My God still no affordable 4K 60hz or 1080P 120hz projectors! Is this the slowest industry on the planet? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I work in commercial real estate and I thought my industry was slow in turning out product. Displayport 1.2 is capable of 4K 60hz and 1080p 120hz so why ohhh WHY have we not been blessed with an affordable projector that can put that out? Do you all think HDMI 2.0 will help speed the process up? I wanted a 120hz 1080p projector like 5 years ago and still it seems were are no closer today then then.

Who runs the demand marketing research for these projector companies? An affordable 120hz 1080p "true 3D" and or 4K 60hz projector would sell like HOT CAKES!!!
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post #2 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 12:44 PM
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I know you've already mentioned displayport, but I do not believe that's the goal of UHD.

so, basically there's no point in having a UHD product until the UHD cable spec is finally, officially, determined. so yeah, when hdmi2.0 is releases, that will speed things up.

I just don't see a huge market of ppl that want UHD so badly, and have enough money to 'burn', they will buy one before it's equipped with HDMI2.0.

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post #3 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 12:46 PM
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An "affordable" 4K projector would not sell nearly enough for it to be worthwhile at the moment considering the parts cost, etc. It will be awhile before there is nearly enough demand to warrant an affordable option. I'm not sure what you are after for a 120 Hz playback option as there is no content. There are plenty of 1080p projectors on the market at the moment with frame interpolation that will get you that kind of look with excellent motion resolution at the expense of the "soap opera look". But inputs are typically limited to 60p.

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post #4 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 01:23 PM
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An "affordable" 4K projector would not sell nearly enough for it to be worthwhile at the moment considering the parts cost, etc.

That term " affordable " is so slippery. I was checking out a restaurant wine list for a place we are going to dinner next week. I was sort of balking at spending $ 80.00 for a bottle of good domestic bubbly. Then I saw the Grand Cru Burgundy section - they had a bottle for $ 13,000.00, $ 13,500.00 and $ 14,500.00. It made the $ 80.00 sparkler look not only " affordable ', heck, they are giving it away at that price. eek.gif

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post #5 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

That term " affordable " is so slippery. I was checking out a restaurant wine list for a place we are going to dinner next week. I was sort of balking at spending $ 80.00 for a bottle of good domestic bubbly. Then I saw the Grand Cru Burgundy section - they had a bottle for $ 13,000.00, $ 13,500.00 and $ 14,500.00. It made the $ 80.00 sparkler look not only " affordable ', heck, they are giving it away at that price. eek.gif


For some people those are just extra zeros eek.gif Look at that hedge fund guy that bought the 147 million dollar house this week, I am sure a 14k bottle of wine is nothing for him tongue.gif

When I say affordable, I mean under 3 grand which is why I posted in the under 3 grand section. And I am looking at this from a computer / gaming standpoint as film is moot. I would like a 120hz 1080p projector so I could get true 60hz 1080p per eye. I tried the dual projector route with filters but that had too many issues.

And 4k projection....yesssss I wannna see my games in all their glory on the big screen!
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post #6 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by l88bastard View Post

For some people those are just extra zeros eek.gif Look at that hedge fund guy that bought the 147 million dollar house this week, I am sure a 14k bottle of wine is nothing for him tongue.gif

When I say affordable, I mean under 3 grand which is why I posted in the under 3 grand section. And I am looking at this from a computer / gaming standpoint as film is moot. I would like a 120hz 1080p projector so I could get true 60hz 1080p per eye. I tried the dual projector route with filters but that had too many issues.

And 4k projection....yesssss I wannna see my games in all their glory on the big screen!

You posted in the $3000+ forum.

What do you mean by "true 3D"?

There are no "affordable" 4K machines becauses there's no market demand for 4K products, let alone projectors. 4K is so niche right now it's not even funny. There's also close to no true 4K content either. Maybe in a few years when demand picks up we'll see some kind of affordable product. At the moment though, if a 4K projector did come to market at the sub $3000 price point you're hoping for, the 1080p products out there currently would have vastly better picture quality anyways. For a 4K projector to look appreciably better than 1080p you need a nice lens to fully resolve those pixels. I have a hard time believing this can be done well for less than $3000. You see this already with 1080p projectors. I mean, look at something like the Sony VPL-HW50ES compared to a Marantz VP-11S2 or Runco LS-5 or even a JVC DLA-X500. Resolution is definitely not everything. Look at those cheap Seiki 4K LCD panels. They look like garbage compared to a proper 1080p plasma or more expensive 4K panel from Sony. It simply isn't worth it right now to spend $3000 on a product that will give sub-par picture quality compared to the 1080p units out there currently for which the content their displaying is appropriate for. I personally wouldn't even consider a 4K unit unless it's PQ is overall better than the current 1080p products. Like I said before, resolution isn't everything.
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post #7 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 01:48 PM
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I doubt 4K projectors ( worth owning anyway ) won't be under $ 3K for 4 or 5 years. Heck, there isn't any 4K content to speak of.

