Let's push for 2-chip consumer DLP to happen! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 04-21-2014, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I have found this thread on Texas Instruments' forum: Is there a reason nobody uses two dmds to boost contrast?
The posts are recent and it's getting TI's attention! I encourage everyone interested to register and express their opinion.
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post #2 of 28 Old 04-21-2014, 04:26 PM
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Zeiss has had one for years. It's designed for planetariums though.

http://www.zeiss.com/planetariums/en_us/products/products/velvet.html

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post #3 of 28 Old 04-21-2014, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it's been posted many times on these forums. But let it be here too as a testimony of what a 2-chip DLP can achieve.
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post #4 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 03:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I read this today and I see I was being too naive yesterday. smile.gif It's not like they (TI) didn't think of this before or don't see how this would drastically improve contrast. They must have other reasons to which they can't comment. TI is first and foremost a business... They have to think strategically. If they give us all they got at cheap prices they won't get away with this easily afterwards. So even if they decide to implement this design they won't give us Velvet-grade performance right away. Still they can start by presenting us a 100,000:1 native contrast ratio DLP and increase this number each year. smile.gif

I keep saying "they" but I should separate TI from projector manufacturers as they each follow their own goal. From TI's perspective this endeavor will boost sales greatly (everyone will grab these new projectors and each one of them will have 2 chips). From PJ manufacturers' standpoint they will have to each (or together o_O) make a strategic development plan like I said to bring gradual improvements every year like what they've been doing for eternity. In the end this will only increase DLP PJs market share and will leave us buyers happy. smile.gif
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post #5 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 09:02 AM
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Yeah, there's still room for PJ manufacturers to start with smaller numbers and the least expensive chips available at whatever resolution they need, while TI will see a doubling per-unit chip sales AND hopefully increase in overall DLP sales from the tech getting better contrast in the currently lacking $1,500-3,000 range. Both will get something they want and have a position to keep moving up from.

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post #6 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

So even if they decide to implement this design they won't give us Velvet-grade performance right away. Still they can start by presenting us a 100,000:1 native contrast ratio DLP and increase this number each year.

Why would TI decide to implement this? They aren't the ones developing light paths and manufacturing them. Sure, they've released a few white papers to give some understanding to engineers on what kinds of possibilities are available to them when designing a projector, but I don't see any reason why TI would have some kind of issue with a company trying to implement a set up like this. It would be a very high end projector that would separate itself enough from the cheaper single chips that it shouldn't hurt sales, just like 3 chip DLP projectors.

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post #7 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 10:28 AM
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Right, as the TI guy said in their forum, pj mfgr's are free to give it a go.

That said, if they thought there was low-hanging fruit that the pj mfgr's weren't seeing (which seems possible per the discussion at the TI forum), they could help things along with a reference design.

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post #8 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Noah, I'm glad you posted.
I just noticed something. Frank Xu wrote:
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Originally Posted by Frank Xu 
Any customer would like to have this design, we certainly will support it.
By customers he didn't mean us but PJ manufacturers. Now it's obvious that to get things started TI needs to rise this question to them. And it has to be a high ranking officer or something so he can be taken seriously. I hope Frank has some influence so he can give ideas to the right people.
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post #9 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 01:21 PM
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I've mentioned and explained the design and its trade-offs to a few projector companies over the phone, but I'm obviously limited as most everyone to who I can talk to. Still, the manager at the Benq callcenter used to work for TI and one of the folks I talked to mentioned (his boss came from TI) and he'd ask about it..not much, but it's something. I doubt having multiple people bringing the topic up to multiple companies could hurt. There's always the chance that you'll get someone with a little more influence or knowledge, or find a company that's a little more willing to chance a different design to pull ahead. Be polite, of course.

A reference design would be great. Something you can look at and plainly visualize how little is really needed to leap forward.
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post #10 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe the latest failure with LED light source implementation of certain projector company will force them to look in other direction. It certainly helps that people like Ftoast, Noah and that guy on TI forum are active on this matter. The more people are vocal the better.
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post #11 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 01:42 PM
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To keep costs down they could even use a low cost single LCD panel. It wouldn't even have to be as high of a resolution. It becomes a zoned contrast system. So a cheap LCD panel with 100:1 contrast becomes a suprising multiplier for DLP. The guys that were behind the zoned inifinite contrast stuff that Dolby acquired were talking about this years ago when Darin and I visited them in Canada before Dolby bought them up.

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post #12 of 28 Old 04-22-2014, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, they could even use old obsolete inventory of DMD chips of HD and lesser resolution. That would still be a tremendous boost in static and dynamic (native) contrast. And projector manufacturers don't have to worry about their commercial cinema market. 3-chip DLPs would still be in demand due to much greater light efficiency.

