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-   -   Is one "ooooh" "aaaah" moment worth all this "upgrading"? (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1522989-one-ooooh-aaaah-moment-worth-all-upgrading.html)

JHouse 03-17-2014 01:01 PM

Or: the four steps to true satisfaction.

I'm old. So I have had a lot of experience. First with "stereo" then with "home theater" and then with projectors. This is what I have learned:

1. If you get hooked (that means it becomes an internalized goal that you can't shake) you will never be satisfied for more than a few minutes.

2. You will spend way too much time looking for flaws, than actually enjoying the content. Your enjoyment will be history during this phase.

3. Each "upgrade" (or maybe only a change that feels different and you are willing to presume it is an improvement because that's what you are after) will be less significant/impactful than the last.

4. Ultimately, rather than being in ecstasy, you will just forget to care (which is the best outcome anyway) and watch the show.

This rant was triggered by seeing the 4K thread. And really, 9 speaker surround and twin subs? How much crap do they think we are going to fall for? You have to be able to walk through the room don't you?

Just let me say, I have spent a fortune on source material. 45's, LP albums, cassette tapes, quadraphonic albums, direct-to-disc albums, Beta tapes, VHS tapes, compact discs, Laserdiscs, DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-ray. And now you want me to buy another format? For a not so cheap thrill? And buy the same things over again? PuuuLEEEASE!

For better or worse, you get used to what you are watching. It usually starts feeling "right". Audio is the same way. I think your brain actually compensates and makes you see pretty much what you should. Like the inverted lens experiments. There are two ways to react. "Don't worry, be happy" or "I'm bored and unsatisfied, the grass surely must be greener in some other home theater."

I'm sure they will sucker a bunch of the young/well to do guys, whether knowledgeable addicts or just more money than sense types. Fine. That's capitalism. I'm all for it. Madison Avenue and all that. But this is just a little cautionary tale, for the more prudent among you.

There is a point of diminishing returns. And the more things you have going on in your life, the faster you get there. (That's a little something extra for perspective.)

So do what you want. Chase whatever Chimera you will. Have fun. But make sure you are actually having fun.

conan48 03-17-2014 01:12 PM

True.

I seriously think people who post here too much have some kind of underlying mental disorder biggrin.gif

I question my own sanity, and am even considering not doing any kind of basement theatre in my new home.

JHouse 03-17-2014 01:19 PM

That short throw Epson did it for me. It's just too damn easy. Big and BRIGHT. $40K flat screen for $1,500. And I get to sit by the fire, play with the cat, cook, eat, surf the net on my tablet, socialize and still look at a great big HD image.

And everything I watch or listen to now is in the cloud (or stored on my DVR's). I have a TON of DVD's that I'll never watch again. So irritating.

dholmes54 03-17-2014 01:20 PM

You make a very good point,Jhouse Im also sick of all the upgrades & what ever else the industry wants you to do.It took them for ever to get HDMI & blu-ray to work correctly,they should be making sure current hardware & software work before they come out with new things.But we dont have to buy just be happy with what you have.

R Harkness 03-17-2014 01:36 PM

I spent a long time as an audiophile so I certainly know "the sickness." I did find the constant scrutiny worse in the audio domain than the home theater hobby. By necessity
my home theater took over my 2 channel audio room which cut down on some of my options for 2 channel listening (though I still have 2 channel gear I love). A couple
years after the home theater was done, I'd paired down from having about 6 different pairs of high end speakers on my house to 3. I'm getting rid of another soon since
I almost never use them.

As far as home theater, I do get upgraditus in one form: if I happen to be working a job that gives me a bunch of play-money left over I look at what might be available
in terms of an upgrade and if it's compelling I go for it. Otherwise, I sit happily with what I've got.

Far from being irritated or disappointed, the last 4 years of having my home theater have been extremely satisfying. Easily the best tech-lifestyle project I've ever done.
I enjoy it every single day, either listening to music or watching a movie and I feel as giddy about it as I did the first day.
As discussed earlier in the thread, part of this is due to the room being on the main floor and easily accessible, and bright and comfortable during the day.

Two other things: I don't go in for blaming industries for updgrades. They sell what people want; if we didn't want it, we wouldn't buy it, they wouldn't sell it. Generally, you don't "have"
to upgrade if you don't want to. I'm just glad that progress is such that the choice is usually there if we want it. I've got nothing against progress.

