Is one "ooooh" "aaaah" moment worth all this "upgrading"? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > Is one "ooooh" "aaaah" moment worth all this "upgrading"?
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 10:20 AM 03-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

You are absolutely right and someone here did that. It was very stark what it do for that response.

A few people have done this. One guy, just to test, went out and bought a bunch of fiberglass insulation and stacked it two packages deep on his back wall. smile.gif

Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 10:22 AM 03-20-2014
Upgrading has been great for me, as I went from an old DLP display to a Sony HW 55ES. The resolution quadrupled, the quality is maybe an order of magnitude better. To put it another way, we went from not wanting to watch movies downstairs to enjoying 3D that surpasses going out to a theater. There are those in the AV hobby who love to spend money on the latest tweaks, then do non-blinded A/B to see if they can detect a difference. Audiophiles are probably the worst, there is no better demonstration of the BS of subjective listening tests than "Stereophile" magazine. After reading complete rubbish reviews of expensive tweaks, I came up with my "Two beer rule". It states that any improvement in sound quality that disappears after two beers is irrelevant. That's why I still run marine grade 12 gauge wire to my Watt Puppies rather than Transparent crap.

My room is 21'x14', and I don't see me upgrading beyond my current 4.1 system. I'm done until and unless 4K matures and if it will be a clear improvement in my room with my screen at my viewing distance. No multiple subs, no 11 speaker surrounds, thank you. Whether listening to 2 channel audio or watching a high quality BD, I get that "oooh" and "aaah" feeling every time.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 10:32 AM 03-20-2014
Its a little like getting a new better girl friend. You really enjoyed screwing around with and playing with her (the old projector) and then it is time for a new one. You want and can afford more. You find a good new owner for the old one who will really enjoy her maybe even more than you did and you get a new better one. Maybe you can even afford and score a trophy one like the Sony VPL-vw1000ES. And then everything you try is upscaled by a factor of 4 or more or, if 4K, is displayed native. NATIVE. we are talking trophy material here (hopefully) and you can watch it all with soft lights on. You can lean back and watch her warm up. After a little warm up, its converged and focused on delivering to you content that you want, desire, and need. And the screwing around with is all new. You do all your old stuff and then all the new stuff that she (the projector) brings with her and enjoy new formats.Jjust sayin. smile.gif
Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 11:14 AM 03-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Its a little like getting a new better girl friend. You really enjoyed screwing around with and playing with her (the old projector) and then it is time for a new one. You want and can afford more. You find a good new owner for the old one who will really enjoy her maybe even more than you did and you get a new better one. Maybe you can even afford and score a trophy one like the Sony VPL-vw1000ES. And then everything you try is upscaled by a factor of 4 or more or, if 4K, is displayed native. NATIVE. we are talking trophy material here (hopefully) and you can watch it all with soft lights on. You can lean back and watch her warm up. After a little warm up, its converged and focused on delivering to you content that you want, desire, and need. And the screwing around with is all new. You do all your old stuff and then all the new stuff that she (the projector) brings with her and enjoy new formats.Jjust sayin. smile.gif

Ah, yes, Mark. But is your new girlfriend better than the old one after two beers? How about after a bit of bourbon?
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 11:31 AM 03-20-2014
I have been married for about 35 years now. I am just sayin. If its a trophy like my sony VPL-vw1000ES it doesn't matter how many beers, bourbons, or cigars. I still ooh and ahh, smile like a fecal eater whatever, and everybody who sees her says I bet she can really perform. Being a humanitarian I let them watch but don't let them touch. I say get your own.
d.j.'s Avatar d.j. 12:16 PM 03-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

See above. 56 feet. If the wavelength is longer than your space, you can't hear it.

The A/B comments is intended to be though provoking. I've done it many times and heard and seen differences that I thought were significant. But, the truth is, I didn't have to do an A/B. I could tell when there were "significant" differences, Especially over time. It was always fun being surprised by what I saw as improvements. They dribbled out. But what I'm saying is that if you have to go back and forth and wonder if there is a difference, and then wonder if it is better or worse, then you might be "trying to pick knat-$#! out of pepper" as Walter Matthau said in JFK.