Maybe we should prepare a petition to TI and manufacturers outlining all these advantages? smile.gif
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post #13 of 28 Old 04-23-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

By customers he didn't mean us but PJ manufacturers.

Yes, I know; the reference design would be to give them a nudge.

I'd think that Sim2 would be one to give this a go.



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Maybe the latest failure with LED light source implementation of certain projector company will force them to look in other direction.

I don't see the connection between improving CR and type of light source.
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To keep costs down they could even use a low cost single LCD panel. It wouldn't even have to be as high of a resolution. It becomes a zoned contrast system. So a cheap LCD panel with 100:1 contrast becomes a suprising multiplier for DLP.

For sure.

I believe there's a 50% polarization loss with LCD, but that's not as bad as I thought in light of the 32% loss of DMD.

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post #14 of 28 Old 04-23-2014, 05:16 PM
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You guys are so naive. TI develops the drivers, not the projector manufacturers. Sim2 might put their own input board into such a projector developed and manufactured by OEMer Atlas. None of this is going to happen. And none of you would buy such a Sim2 which I estimate would have a MSRP of at least $50K.

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post #15 of 28 Old 04-23-2014, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
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You guys are so naive. TI develops the drivers, not the projector manufacturers. Sim2 might put their own input board into such a projector developed and manufactured by OEMer Atlas. None of this is going to happen. And none of you would buy such a Sim2 which I estimate would have a MSRP of at least $50K.

Always the pessimist.... tongue.gif

I think people want TI to do a white paper to give engineers something to go off of. Sim2 first and then possibly the technology will trickle down to less high end manufacturers. This could very well revive DLP and make it a top tier display technology again. I'm sure both Runco and Sim2 are hurting as of late because of such stiff competition from Sony and JVC in regards to PQ at far lower prices. It would seem idiotic to just sit by stagnant hoping people by your products simply because they're ignorant to what else is out there (and better at lower prices).

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post #16 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You guys are so naive. TI develops the drivers, not the projector manufacturers. Sim2 might put their own input board into such a projector developed and manufactured by OEMer Atlas. None of this is going to happen. And none of you would buy such a Sim2 which I estimate would have a MSRP of at least $50K.


Do you think the TI drivers would cause the price to jump more than double? I wouldn't be in the market for anything close to 50K, I'm interested in the design because it could be built using the same crap parts as the budget DLPs. The design isn't new, the parts aren't new, and it can use cheapo parts to put another "0" or two on the business end of the native-contrast.

 

I want a DLP that makes 7000:1+ NATIVE on/off contrast, at full color, for under 2K. It can be dim, it can be big, and it can be made in China for all I care. Dim and big don't matter in a black room (which you'll need to appreciate good contrast anyway) and ALL the inexpensive stuff by EVERY manufacturer is already cutting every corner possible, I doubt it can get much worse.

 

Right now I don't believe there's a single DLP under 5K getting much over 3000:1 native CR, and that's embarrassing. If anyone has a link showing a DLP measuring over 3000:1 (native, not dynamic) I'd appreciate it.


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post #17 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Some Projection Design, Digital Projection, Barco, Sim2 machines and a few single units such as Sharp XV-Z20000, Marants VP-11S2, VP-15S1 have >3000:1 native contrast. Some even quote 7000:1+. Mitsubishi HC4000 was measured over 3000:1 too. But we're talking about adding at least two zero's to that number...
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post #18 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 07:47 AM
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Without knowing any of the details... perhaps TI doing what Intel did with their NUC line of computers would make sense. 

 

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/overview.html

 

My guess is Intel created them as proof of concept for companies such as Brix who came along and now sell their own (modified) version. The concept was so proven Intel now sells their own line. :) 

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post #19 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 07:49 AM
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I think Elix, hit the nail on the the head. The units that he mentioned above are steals on the used projector market and are excellent units. I have a few Projection Design units at home that fit that mold now. They use a dual iris, one in the projector body and one in the lens that get to those numbers with having the pumping of a dynamic system.
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post #20 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You guys are so naive. TI develops the drivers, not the projector manufacturers.smile.gif

So?

Electronics are cheap. If anything's holding this back it's the optical design, which as far as I can tell from the discussion at the TI forum (see Frank's last response to me) isn't that big of a deal, contrary to what I believed earlier.

But if that were so, I can't imagine why it hasn't been done to create pj's that equal or better JVC's in performance and price.

I'm quite mystified.

