stereo amps at 350 watts per channel. Oh, the good old days.

There was a guy in my town building tower speakers with 4 12" woofers per side (subs weren't really invented yet). And another guy ran 4 15" drivers per side. (plus a robust complement of mids and tweeters of course).

40 years ago the 12" and 15" drivers were not subs They were mid woofers. Those speakers could/would (if properly designed) work well for high output music, but I doubt they could reach clean reference levels down to even 20hz. It is a whole different world, getting reference levels down into the single digits. It does take a lot of power and a lot swept area of high excursion drivers. Go to the DIY section and you will see many examples of guys that are getting really deep bass with high output. There is stuff on BD's that many people do not get to experience. Like the sonic canon scene in the Hulk movie. If you have a system that is capable enough, you can feel the sonic canon pulses hit you.

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post #41 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

Wow, how did he get that home in the car? biggrin.gif And rock wool is really itchy. wink.gif

My old research indicated that there wasn't much music down there. 60 hz was about the lowest of the low, and it wasn't even an attention getter, and very rare. I suppose (from what I hear in traffic) that there are some producers out there actually trying to make us deaf, but I bet they have to use octave-halving electronics to do that. Conventional instruments won't get there, and certainly not regularly or at much volume.

Music, not a lot of deep stuff, but certainly lower than 60hz. Now movies are completely different. If you can't get an f3 on your system down to 20-25hz, then you are missing a lot.

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post #42 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

40 years ago the 12" and 15" drivers were not subs They were mid woofers. Those speakers could/would (if properly designed) work well for high output music, but I doubt they could reach clean reference levels down to even 20hz.

I think you might be thinking of the 50's and 60's when they sold a lot of "full range" drivers. The people who made the speakers I've been talking about used "School" by Supertramp to literally shake our pants legs. We had db meters and equalizers, and test records with sine waves and such, so we knew what we had. The large arrays of woofers were crossed over to handle only the lowest octaves, with 6" and 8" drivers handling the low midranges. It was just a built in subwoofer in effect. But huge ones. These things stood head high for a vertical array or were 3 feet wide, depending on the configuration.

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The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #43 of 106 Old 03-18-2014, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Now movies are completely different. If you can't get an f3 on your system down to 20-25hz, then you are missing a lot.

And you are exactly right. I forgot where I was for a minute (thinking audio source material only). My sub actually scares me sometimes.

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The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

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Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #44 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 08:54 AM
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And unless your room is plus 56 ft long, you will always be missing what's there. I would get a new hobby or buy a house with a proper room. You can listen to doubled up bass but its not what you will get in a commercial theater of the proper size. There is no free lunch and you can have 8K, a scanning laser projector with DCI color space, a commercial theater feed and you will strike out. What's the point?. You will be missing something that is there. smile.gif

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post #45 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, it's been a long time. I forgot about wavelengths of the lower octaves. I guess there isn't much down there, if you're at home. We used to use piezoelectric tweeters that would produce at 50,000 cycles, just to make sure we were able to get to 15 K. Now they sell them to run off cockroaches.biggrin.gif

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The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #46 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

How about this for a troll? smile.gif

If you have to do A/B testing to figure out if you are better off, then you aren't. eek.gif

That's kind of a variation on my signature line, which just came to me based on these discussions. cool.gif

That is a bit disingenuous on your A/B testing. Because if you don't do A/B testing then how do you know either way. Based upon that statement it is a rationalized to keep people ignorant "for their own good". A good politician you would be.

Secondarily, the 60 Hz comment is really bothersome; for both "music" and movies". Telling a person listening to dub-step that sub 60Hz doesn't matter is like saying a parachute doesn't matter for sky diving and being serious about it.

Not being mean here...just trying to keep it "honest" to put some context. Interesting topic. smile.gif

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #47 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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See above. 56 feet. If the wavelength is longer than your space, you can't hear it.