Yes you can, but just not the full peak of the wave ( depending on your room length - arround 1/4 length for full peak )

If that teori was true, no one would hear bass in a car wink.gif


dj
Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 12:19 PM 03-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I have been married for about 35 years now. I am just sayin. If its a trophy like my sony VPL-vw1000ES it doesn't matter how many beers, bourbons, or cigars. I still ooh and ahh, smile like a fecal eater whatever, and everybody who sees her says I bet she can really perform. Being a humanitarian I let them watch but don't let them touch. I say get your own.

I completely understand. Thirty six years in June for me. Pride in ownership is a separate issue, and in no way relates to performance value or the cost of incremental improvements once a certain level of quality is attained. There is a point of diminishing returns in all areas of endeavor, everybody allocates resources to get the best bang for their dollars. Except guys who have more dollars than sense, of course, for whom how much they spend is a point of honor. For me, I look at the five or ten year picture. Projectors depreciate like crazy, speakers, for instance, not so much. When we were looking to upgrade our display, we considered the Sony 600ES, but at $16K for an immature technology, in my room, with my screen size limited to 100" diagonal and a viewing distance of 11', it just didn't make sense. The 55ES, at less than 1/4 the price, is very satisfying. I figure in 5-10 years 4K will be more prevalent, better and cheaper, so perhaps an upgrade will be warranted. I don't foresee ever having to upgrade the audio side of things.

Talk about oooh and aaah, you should see my grouse guns.smile.gif
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 12:30 PM 03-20-2014
By looking at your picture, JHouse, I think I'm quite a bit older. Maybe because of this I find expensive cars boring, etc., (and I grew up in Miss. and did plenty of hunting in my youth, and guns etc.hold no special attraction). I must say that HT has been an extremely fun hobby, in putting it all together and also in enjoying the result. Yes, $15K for a projector may seem expensive, even for those that can readily afford it, but if you keep it even 5 yrs and then throw it in the trash, it is a rather modest cost/yr outlay.

Different people of course find pleasure in different hobbies, as one should expect.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 10:23 PM 03-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Yes you can, but just not the full peak of the wave ( depending on your room length - arround 1/4 length for full peak )

If that teori was true, no one would hear bass in a car wink.gif


dj


No you can not and will not hear what a 20HZ full wave sounds and feels like. yes. Of course you will hear and feel something but it will not be a 20 hz note.
stanger89's Avatar stanger89 05:38 AM 03-21-2014
So you can't hear a Middle C (261Hz) on a set of sealed headphones, or in ear monitors? Or basically any human vocal note?
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 07:55 AM 03-21-2014
Of course you can. and you can hear a 20 cycle note two with a pair of ear phones that has a frequency response of some output at 20hz. just don't feel it though, do ya? Have you ever been in say a cathedral with a pipe organ with a 20 hz stop or even a lower one? sounds just like listening on a pair of head phones? Right. But you can hear it on a pair of ear phones. just a different sound..
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 09:00 AM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Of course you can. and you can hear a 20 cycle note two with a pair of ear phones that has a frequency response of some output at 20hz. just don't feel it though, do ya? Have you ever been in say a cathedral with a pipe organ with a 20 hz stop or even a lower one? sounds just like listening on a pair of head phones? Right. But you can hear it on a pair of ear phones. just a different sound..

Isn't the difference this, one is vibrating your ear at lets say 80db. The other (organ) is vibrating the structure and your ear. If you are 40 feet away from the source (organ) and still hearing at 80hz level, then the sound being produced by the organ is much louder, adding more vibration to the structure. I don't think playing a 20hz tone in a room that can't produce the full wave means you are hearing a different tone. I think it means you are either hearing it at a higher or lower sound pressure level, depending on where you are in the room. If you are standing where cancelation occurs, then lower. If standing where reinforcement occurs, then louder. In other words, you can't get true even bass response in a room, like you can outside. Outside the sound wave just passes by you and there is no cancelation or reinforcement of the wave.
Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 11:44 AM 03-21-2014
It seems bass is the most difficult frequency range to reproduce. There's not much music below 30Hz, so once again we're looking at large costs, financial, space, aesthetics, to go lower. My WATT Puppies reach down to 28HZ. Not sure what my M&K V125 sub puts out, the specs say 20Hz-125Hz +/-3dB . The question is, how low should we go before it's not worth it anymore?
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 12:18 PM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post

It seems bass is the most difficult frequency range to reproduce. There's not much music below 30Hz, so once again we're looking at large costs, financial, space, aesthetics, to go lower. My WATT Puppies reach down to 28HZ. Not sure what my M&K V125 sub puts out, the specs say 20Hz-125Hz +/-3dB . The question is, how low should we go before it's not worth it anymore?

