Helping a friend decide between Wolf SDC-10, or JVC X700R/RS57 X500R/RS49 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 8 Old 05-02-2014, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Everyone,

I have been following projectors for a few years, and by no means am an expert, my friend is having a calibrator outfit his condo, and he is recommending to my friend a Wolf SDC-10 for ~8k, which I think is basically an older rebadged JVC, I think my friend would be better off with either of the new models and is getting suckered, but he doesn't believe me.


Here is what he is telling my friend:

"The Wolf Projectors are new models. The Contrast ratio’s are at the very least equal to that of the JVC.

There are many ways in which to measure contrast and on the consumer side they use methods that reap inaccurately large numbers.
Wolf is a pro-sumer / pro line. One testament to the inaccuracy of JVC’s numbers is that the Wolf REF-2000 which is $195,000.00 has a native contrast ratio of 10,000:1. This projector was formerly used for military flight simulation with a spare no expense design mandate.

Essentially there are 4 important elements to a projector, the JVC really only touches on one. The light Engine.
A Testament to this is the Seiki. This is a 4k flat panel television that has poorer picture quality then any of its equally priced 1080p competitors.
The reason for this is that they use an expensive 4k panel but invest in none of the drive electronics that actually create the image.
Check out this review http://www.cnet.com/products/seiki-se50uy04-4k-uhd/
This example illustrates what can happen when you only address one element in an otherwise complex product.

Elements of a complete design


#1 Light Engine: this is the technology that the projector uses DLP – DILA ETC.
The light engine is of quality in both brands. Although Wolf tolerances are higher and they do not accept any light engine with variable color shift.

#2 Optics: the Optics are the eyes of the projector. Better optics result in a focused three dimensional image
The optics package in the Wolf are of the highest quality.

#3 Digital processing: This and the lens are in my estimation the most important elements of the projector.
Proper digital processing eliminates unwanted video noise and creates a cohesive grey scale color balance that results in a truly cinematic image.
The digital processing is vastly superior in the Wolf Cinema projectors

#4 Scaling: this is the process by where an incoming video source is pixel matched to the native rate of the projectors light engine.
A properly designed scalar produces little to no visual artifacts.
The scaling in the wolf is second to none.

Essentially the end result of a projectors image quality is the sum of all its parts not just one element.
This is expressly why one of my recommendations is an SDC-6. This projector is not even a DILA, It is a single Chip DLP.
The end result however is better in many ways then the JVC.

It is important to know I have calibrated several JVC’s for a company that I work with often.
I can’t tell you how strange they can behave and how hard it is to reap an accurate calibration from them.

Also important to know that if in the final analysis you want to pursue the JVC I would be happy to procure one for you.
Compared with other consumer brands the JVC is a stand out. But in the Pro-sumer world it lacks behind Wolf, Runco, DPI and Projection Design.


I would be happy to dig even deeper when we meet on Monday. I know you are already pre-disposed to the JVC but I really want to make sure you see what else is out there as I want to give you my best advice rather than simply follow the path of least "

My friend ordered a Zero Edge Black Diamond screen and has beige colored walls, and definitely not a "black room". What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? I don't want my friend to waste his money, even if he has plenty to burn and it's his first PJ.

Thanks
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post #2 of 8 Old 05-02-2014, 05:33 PM
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4910 and put the $6000 difference into something else...

or send it to us for a consulting fee.. smile.gif
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post #3 of 8 Old 05-02-2014, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, I appreciate the reply, but Zombie, how can I best articulate the "why"?
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post #4 of 8 Old 05-02-2014, 06:42 PM
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that installer's comments are tough to read. there is some serious hyperbole in there... smile.gif

tell him there is a JVC inside that designer box.. The 4910 has very good out of the box color performance, they are not difficult to calibrate.

Have the installer bring over a 4910 vs. the SDC-10 with a split source, we would have a good conversation on his sales pitch. cool.gif



btw, I am stealing his tagline.

"Optics: the Optics are the eyes of the projector"
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post #5 of 8 Old 05-02-2014, 07:56 PM
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The answer is simple, the installer does not make much (if any) money selling JVC's during the install, so that is why he strays from them.


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post #6 of 8 Old 05-02-2014, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

Hello Everyone,

I have been following projectors for a few years, and by no means am an expert, my friend is having a calibrator outfit his condo, and he is recommending to my friend a Wolf SDC-10 for ~8k, which I think is basically an older rebadged JVC, I think my friend would be better off with either of the new models and is getting suckered, but he doesn't believe me.


Here is what he is telling my friend:

"The Wolf Projectors are new models. The Contrast ratio’s are at the very least equal to that of the JVC.

