2K to 4K Upscaling? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 121 Old 04-25-2014, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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To start I'm a newbie...finishing my HT build and starting to think of projectors.

I like the notion of 4k but not the price. Is 2K to 4K Upscaling a viable option. I was looking at JVC DLA-RS48 D-ILA Projector. Any thoughts.
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post #2 of 121 Old 04-25-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mileofsmiles View Post

To start I'm a newbie...finishing my HT build and starting to think of projectors.

I like the notion of 4k but not the price. Is 2K to 4K Upscaling a viable option. I was looking at JVC DLA-RS48 D-ILA Projector. Any thoughts.

the e-shift 'faux-k' models from jvc are a good alternative until actual UHD content is plentiful.

but to clarify, it's not really upscaling to 4k, it's something different that has something to do with displaying two 1080p images, and shifting one of them I think half a pixel vertically and horizontally which tricks you in to seeing less pixel structure, mimicking a higher resolution image. still, I can't imaging getting more out of upscaling a 1080p image into UHD anyway, so until you're feeding UHD into the projector, I'd save my money.

aside from the resolution, the jvc's offer a fantastic image as well. great deep blacks and native on/off contrast. I would never sacrificing picture quality for pixel density, and thankfully in this case you don't have to. the LCOS projectors from sony are also a popular choice, especially if you need more brightness
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post #3 of 121 Old 04-25-2014, 02:27 PM
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The image does get upscaled to 4K. It's from there the JVC breaks down that 4K image into two 1080p images to be displayed sequentially. It overlaps the two images where one image is shifted a half pixel up and over to give you quadruple the resolution.
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post #4 of 121 Old 04-25-2014, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

the e-shift 'faux-k' models from jvc are a good alternative until actual UHD content is plentiful.

but to clarify, it's not really upscaling to 4k, it's something different that has something to do with displaying two 1080p images, and shifting one of them I think half a pixel vertically and horizontally which tricks you in to seeing less pixel structure, mimicking a higher resolution image. still, I can't imaging getting more out of upscaling a 1080p image into UHD anyway, so until you're feeding UHD into the projector, I'd save my money.

aside from the resolution, the jvc's offer a fantastic image as well. great deep blacks and native on/off contrast. I would never sacrificing picture quality for pixel density, and thankfully in this case you don't have to. the LCOS projectors from sony are also a popular choice, especially if you need more brightness

Where did you hear that it doesn't upscale to 4k? That's the whole point of eshift
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post #5 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 02:40 AM
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It cant upscale to 4K ( thats over 8 mill different pixels, which the JVC cant show ) it can take a 4K input , but "only" show its as a 2K image ( because of the 2K panel ) shifted with another 2K image - getting arround 4 mill pixels AFAIK - correct me if Im wrong !

So no "quadruple the resolution" only about the double !

I do think Fierce get it right smile.gif


dj
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post #6 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

It cant upscale to 4K ( thats over 8 mill different pixels, which the JVC cant show ) it can take a 4K input , but "only" show its as a 2K image ( because of the 2K panel ) shifted with another 2K image - getting arround 4 mill pixels AFAIK - correct me if Im wrong !

So no "quadruple the resolution" only about the double !

I do think Fierce get it right smile.gif


dj

Seegs and Blee are correct DJ, it takes an 2k signal and internally up-scales to 4k , then takes 2 samples of the 3840x2160 'canvas' each sample is 1920 x 1080 but from different locations of the 4k canvas as Seegs explained....and these two samples are flashed sequentially, building up the quasi 4K image......from the appropriate distance say 1.5+ screen widths...people would be hard pressed to tell the difference between this and a full 2k-4k upscale and displayed image. The key being from the appropriate distance

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post #7 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

It cant upscale to 4K ( thats over 8 mill different pixels, which the JVC cant show ) it can take a 4K input , but "only" show its as a 2K image ( because of the 2K panel ) shifted with another 2K image - getting arround 4 mill pixels AFAIK - correct me if Im wrong !

So no "quadruple the resolution" only about the double !