The A/B comments is intended to be though provoking. I've done it many times and heard and seen differences that I thought were significant. But, the truth is, I didn't have to do an A/B. I could tell when there were "significant" differences, Especially over time. It was always fun being surprised by what I saw as improvements. They dribbled out. But what I'm saying is that if you have to go back and forth and wonder if there is a difference, and then wonder if it is better or worse, then you might be "trying to pick knat-$#! out of pepper" as Walter Matthau said in JFK.

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The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #48 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 12:51 PM
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That is a bit disingenuous on your A/B testing. Because if you don't do A/B testing then how do you know either way. Based upon that statement it is a rationalized to keep people ignorant "for their own good". A good politician you would be.

Secondarily, the 60 Hz comment is really bothersome; for both "music" and movies". Telling a person listening to dub-step that sub 60Hz doesn't matter is like saying a parachute doesn't matter for sky diving and being serious about it.

Not being mean here...just trying to keep it "honest" to put some context. Interesting topic. smile.gif

i think the point is(and i agree with as far as common sense goes) that any appreciable difference should be obvious even without a/b testing. when i upgraded from an old avr to one of the new ones with auto-eq, the difference that eq system made was HUGE. there was no question it was an improvement. that was money well spent.

on the other hand, i recently replaced my rear bookshelf speakers with some cheapy in ceiling speakers from monoprice. obviously this was done for aesthetics not performance, and i have not done an a/b comparison(because i don't really want to prove the bookshelf speakers sound better, haha) but i did not notice a difference when making this switch. that would have been money 'wasted' if it was done for performance reasons.

there are still a lot of things that are major upgrades, and worth doing. if you've gotten to such a high level that only a/b testing can show the small improvements, it's a lot harder to justify those expenses. and we all know, there's probably a MUCH higher cost to get that last 1-2% than there is to get 98% of the way there. at that point you shouldn't be doing an upgrade because you're unsatisfied with the current system, but because it's a hobby and you enjoy the tinkering.
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post #49 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 01:41 PM
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See above. 56 feet. If the wavelength is longer than your space, you can't hear it.

That doesn't make any sense, that would mean (effectively) that you couldn't hear anything below maybe 10-15kHz with sealed headphones (size of the "space" is approximately an inch.
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post #50 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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That doesn't make any sense, that would mean (effectively) that you couldn't hear anything below maybe 10-15kHz with sealed headphones (size of the "space" is approximately an inch.

Good point. No matter how slow it is vibrating, it should move your ear drum at the same speed. What's the error in that logic?

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post #51 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 02:55 PM
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See above. 56 feet. If the wavelength is longer than your space, you can't hear it.

The A/B comments is intended to be though provoking. I've done it many times and heard and seen differences that I thought were significant. But, the truth is, I didn't have to do an A/B. I could tell when there were "significant" differences, Especially over time. It was always fun being surprised by what I saw as improvements. They dribbled out. But what I'm saying is that if you have to go back and forth and wonder if there is a difference, and then wonder if it is better or worse, then you might be "trying to pick knat-$#! out of pepper" as Walter Matthau said in JFK.

The problem with small rooms is not that you can't hear it. The problem is reflections. Sound bouncing around all over the place. Because of this, you can gets lots of peaks and nulls. The nulls are from cancelation of the bass, where the wave hits the wall and returns. Using multiple subs helps with reducing the amount and size of the nulls. In other words it evens out the bass. It is generally considered that you can't hear below 20Hz, but even that is not necessarily true. The higher the SPL is the lower you can hear.

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post #52 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 04:11 PM
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There are so many factors with bass. First you need tons of bass absorbers. The waves bouncing off the rear really screw up the midrange. the physical operation of the midrange drivers themselves. second, if you really have real 20hz generated in a room long enough to support the wave, you feel it, you don't hear it. what you are talking about is where you sit in relation to the wave null and peaks of each bass frequency. you can smooth this out with multiple subs but there are formulas that need to be followed with to room placement. Shoving multiple subs into a room in the corners etc is a joke and so is attempting to accurately reproduce and hear the lower frequencies.in a room that won't support the frequency.