Second: It's still a bit weird to me how many people talk of needing lights on or "it's not social" or people "won't like the experience." I have tons of family and friends over all the time
for movies and sports and everyone likes the lights off best. And it's as social as it would be with the lights on. It's not like with the lights off we are watching the UFC in stone-faced silence
instead of screaming at the screen (as usual).

mark haflich 03-17-2014 01:59 PM

I have a detailed analogy here but I will let you guys figure it out. A few hints.Iits like a 10 that you just met saying will you drive me to your place or do you want me to drive us? You can take it from there.

JHouse 03-17-2014 02:05 PM

That's over my head. BTW, this might be the first time I ever noticed that R. Harkness and mark haflich weren't one person. biggrin.gif

Elix 03-17-2014 03:18 PM

This first post must be at the top of this forum at all times. As a reminder and a warning. I remember the time when I was floored by my first FullHD LCD monitor. 24" monitor felt like a cinema at home after 17" CRT monitor. Then it didn't cut anymore. Then I was floored by a 42" Panasonic GT20 plasma. I thought I won't ever need to go to the cinema. Then all of a sudden it didn't cut anymore. I went for a projector setup. Now... With each upgrade I feel like I'm going the wrong way. I just want to stop and enjoy what I have already. I want to be able to enjoy small things like I could back then.

R Harkness 03-17-2014 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

That's over my head. BTW, this might be the first time I ever noticed that R. Harkness and mark haflich weren't one person. biggrin.gif

I'd love a good chuckle but I'm not in on that joke and can't figure out the connection.

JHouse 03-17-2014 04:25 PM

If you are talking about my comment, I saw those two names as the same (obviously not studying much) because they appeared to me to be smart/thoughtful/experienced/knowledgeable guys, and with the names having the same cadence and rough appearance, I never differentiated the two. Just goes to show how much attention I pay to detail. wink.gif

But if you are talking about Haflich's joke, I'm with you.

Craig Peer 03-17-2014 06:05 PM

Quote:
This rant was triggered by seeing the 4K thread. And really, 9 speaker surround and twin subs? How much crap do they think we are going to fall for? You have to be able to walk through the room don't you?

I went from 7.1 to 11.2 last year and I love it! It isn't taking up any more floor space either. But only because I hid one sub behind my wife's seat! eek.gif I can wait and see regarding 4K - 1080p projectors and Blu Rays are pretty much a mature format - I can buy Blu Rays for around the same price as renting them sometimes. And many sure look outstanding!

fierce_gt 03-17-2014 06:06 PM

I think this is why I love this hobby though. it doesn't have to be about the hardware, it can be about the software. that is, once I've got a pretty good theatre, I don't NEED to do constant upgrades, because I can get that 'ooh' and 'awe' moment from watching new blockbusters. sure, I still want to upgrade to 9.2, and sure I want a new screen with less texture, and sure I want a larger room, and sure i'll want to upgrade all of that 3 weeks after I finally do. but, in the mean time, it's not like I'm watching the same copy of 2001 over and over waiting for new gear to make it exciting again. every movie I watch, even on the gear I've gotten used to, can be exciting. to be honest, I'm finding fewer and fewer things getting me excited to upgrade, so in a weird way I'm kind of hoping for something to make all my equipment feel obsolete... haha.

like anything, a good balance is always best

Romans828 03-17-2014 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post


I went from 7.1 to 11.2 last year and I love it! It isn't taking up any more floor space either. But only because I hid one sub behind my wife's seat! eek.gif I can wait and see regarding 4K - 1080p projectors and Blu Rays are pretty much a mature format - I can buy Blu Rays for around the same price as renting them sometimes. And many sure look outstanding!

What are the major differences that you notice with 11.2? What sound is directed to those high and wide speakers from a 5.1 or 7.1 Blu-ray?

 

EDIT....oops....probably the wrong forum for this question.


JHouse 03-17-2014 06:41 PM

I'm really not trying to be a troll. If anything, I think the takeaway is do a healthy amount of homework and stretch to get something that will really do the job. Then be happy (that's the trick).

stanger89 03-17-2014 06:50 PM

I want to start by saying the whole point of this forum, and the hobby is to find what makes you happy. Now that said, let me be a little harsh.

IMO this opening post is just as over the top, or misguided as the line of thinking you're arguing against (audiophile tweaks, upgrade for upgrade's sake, etc).