I do think Fierce get it right smile.gif


dj

JVC states it upscales to 4k
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post #8 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 06:47 AM
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post #9 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Where did you hear that it doesn't upscale to 4k? That's the whole point of eshift

1080p plus 1080p doesn't equal 4k.

call it a technicality, but e-shift is not exactly the same as 4k, and I think it's an important thing to understand.

jvc can STATE it upscales to 4k, but does it really? the processing needed to turn a 1080p signal into two 1080p signals shifted half a pixel is different than the processing needed to take a 1080p signal and display it on a 4k display. so even IF it does upconvert to 4k, it does so only to convert again to some quasi faux-k format only jvc uses.

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post #10 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I should clarify. My interest stems from seating position. My room is dedicated HT 19 x 13 from false wall. I was thinking of 120 screen.
Eyes would be at about 10 an 15 ft from screen.
So my interest in 4k would be for first row viewing.
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post #11 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

1080p plus 1080p doesn't equal 4k.

call it a technicality, but e-shift is not exactly the same as 4k, and I think it's an important thing to understand.

jvc can STATE it upscales to 4k, but does it really? the processing needed to turn a 1080p signal into two 1080p signals shifted half a pixel is different than the processing needed to take a 1080p signal and display it on a 4k display. so even IF it does upconvert to 4k, it does so only to convert again to some quasi faux-k format only jvc uses.

Upscaling and native is even more important to understand. There are many products that upscale to 4k now, but very few that are actually native or take 4k inputs. AVRs, Oppos, Lumagens, and eshift upscales to 4k. Of those, only JVC can take a 4k input.
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post #12 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 08:48 AM
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These JVC models has nothing to do with 4K as they are 1080p native projectors, but they can accept a 4K signal in and as Seegs108 says it makes it in to two 1080p pictres and so on. But it is still a 1080p projector with eshift. When the new 4K standard comes they can not show is as it is not HDCP 2.2 ready.cool.gif

And watching 4K native on these JVC is the same as watching 1080p it is almost no difference.

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post #13 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

These JVC models has nothing to do with 4K as they are 1080p native projectors, but they can accept a 4K signal in and as Seegs108 says it makes it in to two 1080p pictres and so on. But it is still a 1080p projector with eshift. When the new 4K standard comes they can not show is as it is not HDCP 2.2 ready.cool.gif

And watching 4K native on these JVC is the same as watching 1080p it is almost no difference.

Watching native 4k on a JVC is the same thing as watching it with eshift. Many have seen benefits from eshift on and off. You forget that the Sony 1000es was just a 4k upscaler for blu rays until the puck came out. That's why the eshift models and the Sony 1000es could compete with blu rays, because they both upscaled 2k to 4k
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post #14 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Upscaling and native is even more important to understand. There are many products that upscale to 4k now, but very few that are actually native or take 4k inputs. AVRs, Oppos, Lumagens, and eshift upscales to 4k. Of those, only JVC can take a 4k input.

but if the jvc can't DISPLAY a 4k image... ??

that's where I have issues. it's like saying a 720P display can accept 1080p inputs and upscales to 1080p. even if it did, it's not a 1080p display. the jvc is more complicated, cause it's not a standard resolution, it's not 1080p, but it's not 4k either.

what I would expect from a jvc with eshift is a smoother image, with far less pixel structure. great for sitting close to huge screens. but I would not expect to see more detail, and even when receiving a 4k input, there would be less detail on the eshift jvc than a native 4k projector.

1080P < eshift < 4k

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post #15 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 03:32 PM
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To put things in perspective to see the full benefit of true 4K with 20/20 vision one needs to view from .75 screen widths.......17 degrees horizontal.

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post #16 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

but if the jvc can't DISPLAY a 4k image... ??

that's where I have issues. it's like saying a 720P display can accept 1080p inputs and upscales to 1080p. even if it did, it's not a 1080p display. the jvc is more complicated, cause it's not a standard resolution, it's not 1080p, but it's not 4k either.

what I would expect from a jvc with eshift is a smoother image, with far less pixel structure. great for sitting close to huge screens. but I would not expect to see more detail, and even when receiving a 4k input, there would be less detail on the eshift jvc than a native 4k projector.

1080P < eshift < 4k

View a 4k and an e-shift projector with both a 2k>4k up scaled input and a native 4k input...there will be a viewing distance where it will be hard pressed to tell the difference. This distance needs to be compared with ones own intended viewing distance, in some cases an e-shift will give same/similar results for a fraction of the price.