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post #8 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

You posted in the $3000+ forum.

What do you mean by "true 3D"?

There are no "affordable" 4K machines becauses there's no market demand for 4K products, let alone projectors. 4K is so niche right now it's not even funny. There's also close to no true 4K content either. Maybe in a few years when demand picks up we'll see some kind of affordable product. At the moment though, if a 4K projector did come to market at the sub $3000 price point you're hoping for, the 1080p products out there currently would have vastly better picture quality anyways. For a 4K projector to look appreciably better than 1080p you need a nice lens to fully resolve those pixels. I have a hard time believing this can be done well for less than $3000. You see this already with 1080p projectors. I mean, look at something like the Sony VPL-HW50ES compared to a Marantz VP-11S2 or Runco LS-5 or even a JVC DLA-X500. Resolution is definitely not everything. Look at those cheap Seiki 4K LCD panels. They look like garbage compared to a proper 1080p plasma or more expensive 4K panel from Sony. It simply isn't worth it right now to spend $3000 on a product that will give sub-par picture quality compared to the 1080p units out there currently for which the content their displaying is appropriate for.

You posted faster than I did. +! - what he said !

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post #9 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Ah, so I accidentially posted in the 3k+ section...my bad

And there is plenty of content for FULL 4K....ooooodles actually, you guys just need to look past film. Yes there is a dearth of FILM content but there is TONS of 4K content for PC & small business users.

I am typing this right now on my 3440x1440 superwide computer display and I just wish we had a projector version of this or better.









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post #10 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 01:58 PM
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To add on to my previous post; People LOVE buzz words in technology. Before 4K, we had LED. But just like 4K, LEDs don't mean anything unless the product as a whole is designed around it to give superb picture quality. This means the light path, lens quality, video processing, light source, DI implementation, ect all need to be there if you want a good 4K experience. People look at the word 4K and get a hard on without taking into consideration what it takes to get a great 4K experience. Who cares if the resolution is crazy high if the picture on screen looks like garbage?
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post #11 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l88bastard View Post

Ah, so I accidentially posted in the 3k+ section...my bad

And there is plenty of content for FULL 4K....ooooodles actually, you guys just need to look past film. Yes there is a dearth of FILM content but there is TONS of 4K content for PC & small business users.

I am typing this right now on my 3440x1440 superwide computer display and I just wish we had a projector version of this or better.]

I wouldn't really call that content. Also, 4K gaming is VERY niche as well. You'll need to spend upwards of $2000 minimum on a gaming PC powerful enough to render most current games at decent frame rates. High end gaming PCs are almost as niche as people wanting 4K displays currently. I'm just saying you think there's a demand but there actually isn't. I would love for there to be more 4K displays out there currently at cheaper prices, as would everyone who frequents this forum, but the truth is the vast majority of people don't even know what 4K is and even if they did they're more than content to stick with their 1080p displays and monitors for a long time.

I realize I'm being a negative Nancy about this and I want what you want as well, but if you take a step back you'd realize it's not going to happen for a while. The marketplace just isn't there yet.
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post #12 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Well for every Negative Nancy there is a Suction Suzy tongue.gif

There is a demand, but it needs a different marketing strategy / approach. Of course there will be low demand if your trying to market to the film customer base.
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post #13 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 02:18 PM
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When you surround yourself on technology and PC forums it seems like there's a demand, but if you were to go ask 100 random people on the street about 4K I think you'd be surprised at how little interest there currently is for it.
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post #14 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by l88bastard View Post

Well for every Negative Nancy there is a Suction Suzy tongue.gif

There is a demand, but it needs a different marketing strategy / approach. Of course there will be low demand if your trying to market to the film customer base.

I don't tend to watch content solely based on the resolution it is available in - it has to be something I'm already interested in - like first rate movies or perhaps TV shows. The better resolution etc. is the icing on the cake. But you need good cake to begin with.

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post #15 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 03:09 PM
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L88bastard... Nice monitor...

Looks a little like min... wink.gif




I also wonder why not release a "perfect" monitor or projector with today's technology.

Even the monitor we have is still no where I would want the technology to be.