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post #21 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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One possibility is that they have plans to implement it at one point but that time still hasn't come. They plan to keep milking us as long as we're buying.
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post #22 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 05:33 PM
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One possibility is that they have plans to implement it at one point but that time still hasn't come. They plan to keep milking us as long as we're buying.
It feels like that's the case. That's a big part of the beauty of this, it isn't hard, new, or expensive..it's just that it's even easier to be complacent and stagnant. The positive side is it only takes one. One slightly more flexible manufacturer, willing to build it at a price that disrupts the competition. Then every DLP maker will have to either get on the wagon and offer a similar model, or sit and watch their sales slip due to their own idle-ness. And because it isn't hard, new, or expensive, that first company to pull the trigger could be anyone.

It would be amazingly cool if someone with serious soldering skills and patience could homebrew one of these out of a couple older models and bring it to one of the big shows.
"Step inside and look what a few hundred dollars worth of used stuff can do. The alignment isn't perfect and focus could be sharper, but just look at that contrast."
People could wonder between this and a new JVC or Sony booth and scratch their heads at the price difference. Word of mouth alone would be crazy.

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post #23 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 08:40 PM
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Someone needs to Kickstart this biggrin.gif

I'd pledge some money. Lets say 100 000.00 should cover it.
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post #24 of 28 Old 04-24-2014, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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It feels like that's the case. That's a big part of the beauty of this, it isn't hard, new, or expensive..it's just that it's even easier to be complacent and stagnant. The positive side is it only takes one. One slightly more flexible manufacturer, willing to build it at a price that disrupts the competition. Then every DLP maker will have to either get on the wagon and offer a similar model, or sit and watch their sales slip due to their own idle-ness. And because it isn't hard, new, or expensive, that first company to pull the trigger could be anyone.

It would be amazingly cool if someone with serious soldering skills and patience could homebrew one of these out of a couple older models and bring it to one of the big shows.
"Step inside and look what a few hundred dollars worth of used stuff can do. The alignment isn't perfect and focus could be sharper, but just look at that contrast."
People could wonder between this and a new JVC or Sony booth and scratch their heads at the price difference. Word of mouth alone would be crazy.

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Someone needs to Kickstart this biggrin.gif

I'd pledge some money. Lets say 100 000.00 should cover it.
You guys are tickling my nerves...
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post #25 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 06:21 AM
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The first 3D projector from Projectiondesign was called a "single lens, dual head stereoscopic projector" up to 3000:1 contrast - I often wondered if that meant 2 x DMD - it is now a discontinued product; http://www.projectiondesign.com/products/discontinued-products/f10-as3d
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post #26 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
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The first 3D projector from Projectiondesign was called a "single lens, dual head stereoscopic projector" up to 3000:1 contrast - I often wondered if that meant 2 x DMD - it is now a discontinued product; http://www.projectiondesign.com/products/discontinued-products/f10-as3d

If it was a dualDMD design, it wouldn't have been a single-lightpath. It would've been splitting the lightpath (like a Y) onto two separate DMDs and then recombining before exiting the lens. I think dual lenses are still needed for passive 3D (maybe internal polarization before the lightpath was re-combined), but it wouldn't have the contrast gaining ability in either configuration.

It needs to be a single-lightpath from one DMD to the other.

 

Neat find though.


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post #27 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
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One possibility is that they have plans to implement it at one point but that time still hasn't come. They plan to keep milking us as long as we're buying.

Anyone that thinks the manufacturer's are not together on this is naive. Profits come before people or products. Projector R&D is stagnant for the last 4 years. I remember when new models and innovations was the way to success. Laser and LED have been
right around the corner for how long now? Oh, I forgot can't upset the market place! I feel like we are going backwards.
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post #28 of 28 Old 04-25-2014, 11:10 AM
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Anyone that thinks the manufacturer's are not together on this is naive. Profits come before people or products. Projector R&D is stagnant for the last 4 years. I remember when new models and innovations was the way to success. Laser and LED have been
right around the corner for how long now? Oh, I forgot can't upset the market place! I feel like we are going backwards.

Looks to me that LED did not make it big due to light output. Just was never able to get the lumens that are wanted. Laser has it's own set of problems. Look at RED. They announced their laser projector. Even talked price, but failed to bring it to market. There was no industry pressure on RED. They just could not do it. Projector technology has not been stagnate for the last four years, except for DLP and that was strictly a money decision by Texas Instruments. In the last 4 years we have had JVC's E-shift and Sony's 4K projectors. Brightness has increased along with color accuracy. On top of that, due to improvements in manufacturing, prices have dropped a whole lot. Today for 3K you can get an image that you could only dream about a few years ago.

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