At .75 screen widths the true 4K path will be optimal, at 1.25 screen widths 4k input with an E-shift should do quite well....perhaps indistinguishable from the prior?

The reviewers who take photos with the lens pressed up against the screen are really doing the consumer an injustice(marketing hoopla me thinks!)......no one views at those distances!........they need to do their observations from realistic viewing distances and state the viewing ratio/s.

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post #17 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

but if the jvc can't DISPLAY a 4k image... ??

that's where I have issues. it's like saying a 720P display can accept 1080p inputs and upscales to 1080p. even if it did, it's not a 1080p display. the jvc is more complicated, cause it's not a standard resolution, it's not 1080p, but it's not 4k either.

what I would expect from a jvc with eshift is a smoother image, with far less pixel structure. great for sitting close to huge screens. but I would not expect to see more detail, and even when receiving a 4k input, there would be less detail on the eshift jvc than a native 4k projector.

1080P < eshift < 4k

When displaying a 2k image upscaled to 4k, the jvc can do that. Displaying a native 4k image, is what the jvc can't do. Have you compared a 2k image on the jvc, then put the same image on with eshift?
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post #18 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

View a 4k and an e-shift projector with both a 2k>4k up scaled input and a native 4k input...there will be a viewing distance where it will be hard pressed to tell the difference. This distance needs to be compared with ones own intended viewing distance, in some cases an e-shift will give same/similar results for a fraction of the price.

At .75 screen widths the true 4K path will be optimal, at 1.25 screen widths 4k input with an E-shift should do quite well....perhaps indistinguishable from the prior?

The reviewers who take photos with the lens pressed up against the screen are really doing the consumer an injustice(marketing hoopla me thinks!)......no one views at those distances!........they need to do their observations from realistic viewing distances and state the viewing ratio/s.

I wouldn't argue any of that. but that's not an argument of whether or not eshift is 4k or not, it's an argument of whether or not 4k is a noticeable benefit.

and honestly, for me, and my current options, there's no way I'd buy a 4k projector, even if eshift weren't an option, I don't feel like I'm limited by 1080p yet, so the price jump from eshift to 4k is way beyond the land of diminishing returns. in fact going from the x35 to eshift is pretty deep into that category already.

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post #19 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

When displaying a 2k image upscaled to 4k, the jvc can do that. Displaying a native 4k image, is what the jvc can't do. Have you compared a 2k image on the jvc, then put the same image on with eshift?

I think we all know that eshift is an improvement from 'normal' 1080p. that was never the point. the question is how it compares to 'real' 4k. and whether or not it's fair to consider it 'like 4k' or 'enhanced 1080p'. to me the question is how the jvc's eshift displays a 1080p source vs how the sony 4k projectors display a 1080p source.

I would argue eshift is 'enhanced 1080p', even if it accepts a 4k signal, or temporary upconverts to a 4k signal before processing to the two 1080p images eshift actually displays.

again, I don't know if this is just me getting hung up on a technicality, but a 1080p panel can NOT display a 4k image. which means the end result, is NOT a 4k image. so even if the jvc upscales to 4k before further processing, I do not consider that upscaled to 4k. 1080p in --> 4k -->eshifted 1080p x2 is not the same as 1080p in --> 4k out

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post #20 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I wouldn't argue any of that. but that's not an argument of whether or not eshift is 4k or not, it's an argument of whether or not 4k is a noticeable benefit*.

and honestly, for me, and my current options, there's no way I'd buy a 4k projector, even if eshift weren't an option, I don't feel like I'm limited by 1080p yet, so the price jump from eshift to 4k is way beyond the land of diminishing returns. in fact going from the x35 to eshift is pretty deep into that category already.

This*....I think is viewing distance dependant.....that I believe is a key point.

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yeah, again, I agree with you. not sure what the issue is with that?

the only thing I've been saying is that eshift is not the same as upscaling to 4k

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post #22 of 121 Old 04-26-2014, 11:18 PM
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yeah, again, I agree with you. not sure what the issue is with that?

the only thing I've been saying is that eshift is not the same as upscaling to 4k

I agree, if one does a close up evaluation of an projected image of a 2K signal up scaled to 4k and displayed on a 4K projector vs 2K up scaled to 4K and displayed on an E-Shift projector, one will see more image information on the 4K projected image....but how much of a difference it makes from ones normal viewing distance needs to be evaluated.