A perfect PC monitor with today's technology would be:

34"
3840X1635 Resolution
OLED
120htz
1 ms response time
0 ms input lag
DCI Color
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post #16 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 06:23 PM
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It looks like this placing it turning into [H]ard|OCP....

I knew kyle bennett when seegs was in diapers... biggrin.gif

that monitor is nice, time to order one.
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post #17 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 06:27 PM
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Remember the initial 1080i broadcasts came along in a few places in the USA in late 1998 and the first superbowl broadcast in HD was in 2000. Blu-ray, with 1080p was introduced in mid-2006 but the first 1080p projectors to break the $3000 price point didn't come out until around 2008. So it took about a decade after the first HD broadcasts to get a 1080p front projector that was "affordable". The first very limited UHD consumer video sources have only been available for a few months and we are still at least a couple of years away from have much content available in UHD. Thus, we are in the very early stage of roll out for UHD technology, which by the way is still in the process of being defined. We may see a $5000 UHD projector within a couple of years, but the $3000 price point is still a few years away.
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post #18 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

It looks like this placing it turning into [H]ard|OCP....

I knew kyle bennett when seegs was in diapers... biggrin.gif

that monitor is nice, time to order one.


Psssshhh, Kyle's got nothing on me.... biggrin.gif

I'm still rocking the Dell 3007wfp and two 20" in portrait on the sides:





That's right. I rock it old school. Ikea Jerker desk. cool.gif
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post #19 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Remember the initial 1080i broadcasts came along in a few places in the USA in late 1998 and the first superbowl broadcast in HD was in 2000. Blu-ray, with 1080p was introduced in mid-2006 but the first 1080p projectors to break the $3000 price point didn't come out until around 2008. So it took about a decade after the first HD broadcasts to get a 1080p front projector that was "affordable". The first very limited UHD consumer video sources have only been available for a few months and we are still at least a couple of years away from have much content available in UHD. Thus, we are in the very early stage of roll out for UHD technology, which by the way is still in the process of being defined. We may see a $5000 UHD projector within a couple of years, but the $3000 price point is still a few years away.

Makes total sense. This is why I am considering one more 1080p projector upgrade when the 2015 JVCs arrive (and assuming it's a worthwhile upgrade over my RS4810 to me). I would then hold onto this until the 4K projectors become affordable in a few years by which time content is plentiful (I hope!).
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post #20 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 06:41 PM
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Seegs108... What's all that empty space between the "one" video card and the power supply... wink.gif

You need to fill it up more. biggrin.gif
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post #21 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 06:46 PM
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My single GTX 690 is more than enough for me right now. I don't game enough to justify that card. Though lately I've been using it a lot for 4K scaling via MadVR's JINC scaler.
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post #22 of 74 Old 05-08-2014, 10:41 PM
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so if we consider the primary market for a 4k projector to be gamers like the OP...

how large is the market of gamers capable of playing games at 4k?
how many of those would actually want a projector instead of a multi-monitor configuration?

that's why we're saying it's a small market. even on here, it's going to be a small demand. in the 'wild' it's gonna be tiny.

and if we're talking about gaming, there's also input lag and motion resolution to worry about, things that are fairly difficult to accomplish on anything other than DLP. and let's face it, if it's got any chance of being successful as a movie projector too, it's either going to be 3 chip DLP, and definitely not 'affordable', or it's going to have to overcome some of the limitations with black levels and current DLP's, also something that is going to raise price considerably.

so basically, with currently affordable projectors, it's nearly impossible to make a 1080p model that good at both movies and gaming. this would be equally, if not more difficult with 4k. and as of right now, neither market is nearly big enough to support an affordable option. maybe if you combined both, there might be, but the gamers won't be happy with the 80ms lag times of the movie projector, and the movie buffs won't settle for the bright blacks of the gaming projector.

I don't know why, but it just feels like ppl are expecting way too much, way too soon out of 4k. I mean I don't even have a source of 1080p content other than bluray right now. I mean sure, my HTPC outputs at that, but that doesn't really mean all the sources I play through it are, only the ones that came from a bluray are. cable, satellite, anything I stream that actually works, will all be 720p or worse. and this is the state of HD more than a decade after it became a reality. I honestly wouldn't expect 4k to have any significance to my life until 2020 or so.

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post #23 of 74 Old 05-09-2014, 08:47 AM
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I don't know why, but it just feels like ppl are expecting way too much, way too soon out of 4k. I mean I don't even have a source of 1080p content other than bluray right now. I mean sure, my HTPC outputs at that, but that doesn't really mean all the sources I play through it are, only the ones that came from a bluray are. cable, satellite, anything I stream that actually works, will all be 720p or worse. and this is the state of HD more than a decade after it became a reality. I honestly wouldn't expect 4k to have any significance to my life until 2020 or so.

