4K 60+Hz Gaming Projector - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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4K 60+Hz Gaming Projector

Hello,
I am looking to buy a 4K Projector preferably by Sony.


This projector will be used for watching movies and playing games from my high-end PC.


As you know Gaming requires at least 60Hz refresh rate so that would mean that the projector should probably use either DisplayPort 1.2 or HDMI 2.0 standard.

I want really nice colors and good blacks and all. I am not an expert, but I want really nice picture.

I kindly ask that you help me choose the right projector as I have never bought a projector before. I can afford to pay about $10k tops


Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 12:17 PM
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Sony is currently the only manufacturer out with consumer 4K projectors. In your budget you'd want to go with the Sony VPL-VW600ES. It has a street price within your budget. The only issue is that you won't be able to game with it until a graphics card comes out with HDMI 2.0 ports. You can't use your DisplayPort for two reasons:

  • DP1.2 only supports 4k @60Hz using "MST" (multi-stream transport). The displays that support this take one stream to drive the left side of the display, and another to drive the right side.
  • Even if you had a special HDMI adapter that "fused" two DP1.2 streams into a single HDMI 2.0 equivalent, you'd still need to resample the color down to 4:2:0 (none of the video cards on the market support this yet). Both Sony 4K projectors only support 4:2:0 at 60hz when a 4K signal is being fed to it.

You'll most likely have to wait for an nVidia or AMD refresh or new generation of cards to see HDMI 2.0 ports. Until then you're SOL.

Last edited by Seegs108; 06-13-2014 at 12:22 PM.
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post #3 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 02:01 PM
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The Sony 4K projectors have a long lag time when being fed 1080p which makes then unsuitable for gaming. The lag time when fed 2160p video (i.e, 4K) should be less, but perhaps still too long for fast action games. The MSRP of Sony's least expensive projector in the USA (i.e., model VPL-VW600) is $15K and, as I understand it, authorized Sony dealers are required to not discount these projectors more than a small amount (e.g., 10%). You might find other sources selling them in the $10K range, but without a Sony USA warranty. However some authorized dealers do have 'B Stock' Sony projectors from time to time that do come the Sony USA warranty.


New projectors will be announced at the CEDIA Expo show in September, where we may hear news of new 4K UHD projectors coming from other manufacturers beyond Sony (and probably also new models from Sony).

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post #4 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Sony is currently the only manufacturer out with consumer 4K projectors. In your budget you'd want to go with the Sony VPL-VW600ES. It has a street price within your budget. The only issue is that you won't be able to game with it until a graphics card comes out with HDMI 2.0 ports. You can't use your DisplayPort for two reasons:

  • DP1.2 only supports 4k @60Hz using "MST" (multi-stream transport). The displays that support this take one stream to drive the left side of the display, and another to drive the right side.
  • Even if you had a special HDMI adapter that "fused" two DP1.2 streams into a single HDMI 2.0 equivalent, you'd still need to resample the color down to 4:2:0 (none of the video cards on the market support this yet). Both Sony 4K projectors only support 4:2:0 at 60hz when a 4K signal is being fed to it.

You'll most likely have to wait for an nVidia or AMD refresh or new generation of cards to see HDMI 2.0 ports. Until then you're SOL.

Is there a working solution above my price range?

@Ron Jones
Are you talking about input lag? Is it really that bad? Are there 4K projectors with lower playable input lag? I already have a Dell 31.5" 4K monitor which I use for most gaming but I would love to try something bigger.
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post #5 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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@Seegs108
What do you think about these statements:

Even though the DisplayPort 1.2 High Bit Rate 2 (HBR2) standard has enough effective bandwidth to support 4K at 60Hz using a single video stream (Single-Stream Transport, or SST), the required input controllers for monitors aren't currently available. It's therefore necessary to use DisplayPort in Multi-Stream Transport (MST) mode to run the two tiles at 60Hz. It's also possible to use two separate HDMI cables from the same source to do it, although it's generally considered less effective. The HDMI 1.4 standard isn't able to power 4K at 60Hz (hence the need for two cables), but thankfully the recently revealed HDMI 2.0 one is.