After you are satisfied with your 20 to 20K, then it makes sense to look at going lower. That is what I did and I liked what I experienced, so pushed to be able to go even lower with more SPL.
d.j.'s Avatar d.j. 04:44 PM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No you can not and will not hear what a 20HZ full wave sounds and feels like. yes. Of course you will hear and feel something but it will not be a 20 hz note.


Mark, of course you can hear some of the 20 hz wave , but nobody talked about a full wave 20 hz sound - that is dependend on the lenght off the room, but you will still hear ( if you hearing can go that low wink.gif ) some off the 20 hz wave, just not the full sweep - if you got a 1/4 off the wave lenght, in room lenght, you will hear ( and feel ) the full positive ( or negative - depending on the phase ) soundwave top / buttom .at the end off the room and further into the room, some lesser amplitude of the sine curve.

Mark please put on a tone generator to your sub, let it make a 20 hz tone and tell we, that you dont hear the tone ( if your ears still is able of it offcourse - mine cant anymore, ) or just test at say 40 hz instedt - same deal, but just easyer to hear ( and because of the lesser wavelengt, you can hear more of the wavvelenght.

If you teori was true, nobody in a car would hear any deep bass, because off the very small room - and I cant think, that you mean, that the young guys in their cars is going for the midrange wink.gif


dj
d.j.'s Avatar d.j. 04:50 PM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Isn't the difference this, one is vibrating your ear at lets say 80db. The other (organ) is vibrating the structure and your ear. If you are 40 feet away from the source (organ) and still hearing at 80hz level, then the sound being produced by the organ is much louder, adding more vibration to the structure. I don't think playing a 20hz tone in a room that can't produce the full wave means you are hearing a different tone. I think it means you are either hearing it at a higher or lower sound pressure level, depending on where you are in the room. If you are standing where cancelation occurs, then lower. If standing where reinforcement occurs, then louder. In other words, you can't get true even bass response in a room, like you can outside. Outside the sound wave just passes by you and there is no cancelation or reinforcement of the wave.


Agree Mike

dj
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 04:52 PM 03-21-2014
I have done the set up in a ball room of a Wilson Wham (assisted David Wilson) and we used a signal generator and played each frequency from 40 to 20. At the low frequencies you start shaking the chandelers and ratteling the windows. There really is no sound to hear. You feel it. Power was not an issue. In a small room, you get bass doubling. you can hear the doubled frequencies.
Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 04:59 PM 03-21-2014
So I can hear and feel the ring drop in "Lord of the Rings". Guess I'm good.wink.gif
d.j.'s Avatar d.j. 05:10 PM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Of course you can. and you can hear a 20 cycle note two with a pair of ear phones that has a frequency response of some output at 20hz. just don't feel it though, do ya? Have you ever been in say a cathedral with a pipe organ with a 20 hz stop or even a lower one? sounds just like listening on a pair of head phones? Right. But you can hear it on a pair of ear phones. just a different sound..



I dont think so, but I have been at Bowers & Wilkins Steynings research establishment ( and in their anechoic chamber with a Matrix 801S3 as the only Company tongue.gif ) do that counts ?biggrin.gif
Charles R's Avatar Charles R 05:54 PM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

1. If you get hooked (that means it becomes an internalized goal that you can't shake) you will never be satisfied for more than a few minutes.

2. You will spend way too much time looking for flaws, than actually enjoying the content. Your enjoyment will be history during this phase.

3. Each "upgrade" (or maybe only a change that feels different and you are willing to presume it is an improvement because that's what you are after) will be less significant/impactful than the last.

4. Ultimately, rather than being in ecstasy, you will just forget to care (which is the best outcome anyway) and watch the show.

 

As I built my house with a dedicated room roughly a decade ago I have experienced the four phases. To a large degree I think each phase can be as enjoyable as the others. It's a matter of mindset.

 

1. The enjoyment is centered around the possibilities of what you can create.

2. The enjoyment is derived from becoming knowledgeable.

3. The enjoyment comes from putting your knowledge in practice.

4. The enjoyment is living with your level of desired performance based on experiencing the first three.

 

Some may remain at a number and never proceed to the next. It simply means that step is more enjoyable for them than the next.


Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 08:24 PM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I dont think so, but I have been at Bowers & Wilkins Steynings research establishment ( and in their anechoic chamber with a Matrix 801S3 as the only Company tongue.gif ) do that counts ?biggrin.gif

That must have been some time ago. I have a pair of those speakers, Ser #923 and 924. Wonderful speakers, I think they're about as good as it gets. They look like droids, but the sound is at least as good as my WATT Puppy V's.
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 08:26 PM 03-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I have done the set up in a ball room of a Wilson Wham (assisted David Wilson) and we used a signal generator and played each frequency from 40 to 20. At the low frequencies you start shaking the chandelers and ratteling the windows. There really is no sound to hear. You feel it. Power was not an issue. In a small room, you get bass doubling. you can hear the doubled frequencies.

Mark, you can hear 20hz and much lower. A lot of it comes down to SPL. Of course it also depends on the person's hearing.
http://www.rotarywoofer.com/howlowcanwehear.html
Highjinx's Avatar Highjinx 10:27 PM 03-21-2014
Play this back on your system!

d.j.'s Avatar d.j. 04:19 AM 03-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post

That must have been some time ago. I have a pair of those speakers, Ser #923 and 924. Wonderful speakers, I think they're about as good as it gets. They look like droids, but the sound is at least as good as my WATT Puppy V's.

Jon

You got me, Im older then I look biggrin.gif and yes, its was in the 1998 - we heard the "new" Natilius at the B&W´s presidents house with 2 x quatro amping by Krell ( sounded veery good, but not for the money it did cost )

I have 4 pairs of the little brother 802S3, bought the first set in 1994 smile.gif ( yours go a little lower and behaves, as if it has more energy to give of / harder to get to sound pressure - a very fine speaker for their time and still pretty good IMO )

Daddy´s nice little robots biggrin.gif


dj
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 08:43 AM 03-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Jon

You got me, Im older then I look biggrin.gif and yes, its was in the 1998 - we heard the "new" Natilius at the B&W´s presidents house with 2 x quatro amping by Krell ( sounded veery good, but not for the money it did cost )

I have 4 pairs of the little brother 802S3, bought the first set in 1994 smile.gif ( yours go a little lower and behaves, as if it has more energy to give of / harder to get to sound pressure - a very fine speaker for their time and still pretty good IMO )

Daddy´s nice little robots biggrin.gif


dj


I have a funny story about the then B&W President's wife. She ran into my wife at a CES and they had quite a discussion of older woman and how they were treated by the company's representatives. They no longer use reps in the US. It seems when she was with her husband, the reps would buy her drinks etc. If she was alone walking through a casino and she saw the same rep, the rep would pretend he didn't notice her. the incident arose because the people at the large B&W room ignored my wife when she walked in and my wife started fuming as we were dealers for two of the three brands owned by the V&W organization. The wife of the then President saw my wife fuming went over to her and started a discussion of how the President's wife was treated when her husband wasn't around.
d.j.'s Avatar d.j. 10:42 AM 03-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I have a funny story about the then B&W President's wife. She ran into my wife at a CES and they had quite a discussion of older woman and how they were treated by the company's representatives. They no longer use reps in the US. It seems when she was with her husband, the reps would buy her drinks etc. If she was alone walking through a casino and she saw the same rep, the rep would pretend he didn't notice her. the incident arose because the people at the large B&W room ignored my wife when she walked in and my wife started fuming as we were dealers for two of the three brands owned by the V&W organization. The wife of the then President saw my wife fuming went over to her and started a discussion of how the President's wife was treated when her husband wasn't around.


I think his name ( the president at that time ) was Robert Trunk or something ( I have almost forgotten redface.gif ) , a very nice guy and he had a very sweet and beautiful wife, but AFAIR he was more interested in the "opposite" sex.