In some cases the difference would not be noticeable....in other cases it would.

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post #23 of 121 Old 04-27-2014, 04:05 AM
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yeah, again, I agree with you. not sure what the issue is with that?

the only thing I've been saying is that eshift is not the same as upscaling to 4k

Eshift gives the resolution of 3840x2160, I just don't understand why you think it doesn't. What experience have you had with eshift or the 4K Sonys?
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This*....I think is viewing distance dependant.....that I believe is a key point.

It is quite easy to see the difference from 1080p to 4k 6m from a 100" screen so you are wrong about this. I have tested this many times and I have seen the resolution charts to proove what you are saying is correct, but it is not correct in the real world.cool.gif
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post #25 of 121 Old 04-27-2014, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Eshift gives the resolution of 3840x2160, I just don't understand why you think it doesn't. What experience have you had with eshift or the 4K Sonys?

This is true, but the JVC is still a 1080p projector.

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post #26 of 121 Old 04-27-2014, 07:06 AM
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It is quite easy to see the difference from 1080p to 4k 6m from a 100" screen so you are wrong about this. I have tested this many times and I have seen the resolution charts to proove what you are saying is correct, but it is not correct in the real world.cool.gif

100" and 6m away ? Then you will NEVER (!) see any differences between 2k and 4k ! Proven by myself for many times. I have watched a Sony VW1000 on a screen with 5m width. I sat about 6-7m away from it. THERE I could see a difference between 2k and 4k !

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post #27 of 121 Old 04-27-2014, 07:23 AM
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This is true, but the JVC is still a 1080p projector.

Its a 1080p projector that can only upscale by adding extra resolution. Its not native 4k but it does upscale 2k-4k. That's all I'm saying.
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post #28 of 121 Old 04-27-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

It is quite easy to see the difference from 1080p to 4k 6m from a 100" screen so you are wrong about this. I have tested this many times and I have seen the resolution charts to proove what you are saying is correct, but it is not correct in the real world.cool.gif

It depends on the source. Some 4k content look outstanding and the clarity and sharpness can be seen from normal viewing distances. The extra resolution might now be as pronounced. I'm waiting to actually see a movie look as good as the demo clips. Those clips are good for a couple of minutes. Until we get 4k BD with higher bits, rec 2020, and new releases, we are going to be looking at upscaled 2k or 4k that doesn't look good enough to jump on.
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post #29 of 121 Old 04-27-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

It depends on the source. Some 4k content look outstanding and the clarity and sharpness can be seen from normal viewing distances. The extra resolution might now be as pronounced. I'm waiting to actually see a movie look as good as the demo clips. Those clips are good for a couple of minutes. Until we get 4k BD with higher bits, rec 2020, and new releases, we are going to be looking at upscaled 2k or 4k that doesn't look good enough to jump on.

I am only talking about the resolution and you need a native 4K machine to do this comparison not a JVC as it is not a 4K native machine, you can use the JVC and turn off eshift as the 1080p projector and a VW600 or 1000/1100 as the 4K projector. I have done this many times with 1080p machine like the X500 and HW55 against the VW1000 and it is easy to see the resolution difference if you have a good source on both the 1080p and 4K machine. When we add H.265, wider colorspace and so on the difference will be even greater.

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post #30 of 121 Old 04-27-2014, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I am only talking about the resolution and you need a native 4K machine to do this comparison not a JVC as it is not a 4K native machine, you can use the JVC and turn off eshift as the 1080p projector and a VW600 or 1000/1100 as the 4K projector. I have done this many times with 1080p machine like the X500 and HW55 against the VW1000 and it is easy to see the resolution difference if you have a good source on both the 1080p and 4K machine. When we add H.265, wider colorspace and so on the difference will be even greater.

I'm sure you are seeing a difference in resolution with the 1000/1100 from the eshift with native sources. With 2k-4k upscaling, the better lens plays a bigger role than you are aware of, that's why it looks better to you. You think because the Sony looks better with 2k-4k upscaling, that eshift does not upscales to 4k. JVC clearly states it does.

I'm also confused why you quoted me saying that a native 4K projector is needed to do this comparison, not a JVC. What comparison? I never wrote anything about comparing anything native 4K sources. I think you are getting confused when I say upscaling, which is not the same as displaying 4K content natively.
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