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post #53 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 05:16 PM
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you start the process by placing the first sub in the room and listening from where the sub will eventually be located, usually in a corner. you must move the sun around near say the first row and listen for the smoothest response. When you find it you measure to the front wall and that distance becomes the distance the second sub is located from the first subs installed location.

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post #54 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 05:32 PM
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you start the process by placing the first sub in the room and listening from where the sub will eventually be located, usually in a corner. you must move the sun around near say the first row and listen for the smoothest response. When you find it you measure to the front wall and that distance becomes the distance the second sub is located from the first subs installed location.

Ahh, the classic sub crawl. Alternatively, I've heard you can place the sub where you normally sit and move around the room until you hear the smoothest response. That's where you'd place the sub.

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post #55 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 05:45 PM
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There are so many factors with bass. First you need tons of bass absorbers. The waves bouncing off the rear really screw up the midrange. the physical operation of the midrange drivers themselves. second, if you really have real 20hz generated in a room long enough to support the wave, you feel it, you don't hear it. what you are talking about is where you sit in relation to the wave null and peaks of each bass frequency. you can smooth this out with multiple subs but there are formulas that need to be followed with to room placement. Shoving multiple subs into a room in the corners etc is a joke and so is attempting to accurately reproduce and hear the lower frequencies.in a room that won't support the frequency.


The Harman-Todd Welti white paper is considered the authority on subwoofer placement. See page 21 and you will see four subs, one located in each corner is one of the top three subwoofer locations for practical sub placement. It is not third, the three separate approaches are not ranked 1, 2 and 3. http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf Also see page 28 conclusion for best subwoofer locations. Note that they show three methods as best and four subs, one in each corner is one of the top choices.

I never said anything about trying to hear the lower frequencies in a room. I was just responding to the comment that anything below 20hz can't be heard. Humans have a maximum aural range that begins as low as 12 Hz under ideal laboratory conditions.
Jump up ^ Olson, Harry F. (1967). Music, Physics and Engineering. Dover Publications. p. 249. ISBN 0-486-21769-8.

All bass problem are a direct result of reflections.

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post #56 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Ahh, the classic sub crawl. Alternatively, I've heard you can place the sub where you normally sit and move around the room until you hear the smoothest response. That's where you'd place the sub.

The classic sub crawl method is to place the sub in the prime listening position. Then crawl around the floor with a SPL meter and find the location with the strongest bass response. Then move the sub to that location.From there , there are many variations for second and third sub location.

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post #57 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 07:09 PM
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This rant was triggered by seeing the 4K thread. And really, 9 speaker surround and twin subs? How much crap do they think we are going to fall for? You have to be able to walk through the room don't you?

Just let me say, I have spent a fortune on source material. 45's, LP albums, cassette tapes, quadraphonic albums, direct-to-disc albums, Beta tapes, VHS tapes, compact discs, Laserdiscs, DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-ray. And now you want me to buy another format? For a not so cheap thrill? And buy the same things over again? PuuuLEEEASE!

I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to have to disagree to an extent. I think your source assumption is wrong. While I fell for upgrading source including LD, DVD, and BD, I stopped at some point and didn't replace everything. There are some eye-candy movies that I think are worth upgrading to BD, most are not, particularly comedies and dramas. And there are older source that don't gain much either including B&W. On the other hand, I derive a lot of pleasure from some movies from their visual style, so I'd prefer to own these in the highest resolution obtainable that reproduces what was shot. As such, most of those new titles deserve at least BD source. I certainly enjoy watching 5th Element more than once and on BD, not DVD. There are others and they tend to be SciFi, but not just.