The line of thinking in the OP, had it taken hold a couple of decades ago would have left us with with 480i (240i?) composite video with stereo audio on tapes that had to be rewound, and that wore out each time you used them. We'd have picture quality that was good enough only for TVs under 30" and viewed from distances of something like 10 feet. I don't see how anyone could argue that we'd be "better off" in that situation. Of course that's assuming we even made it that far, without trying to improve things would we have stopped with film, talkies, black and white silent films? Before that? Yeah I'm being over-dramatic, but so is the OP IMO.

That said I do understand some of the OP, that at some point you just have to sit back and enjoy. I've been doing that with my current system for close to 5 years now. I'd like to think I've found a good balance, at least for me. I'm not naive enough to think that my system is the pinnacle of performance, I know enough to know where the limitations of my system are, and more importantly what limitations of my system I'd like to fix. But I've also come to the point where when I sit down to watch something I can just enjoy it.

I'm looking forward to my next upgrade, but I'm still waiting for the thing that will make me jump. I think 4K is that think, but not just for the sake of upgrading. I can see the limitations of 1080p in my system (the occasional jaggie for example), and I look forward to higher bit depths (no more banding) and larger gamuts (what I see at the theater), and of course, I expect my next projector will have much greater contrast (better black level) and likely be brighter to support a larger AT screen.

But in the mean time I'll just sit back and enjoy.

danieledmunds 03-17-2014 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

The line of thinking in the OP, had it taken hold a couple of decades ago would have left us with with 480i (240i?) composite video with stereo audio on tapes that had to be rewound, and that wore out each time you used them. We'd have picture quality that was good enough only for TVs under 30" and viewed from distances of something like 10 feet. I don't see how anyone could argue that we'd be "better off" in that situation. Of course that's assuming we even made it that far, without trying to improve things would we have stopped with film, talkies, black and white silent films? Before that? Yeah I'm being over-dramatic, but so is the OP IMO.

There are a few advantages:
Those 480i movies would need to have really good scripts
I doubt the chemical peel would have been invented
You wouldn't have to buy your favourite movie 4 times in different formats
Laserdisc would be cool

Deja Vu 03-17-2014 08:52 PM

"They can't make you buy it if you don't want it."
Oh, yes they can!
That's marketing.
That's what a good sales pitch is all about.
Create a demand -- make you think you need it.
It happens every day on this forum.

JHouse 03-17-2014 09:01 PM

From the look of the timing, it looks like stranger89 took so long to compose he missed my post about the takeaway. stranger, how can you spend that much time given your post count. Though I don't have much room to talk. rolleyes.gif

mark haflich 03-17-2014 09:04 PM

I disagree. Nothing here is over the top. Its a fun thread because there is not that much to really talk about right now. smile.gif

HT is a hobby for most. Way beyond getting one set up and just using and enjoying it. And for many posting on AV Science Forum, a business that depends on maximizing the number of hits, so that ad revenues increase, is a hobby. Its like going to a cigar bar that has a smoking lounge. you ca n go there to buy cigars (get information0 or to go there to smoke and talk about what interests you, HT.

zombie10k 03-17-2014 09:08 PM

I'm not sure I understand the context of this conversation... biggrin.gif

tower-of-projectors.jpg


I have fun tinkering and watching, that's part of the hobby if you're into it. Look on the car forums or high end PC forums, people are always upgrading and trying out the latest toys. no one is obligated to keep upgrading.

Like all hobbies, I can see getting burnt out over the years. Eventually I will settle down to 3 projectors and call it a day. cool.gif

mark haflich 03-17-2014 09:13 PM

Profound. Its more like watching until you go blind.

NAIM101 03-17-2014 09:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

Or: the four steps to true satisfaction.

I'm old. So I have had a lot of experience. First with "stereo" then with "home theater" and then with projectors. This is what I have learned:

1. If you get hooked (that means it becomes an internalized goal that you can't shake) you will never be satisfied for more than a few minutes.

2. You will spend way too much time looking for flaws, than actually enjoying the content. Your enjoyment will be history during this phase.

3. Each "upgrade" (or maybe only a change that feels different and you are willing to presume it is an improvement because that's what you are after) will be less significant/impactful than the last.

4. Ultimately, rather than being in ecstasy, you will just forget to care (which is the best outcome anyway) and watch the show.

This rant was triggered by seeing the 4K thread. And really, 9 speaker surround and twin subs? How much crap do they think we are going to fall for? You have to be able to walk through the room don't you?

Just let me say, I have spent a fortune on source material. 45's, LP albums, cassette tapes, quadraphonic albums, direct-to-disc albums, Beta tapes, VHS tapes, compact discs, Laserdiscs, DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-ray. And now you want me to buy another format? For a not so cheap thrill? And buy the same things over again? PuuuLEEEASE!