AMD has also confirmed that all of its current products support the DP 1.2 HBR2 link rates and as such are ready for 4K 60Hz single stream displays when they become available. They did point out, however, that their R series parts, particularly the R9 290 series, are those which are designed to support the high pixel rates required in such a set-up.

Last edited by staykov; 06-13-2014 at 04:33 PM.
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post #6 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 04:34 PM
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Unfortunately there are only two 4K projectors out right now. There's the Sony VPL-VW600ES ($14999 MSRP) and the Sony VPL-VW1100ES ($27,999 MSRP) and both have the same limitations as far as what I've already mentioned. There is a professional version of the 1100ES that has DisplayPort inputs but it's much more expensive.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ctor_2000.html

You might want to wait until this fall when new projectors are released/announced. Right now your options are very limited. A little off topic but what GPUs are you running to play your games on your 4K monitor?
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staykov View Post
@Seegs108
What do you think about these statements:

Even though the DisplayPort 1.2 High Bit Rate 2 (HBR2) standard has enough effective bandwidth to support 4K at 60Hz using a single video stream (Single-Stream Transport, or SST), the required input controllers for monitors aren't currently available. It's therefore necessary to use DisplayPort in Multi-Stream Transport (MST) mode to run the two tiles at 60Hz. It's also possible to use two separate HDMI cables from the same source to do it, although it's generally considered less effective. The HDMI 1.4 standard isn't able to power 4K at 60Hz (hence the need for two cables), but thankfully the recently revealed HDMI 2.0 one is.


AMD has also confirmed that all of its current products support the DP 1.2 HBR2 link rates and as such are ready for 4K 60Hz single stream displays when they become available. They did point out, however, that their R series parts, particularly the R9 290 series, are those which are designed to support the high pixel rates required in such a set-up.

The HDMI "2.0" chipset in both of these Sony projectors doesn't fully support the entire 2.0 spec. It's bandwidth limited to 10.8Gbp/s (18 Gbp/s is the full spec throughput needed to support all HDMI 2.0 features) so even if you have an appropriate adapter and a GPU that supports a single 60z 4K tile the color needs to be resampled to 4:2:0 which no GPU does currently. It's not going to work.

Last edited by Seegs108; 06-13-2014 at 04:57 PM.
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post #8 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 05:10 PM
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sorry - wrong thread
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post #9 of 26 Old 06-14-2014, 12:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The HDMI "2.0" chipset in both of these Sony projectors doesn't fully support the entire 2.0 spec. It's bandwidth limited to 10.8Gbp/s (18 Gbp/s is the full spec throughput needed to support all HDMI 2.0 features) so even if you have an appropriate adapter and a GPU that supports a single 60z 4K tile the color needs to be resampled to 4:2:0 which no GPU does currently. It's not going to work.


Thank you for your reply.
I am using 2 R9 295X2 Graphic Cards in Quad CrossFire for a total of 4 GPUs.


So hypothetically if I were to buy a Sony VPL-GT100 4K SXRD I could use it successfully for gaming through the displayport?


What about the input lag?
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-14-2014, 01:14 AM
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No one has posted about the lag introduced by that specific model so it's hard to say.
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-14-2014, 01:29 AM - Thread Starter
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This is going to sound crazy, but I am actually considering this projector... It's going to set me back hard, but maybe it will be worth it. If only I could find if the display lag is tolerable. Seegs108, based on your experience what would your guess be?
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post #12 of 26 Old 06-14-2014, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staykov View Post
This is going to sound crazy, but I am actually considering this projector... It's going to set me back hard, but maybe it will be worth it. If only I could find if the display lag is tolerable. Seegs108, based on your experience what would your guess be?


I suspect that, but have no direct information, the display lag will be similar to the consumer VW1100es since they are based on the same chassis. The pro model adds a display port input and a few features, but I would not assume that it offers a lower lag time unless there are actual test results that indicate otherwise. I suggest you hold off any purchase for perhaps 6 months as there will likely be new 4K/UHD projectors coming to market in that time frame.

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post #13 of 26 Old 06-14-2014, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I see. Maybe you are right. Thank you.
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post #14 of 26 Old 06-14-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by staykov View Post
This is going to sound crazy, but I am actually considering this projector... It's going to set me back hard, but maybe it will be worth it. If only I could find if the display lag is tolerable. Seegs108, based on your experience what would your guess be?