As for 4K, I'm all-in as I think the Sony is a BIG improvement over any 1080p that I've owned. And I didn't pay anywhere near MSRP either, so that helped. It does a great job with my current BD collection and I will most likely only purchase new titles that I want to rewatch and own in 4K. I won't be spending money on replacing any BDs, especially if they weren't shot digitally with a 4K+ camera. I'm looking toward future movie releases for my 4K habit and will have to be eye-candy and worth the extra cost. I need justification now, not just because it's out on a new format. Been there, done that, and learned.

As for upgrading hardware, this is actually easy to justify. You buy high-quality speakers, screen, amps, and seating and you're set for a long time. With separates, you only need to consider upgrading the processor and even then, you can hold off for a long time. I'm still running with my MC-1 with 8ch analog bypass and still have no pressing need to upgrade, although that time is coming soon once HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 is out in a good processor or AVR. That just leaves the source player and projector. The player drops quickly in price and lasta a long time with backward compatibility. So, that really just leaves updating the projector. I've done that more than some and less than others. I skipped 720p and pretty much stuck with JVC or Sony along the way. Now that I own the Sony 4K projector, I'm getting one of, if not the best BD picture available and am ready for 4K from their player and hopefully future optical platter. I'll only purchase the source if it's a very noticeable improvement over BD and probably a new title that I don't already own. I the beauty is that I don't see anything on the horizon that requires my to consider replacing this projector for years. Only a new light source that drastically improves brightness and CR will make me even consider another upgrade at this point. For now, I'm just enjoying the show. Besides, you can't take the money with you, so spoil yourself now that you're older if you can afford it.
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post #58 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 07:35 PM
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Mike. When I have time I will dissect the how the Harmon paper adds to the literature but does not consider several relevant factors. take for example the room dimensions with length and width multiples of 4. The issue is smoothing the response for nulls and peaks and how many subs are necessary to do this to an acceptable level. The issue is not reflections since these can be dealt with and should be dealt with by bass absorbers. reflects are are problem at much higher frequencies than say 80 cycles, the highest a sub should be required to produce except in the case of multiple small drivers to produce the bass.

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post #59 of 106 Old 03-19-2014, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Mike. When I have time I will dissect the how the Harmon paper adds to the literature but does not consider several relevant factors. take for example the room dimensions with length and width multiples of 4. The issue is smoothing the response for nulls and peaks and how many subs are necessary to do this to an acceptable level. The issue is not reflections since these can be dealt with and should be dealt with by bass absorbers. reflects are are problem at much higher frequencies than say 80 cycles, the highest a sub should be required to produce except in the case of multiple small drivers to produce the bass.

Multiple subs for smoothing bass response does not have anything to do with reflections. Never said it did. Reflections very much cause problems below 80hz. The sound wave of low bass (80hz and down) coming off the back wall cancels out the forward wave. As you know, where this occurs is based on the wavelength, forward distance traveled and distance from the back wall where the forward peak meets the trough of the wave off the back. This usually occurs 1/4 wave length off the wall. The same thing happens at the side walls, floor and ceiling.

You are talking about the golden room ratio studies (Louden, Bolt and others) performed in the 60's and 70's. Keith Yates, work has shown that what is called the golden room ratio is not valid. It is based on assumptions that are not there for most dedicated rooms. Here is an interview by Keith Yates talking about this. Start at the 2:50 mark. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1521459/how-low-can-you-go-with-keith-yates


Reflections are what cause all room problems. This is not my opinion. This is a fact. Here is a quote by Ethan Winer:

"Some boundaries have stronger peaks and nulls than others, due to multiple reflected waves coming from different directions and combining in the air. In fact, all acoustic problems in all rooms are caused by reflections. Because the peaks and nulls in small rooms occur at regularly spaced frequency intervals, the net result can be considered a type of comb filter."

I agree that bass traps can help in any room, but you are not going to absorb anything very deep, because you would need bass traps that are over 6' deep. Most bass traps work from 80hz and up, at best.
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post #60 of 106 Old 03-20-2014, 08:21 AM
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....because you would need bass traps that are over 6' deep

You are absolutely right and someone here did that. It was very stark what it do for that response.

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