Dickieson was there too, at that time smile.gif


dj
Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 10:51 AM 03-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Jon

You got me, Im older then I look biggrin.gif and yes, its was in the 1998 - we heard the "new" Natilius at the B&W´s presidents house with 2 x quatro amping by Krell ( sounded veery good, but not for the money it did cost )

I have 4 pairs of the little brother 802S3, bought the first set in 1994 smile.gif ( yours go a little lower and behaves, as if it has more energy to give of / harder to get to sound pressure - a very fine speaker for their time and still pretty good IMO )

Daddy´s nice little robots biggrin.gif


dj

The 801 Series 3's were used to master recordings, including at Abbey Road, so they really were "Reference" speakers. Still are, IMO. Mine were a demo pair, list price was $5500, I'm pretty sure I paid $3600.smile.gif The Nautilus jumped way up in price, I think to $12,000, and the current 801 Diamonds are around $24,000. My Series 3s really are amazing, because they go so low, they present a very balanced sound. My WATT Puppies are a bit more forward, but the sub fills in so they sound awesome, also. Truth be known, the 801's are probably a better HT speaker, but they are larger than the WP's. They wouldn't fit in the room unless I went to a smaller screen, which ain't going to happen.
d.j.'s Avatar d.j. 11:13 AM 03-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post

The 801 Series 3's were used to master recordings, including at Abbey Road, so they really were "Reference" speakers. Still are, IMO. Mine were a demo pair, list price was $5500, I'm pretty sure I paid $3600.smile.gif The Nautilus jumped way up in price, I think to $12,000, and the current 801 Diamonds are around $24,000. My Series 3s really are amazing, because they go so low, they present a very balanced sound. My WATT Puppies are a bit more forward, but the sub fills in so they sound awesome, also. Truth be known, the 801's are probably a better HT speaker, but they are larger than the WP's. They wouldn't fit in the room unless I went to a smaller screen, which ain't going to happen.


Thats why the AT screens is invented smile.gif
Jon Middleton's Avatar Jon Middleton 12:16 PM 03-22-2014
An AT screen would require moving the screen forward, which means replacing the crown molding, building a new valance, tearing up the ceiling and rewiring the lighting, in addition to buying a new screen and maybe compromising speaker placement. My next and only upgrade will be to finish the wainscoting.:

IMG_1618_zpse023715a.jpg
blazar's Avatar blazar 06:52 PM 03-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

Or: the four steps to true satisfaction.

I'm old. So I have had a lot of experience. First with "stereo" then with "home theater" and then with projectors. This is what I have learned:

1. If you get hooked (that means it becomes an internalized goal that you can't shake) you will never be satisfied for more than a few minutes.

2. You will spend way too much time looking for flaws, than actually enjoying the content. Your enjoyment will be history during this phase.

3. Each "upgrade" (or maybe only a change that feels different and you are willing to presume it is an improvement because that's what you are after) will be less significant/impactful than the last.

4. Ultimately, rather than being in ecstasy, you will just forget to care (which is the best outcome anyway) and watch the show.

This rant was triggered by seeing the 4K thread. And really, 9 speaker surround and twin subs? How much crap do they think we are going to fall for? You have to be able to walk through the room don't you?

Just let me say, I have spent a fortune on source material. 45's, LP albums, cassette tapes, quadraphonic albums, direct-to-disc albums, Beta tapes, VHS tapes, compact discs, Laserdiscs, DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-ray. And now you want me to buy another format? For a not so cheap thrill? And buy the same things over again? PuuuLEEEASE!

For better or worse, you get used to what you are watching. It usually starts feeling "right". Audio is the same way. I think your brain actually compensates and makes you see pretty much what you should. Like the inverted lens experiments. There are two ways to react. "Don't worry, be happy" or "I'm bored and unsatisfied, the grass surely must be greener in some other home theater."

I'm sure they will sucker a bunch of the young/well to do guys, whether knowledgeable addicts or just more money than sense types. Fine. That's capitalism. I'm all for it. Madison Avenue and all that. But this is just a little cautionary tale, for the more prudent among you.

There is a point of diminishing returns. And the more things you have going on in your life, the faster you get there. (That's a little something extra for perspective.)

So do what you want. Chase whatever Chimera you will. Have fun. But make sure you are actually having fun.


Of course this set of comment is true of anything the human race ever does. This is true of materialism in general. Philosophers, sociologists, psychiatrists, anthropologists... whatever, have noticed this issue about materialism throughout human history. On the other hand look what Steve Jobs says... "stay hungry". It is only through this inexplicable desire that technology is created and then deployed.

In the end, you may discover what sufficiently intelligent people already have: Free will itself is an illusion. I have no idea why I like what I like.
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