I suspect that, but have no direct information, the display lag will be similar to the consumer VW1100es since they are based on the same chassis. The pro model adds a display port input and a few features, but I would not assume that it offers a lower lag time unless there are actual test results that indicate otherwise. I suggest you hold off any purchase for perhaps 6 months as there will likely be new 4K/UHD projectors coming to market in that time frame.


I agree 100%. It just isn't worth the extra money especially when gaming is a priority.
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post #15 of 26 Old 06-19-2014, 04:58 PM
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i see,same to me,not assume that it offers a lower lag time unless there are actual test results that indicate otherwise. I suggest you hold off any purchase for perhaps 6 months as there will likely be new 4K/UHD projectors coming to market in that time frame.thanks
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post #16 of 26 Old 06-19-2014, 07:35 PM
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Get this instead and post lots of pictures!! : http://store.sony.com/78.6-diag-x900...alue%3Dfaceted


buy it buy it buy it buy it buy it buy it

Cool Beans.
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post #17 of 26 Old 06-21-2014, 07:44 AM
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Apparently Nvidia has enabled 4K@60Hz support in their latest drivers via HDMI:

https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...45376/#4245376

I haven't tried it myself but will get an Nvidia card if anybody here can confirm what the latency looks like (it's 120 msecs when 1080p is fed to the VW600).
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post #18 of 26 Old 06-26-2014, 08:47 PM
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Note that it is YUV420 - that's OK for bluray video which is encoded at 4:2:0 already.
But it is definitely not OK for text which won't look right for anything less than 4:4:4 and it will reduce the quality of computer-generated graphics like in a video game. Whether it reduces it more than you find acceptable will be a matter of personal preference.

Here's some background:
Official 4:4:4 / Chroma Subsampling Thread
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post #19 of 26 Old 06-27-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
The MSRP of Sony's least expensive projector in the USA (i.e., model VPL-VW600) is $15K and, as I understand it, authorized Sony dealers are required to not discount these projectors more than a small amount (e.g., 10%). You might find other sources selling them in the $10K range, but without a Sony USA warranty. However some authorized dealers do have 'B Stock' Sony projectors from time to time that do come the Sony USA warranty.
Actually I purchased mine brand new from an Authorized Seller (right here in the USA) for $9000 (plus tax) w/full Sony warranty.
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post #20 of 26 Old 06-28-2014, 05:48 AM
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as Ron sais, the input lag makes current 4K projectors unsuitiable for (online) gaming.

I would settle for 1080p
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post #21 of 26 Old 06-28-2014, 07:12 AM
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Where is the info on VW1100 lag time coming from? has someone measured it since the 1100 release / Motherboard update?

I'll measure it over the weekend with the CRT I use in all the shoot-out reviews to confirm.

The Nvidia drivers allow 60hz @ 3840x2160 and 4096x2160. Time to fire up steam and check out some games.

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post #22 of 26 Old 06-28-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The Nvidia drivers allow 60hz @ 3840x2160 and 4096x2160. Time to fire up steam and check out some games
How does this picture look like under this resolution? http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png You might take a picture of that or just tell us if it's 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. Needn't be said the picture should be viewed unscaled.
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post #23 of 26 Old 06-28-2014, 03:39 PM
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post #24 of 26 Old 06-29-2014, 01:04 AM
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I don't know. I believe it won't matter if you view it under UHD resolution unscaled (at 100%). You may open it in Paint, for example.
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post #25 of 26 Old 07-01-2014, 05:15 AM
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Doesn't it seem like input lag concerns are overblown? I was prepared for my gaming to be ruined by a poorly rated (input lag 90ms) FP but I have yet to encounter a situation where it is perceptible.
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post #26 of 26 Old 07-02-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Where is the info on VW1100 lag time coming from? has someone measured it since the 1100 release / Motherboard update?

I'll measure it over the weekend with the CRT I use in all the shoot-out reviews to confirm.

The Nvidia drivers allow 60hz @ 3840x2160 and 4096x2160. Time to fire up steam and check out some games.

And so, what did you measure? Did you try 3d @ 1080p 60hz?
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