For better or worse, you get used to what you are watching. It usually starts feeling "right". Audio is the same way. I think your brain actually compensates and makes you see pretty much what you should. Like the inverted lens experiments. There are two ways to react. "Don't worry, be happy" or "I'm bored and unsatisfied, the grass surely must be greener in some other home theater."

I'm sure they will sucker a bunch of the young/well to do guys, whether knowledgeable addicts or just more money than sense types. Fine. That's capitalism. I'm all for it. Madison Avenue and all that. But this is just a little cautionary tale, for the more prudent among you.

There is a point of diminishing returns. And the more things you have going on in your life, the faster you get there. (That's a little something extra for perspective.)

So do what you want. Chase whatever Chimera you will. Have fun. But make sure you are actually having fun.

LOL.Love the Title. Totally agree.

JHouse 03-17-2014 09:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'm not sure I understand the context of this conversation... biggrin.gif

tower-of-projectors.jpg


I have fun tinkering and watching, that's part of the hobby if you're into it. Look on the car forums or high end PC forums, people are always upgrading and trying out the latest toys cool.gif

I'm on those too! biggrin.gif

Mercedes AMG, Honda CBR, Android, Car Audio, Coffee, Wine, Watches, and then all the politics. Just looking.

That's the only thing that keeps me from buying AV crap.wink.gif

Craig Peer 03-17-2014 10:52 PM

Quote:
What are the major differences that you notice with 11.2? What sound is directed to those high and wide speakers from a 5.1 or 7.1 Blu-ray?

With NEO:X decoding on my Denon 4520, action / war/ Sci Fi movies have a much more enveloping front sound stage - IF you have the right room ( wide and tall works best - see my theater photos ).

Quote:
I'm really not trying to be a troll. If anything, I think the takeaway is do a healthy amount of homework and stretch to get something that will really do the job. Then be happy (that's the trick).

I completely agree. I will have had my Lumis for 5 years this May - I still love it ! I've only recently upgraded my speakers and receiver after 6 or 7 years. And my two electric screens. And painted my room dark grey / black.. And added a subwoofer. And added black carpet. But other than that I haven't done a thing to my theater for years!!rolleyes.gif

Romans828 03-18-2014 05:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post


With NEO:X decoding on my Denon 4520, action / war/ Sci Fi movies have a much more enveloping front sound stage - IF you have the right room ( wide and tall works best - see my theater photos ).
 

 

Cool...Some people on the forum seem to think that going beyond 7.2 is a waste...but the people that have it seem to love it.


Craig Peer 03-18-2014 09:45 AM

Quote:
Cool...Some people on the forum seem to think that going beyond 7.2 is a waste...but the people that have it seem to love it.

Going to 11.2 was an " ooooh aaaah " moment worth the upgrade. But I only do those every 5 years or so. My next " ooooh aaaah " moment is scheduled for 2020 ( unless something breaks before then ). smile.gif

Trepidati0n 03-18-2014 09:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

....and twin subs?

This probably the only thing in your post that I found completely off the mark. The numbers of subs is not the important part. What is important is producing the SPL you want down to what frequency in a specific location. Do the math and you figure out what you need. Otherwise with your argument is a single shipping container sized sub still okay as long as it is one sub? biggrin.gif

JHouse 03-18-2014 10:10 AM

Actually, I used to have two subs, and now just one, but the single is much larger, but so is the room. The thing that seems odd about having a ".2" system is that most all subs are internally powered and fed by line level signals, which are also mono, which I just split and sent to each sub. Having them "independently" fed seemed totally superfluous, especially since everything I ever learned told me that subs are unlocalizable (you can't tell where they are). So, being out of the game for a long time I'll ask: Are we doing actual stereo woofing now? Discrete and different signals? Why, if you can't tell where the sound is coming from?

Drexler 03-18-2014 10:20 AM

You're not doing stereo bass, but bass frequencies creates standing waves in rooms with nulls and peaks at different frequencies depending on the placement of the listeners and the subs (thus it cant even be solved by equalization for more than one specific location even if you have a fancy processor). Two subs at different positions will give a more even response curve, they will fill in each others blanks so to speak. Hence two subs are preferential to one.

JHouse 03-18-2014 10:35 AM

Wow, hadn't heard about that being a problem yet. So more is always better! biggrin.gif


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