There are many ways in which to measure contrast and on the consumer side they use methods that reap inaccurately large numbers.
Wolf is a pro-sumer / pro line. One testament to the inaccuracy of JVC’s numbers is that the Wolf REF-2000 which is $195,000.00 has a native contrast ratio of 10,000:1. This projector was formerly used for military flight simulation with a spare no expense design mandate.

Essentially there are 4 important elements to a projector, the JVC really only touches on one. The light Engine.
A Testament to this is the Seiki. This is a 4k flat panel television that has poorer picture quality then any of its equally priced 1080p competitors.
The reason for this is that they use an expensive 4k panel but invest in none of the drive electronics that actually create the image.
Check out this review http://www.cnet.com/products/seiki-se50uy04-4k-uhd/
This example illustrates what can happen when you only address one element in an otherwise complex product.

Elements of a complete design


#1 Light Engine: this is the technology that the projector uses DLP – DILA ETC.
The light engine is of quality in both brands. Although Wolf tolerances are higher and they do not accept any light engine with variable color shift.

#2 Optics: the Optics are the eyes of the projector. Better optics result in a focused three dimensional image
The optics package in the Wolf are of the highest quality.

#3 Digital processing: This and the lens are in my estimation the most important elements of the projector.
Proper digital processing eliminates unwanted video noise and creates a cohesive grey scale color balance that results in a truly cinematic image.
The digital processing is vastly superior in the Wolf Cinema projectors

#4 Scaling: this is the process by where an incoming video source is pixel matched to the native rate of the projectors light engine.
A properly designed scalar produces little to no visual artifacts.
The scaling in the wolf is second to none.

Essentially the end result of a projectors image quality is the sum of all its parts not just one element.
This is expressly why one of my recommendations is an SDC-6. This projector is not even a DILA, It is a single Chip DLP.
The end result however is better in many ways then the JVC.

It is important to know I have calibrated several JVC’s for a company that I work with often.
I can’t tell you how strange they can behave and how hard it is to reap an accurate calibration from them.

Also important to know that if in the final analysis you want to pursue the JVC I would be happy to procure one for you.
Compared with other consumer brands the JVC is a stand out. But in the Pro-sumer world it lacks behind Wolf, Runco, DPI and Projection Design.


I would be happy to dig even deeper when we meet on Monday. I know you are already pre-disposed to the JVC but I really want to make sure you see what else is out there as I want to give you my best advice rather than simply follow the path of least "

My friend ordered a Zero Edge Black Diamond screen and has beige colored walls, and definitely not a "black room". What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? I don't want my friend to waste his money, even if he has plenty to burn and it's his first PJ.

Thanks

I agree with the others. Get the JVC 4910 and save his money. Would have no problem comparing the JVC to a Wolf, since the Wolf is a JVC inside, he is not going to be able to tell a difference.If we can help you, give us a call.

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post #7 of 8 Old 05-06-2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

#1 Light Engine: this is the technology that the projector uses DLP – DILA ETC.
The light engine is of quality in both brands. Although Wolf tolerances are higher and they do not accept any light engine with variable color shift.

I don't know what he actually means, but any projector with a lamp is going to have some color shift over time as the lamp changes.
Quote:
#2 Optics: the Optics are the eyes of the projector. Better optics result in a focused three dimensional image
The optics package in the Wolf are of the highest quality.

I notice he specifically doesn't say it's better than the JVC.
Quote:
#3 Digital processing: This and the lens are in my estimation the most important elements of the projector.
Proper digital processing eliminates unwanted video noise and creates a cohesive grey scale color balance that results in a truly cinematic image.
The digital processing is vastly superior in the Wolf Cinema projectors

#4 Scaling: this is the process by where an incoming video source is pixel matched to the native rate of the projectors light engine.
A properly designed scalar produces little to no visual artifacts.
The scaling in the wolf is second to none.

You could add a Lumagen Radiance to the JVC and have even better scaling/processing, not to mention calibration and just superior feature set in general.
Quote:
What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? I don't want my friend to waste his money, even if he has plenty to burn and it's his first PJ.

For what it's worth, it's really not a question of getting burned, or even "wasting" money, if your friend is happy with the installer/calibrator and the price, it sounds like he'll be getting a fantastic system. It's just that he can get an equally fantastic system for a bit less if he wants.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #8 of 8 Old 05-06-2014, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I don't know what he actually means, but any projector with a lamp is going to have some color shift over time as the lamp changes.

I notice he specifically doesn't say it's better than the JVC.

You could add a Lumagen Radiance to the JVC and have even better scaling/processing, not to mention calibration and just superior feature set in general.
For what it's worth, it's really not a question of getting burned, or even "wasting" money, if your friend is happy with the installer/calibrator and the price, it sounds like he'll be getting a fantastic system. It's just that he can get an equally fantastic system for a bit less if he wants.

Good post and I agree. smile.gif

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me: Mike@AVScience.com
Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/ 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI & many more.
Klipsch, RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
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