+1. It's going to take a long time IMO. In the mean time, 1080p / Blu Ray ain't too shabby ! smile.gif

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post #24 of 74 Old 05-09-2014, 02:07 PM
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Man, PC gaming is why I am dyin for an "affordable" 4k projo. I don't have dual 780 Ti's for nuthin! Hopefully hitting my sweet spot (6-7k) won't take 5+ yrs. Guess 2k for Watch Dogs (or just 1080p if I use my projo) will have to do for now.
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post #25 of 74 Old 05-09-2014, 02:38 PM
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A lot of things are going to change for digital projectors over the following 3-4 years. The most important, in my opinion, is the light source. It is clear that light bulbs are going to be replaced by a form of solid state light source. Until that happens, and we get a reliable light source for less than $5,000, I would recommend that anyone that has a projector should stick with it. If you do not have one and cannot wait for another 3-4 years minimum, than get the most affordable projector that you can live with as far as image quality is concerned, and wait it out. Yearly upgrades are going to keep being marginal by all manufacturers, until they switch to a different light source. The main benefits will be: longer life, more stable light output throughout the life of the unit, better primary colors, and, if the light source is adjustable, greater contrast, which could end up being infinite in theory, if the light source can turn off completely at 0 IRE.

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post #26 of 74 Old 05-09-2014, 03:36 PM
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Completely agree with napos, his thinking was identical to mine. My 5 year old PJ was dying, and I just got a new PJ and went "low end" (Epson 5030). Price/performance of sub $5K PJ's as a transitional step to solid state light sources and other major technology in future PJ's was my reasoning. Glad I did it. Looks like we are on the cusp of many new technologies, but it is just not quite there yet.
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post #27 of 74 Old 05-09-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by usualsuspects View Post

Completely agree with napos, his thinking was identical to mine. My 5 year old PJ was dying, and I just got a new PJ and went "low end" (Epson 5030). Price/performance of sub $5K PJ's as a transitional step to solid state light sources and other major technology in future PJ's was my reasoning. Glad I did it. Looks like we are on the cusp of many new technologies, but it is just not quite there yet.

Smart thinking! Actually the Epson 5030 (TW-9200 in Europe), or the JVC X35 (RS-46) would be my 2 choices as well, since I can get them both at the same price in Europe. I can get the Epson for 2.000 Euros in Greece, where I live and I can get the JVC for 2.000 Euros in Germany. The bizarre thing is that the prices are switched inversely between these 2 models between Greece and Germany. The Epson costs 2.000 Euros in Greece and 2.780 in Germany and the JVC costs 2.850 Euros in Greece and 2.000 in Germany! Go figure! Anyway, the point is, get the one with the lowest price, since they both throw an amazing image for "low end" models. The important thing to remember is that your "compromise" has about 90-95% of the performance of the "high end" models. I think we are getting close to the norm for "hi-end" audio, where for a 5% improvement you pay a premium of 200-300% at least!

I love my Sky HD!!!
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post #28 of 74 Old 05-09-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by napos View Post

A lot of things are going to change for digital projectors over the following 3-4 years. The most important, in my opinion, is the light source. It is clear that light bulbs are going to be replaced by a form of solid state light source. Until that happens, and we get a reliable light source for less than $5,000, I would recommend that anyone that has a projector should stick with it. If you do not have one and cannot wait for another 3-4 years minimum, than get the most affordable projector that you can live with as far as image quality is concerned, and wait it out. Yearly upgrades are going to keep being marginal by all manufacturers, until they switch to a different light source. The main benefits will be: longer life, more stable light output throughout the life of the unit, better primary colors, and, if the light source is adjustable, greater contrast, which could end up being infinite in theory, if the light source can turn off completely at 0 IRE.

that is the MOST significant change I am waiting for.

instant on/off and long bulb life with the same picture quality would be huge for me. if they manage to actually improve picture quality as well, even better.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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post #29 of 74 Old 05-09-2014, 07:55 PM
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This thread makes me think of the line from Junior Soprano, " I want to [blank] Angie Dickinson, let's see who gets lucky first."

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post #30 of 74 Old 05-10-2014, 02:38 AM
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The first broadcast for "HD" was the 1984 Olympics. It took ten more years before full scale broadcast was achieved. With another four more years of testing. I think we've done well so far with 4k.

 

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