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Seeking feedback: Sony vs. JVC Projector <$8k for mixed use film/gaming

3K views 39 replies 12 participants last post by  avrignaud 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi folks,

I'm building my first home theater (working with Dennis Erskine on the design), and am seeking opinions on the best projector for my particular needs. My primary challenge is that the theater will be used almost equally for gaming and film viewing, and input lag is a real issue on the gaming side.

I was originally aiming for one of the newer JVC projectors such as the X700 — it seemed to be everything I wanted, including what are described as fantastic black levels. However, I found in reviews that the input lag is really bad — over 120 ms. I then researched low input lag projectors, and found that the Sony VPL-HW55ES appears to also be rated quite highly, and has dedicated game modes with low input lag.

What I am struggling with is that I do not have sufficient context to know what I might be missing out on between the two examples above. One (the JVC) is around $7-8k; the Sony is closer to $3500. Has anyone experienced both and can give an opinion on image quality/contrast/etc?

Few details on how/where the projector will be used:

- Dedicated basement home theater, complete light control (ie, fully dark)
- Will be projecting to a 132" wide anamorphic screen, so projector needs to support anamorphic lens
- Ideal location for the projector (over bar counter) would give throw length of 14'10".
- 4k support (even quasi-support like the JVC eShift tech) is nice, but not 100% required right now. I imagine I might just replace the projector a few years down the road when the HDMI 2.0 spec is locked down and I have hopefully better low lag input choices available.
- Only interested in 2D film; no interest at all in 3D support.

Appreciate your thoughts on if I'd be giving up too much with the Sony or not (such that I might want to just try to deal with the high input lag on the JVC). Also appreciate any other thoughts you might be able to share, with thanks!

AV
 
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#2 · (Edited)
The current generation of JVC projectors with eShift also now include a dynamic iris (as do the Sony projectors). The JVC DLA-RS49 or RS4910 lists for about $5K but can be purchased, from sources such as the AV Science store, for well under that price. These JVC models provide a better 2D image than the Sony HW55 and feature a lens memory which lets you use a 'scope' screen (e.g., 2.35:1 aspect ratio) without the need for an expensive anamorphic lens (but if you already have one then you can go ahead and use it). These JVC projectors offer decent 3D performance but DLP models will generally have less visible 3D crosstalk (ghosting), which you can occasionally see with all non-DLP projectors when viewing 3D content. Given your budget I suggest you go with a JVC DLA-RS4910 for movie viewing (or a more expensive JVC model if you really want too) and then also install a 2nd projector just for gaming. For this I would go with one of the inexpensive DLP projectors such as the BenQ W1070 ($1K) if its placement constraints don't rule it out in your room. For more $$ you can get a higher performance DLP model with a longer range zoom lens and perhaps a greater lens shift range that would provide better placement flexibility, such as the BenQ W7500, which has about a 60 ms input lag while the lower cost W1070 has about a 25ms input lag.
 
#3 ·
The current generation of JVC projectors with eShift also now include a dynamic iris (as do the Sony projectors). The JVC DLA-RS49 or RS4910 lists for about $5K but can be purchased, from sources such as the AV Science store, for well under that price. These JVC models provide a better 2D image than the Sony HW55 and feature a lens memory which lets you use a 'scope' screen (e.g., 2.35:1 aspect ratio) without the need for an expensive anamorphic lens (but if you already have one then you can go ahead and use it). These JVC projectors offer decent 3D performance but DLP models will generally have less visible 3D crosstalk (ghosting), which you can occasionally see with all non-DLP projectors when viewing 3D content. Given your budget I suggest you go with a JVC DLA-RS4910 for movie viewing (or a more expensive JVC model if you really want too) and then also install a 2nd projector just for gaming. For this I would go with one of the inexpensive DLP projectors such as the BenQ W1070 ($1K) if its placement constraints don't rule it out in your room. For more $$ you can get a higher performance DLP model with a longer range zoom lens and perhaps a greater lens shift range that would provide better placement flexibility, such as the BenQ W7500, which has about a 60 ms input lag while the lower cost W1070 has about a 25ms input lag.
Thank you for the input! It also occurs to me that I don't have personal experience with a JVC projector while gaming, so I should probably find a local retailer and try that out. I suppose it's possible (though unlikely) that it may not end up being as much of an issue as I suspect.

Related, I've seen folks suggest the AV Science store recommended a few times in these forums. Is that generally considered to be the best priced retailer to purchase from? Or are there other advantages to using them versus a local retailer?

Thank you again.
 
#4 ·
AVS has if not always the best (usually is), very close to the best prices and very knowledgeable sales people. Also you support these forums.

The two projector setup is a good option. Otherwise, I'd go for the Sony and just buy a true 4k upgrade in 2-3 years. If you've never had a projector before, you will most likely be very happy with the Sony and it is great for gaming.

What type of gaming do you do? If you play any sort of FPS online then I would stay away from high input lag as it will drive you crazy.
 
#26 ·
I play pretty much everything except sports games. Not a competitive FPS shooter fan, but do enjoy co-op with friends, and the occasional FPS head-to-head match (again, with friends, not the random dimwits on line). My primary focus are games that have as much story as they do combat/gameplay. Think Uncharted, The Last of Us, Skyrim, Mass Effect, that sort of thing. Many shooters I'll primarily play through the single player experience just for the spectacle — cotton candy type of thing. So, I'm not worried about lag from a competitive disadvantage experience, more an annoyance/"feels wrong" perspective. I guess there's really no way to tell without heading to a retailer and spending some time on different projectors with some games. But at that point, if they've been a help I'd feel a bit more obligated to buy from them than someone else like AVS. Bit of a dilemma!
 
#5 · (Edited)
Thank you for the input! It also occurs to me that I don't have personal experience with a JVC projector while gaming, so I should probably find a local retailer and try that out. I suppose it's possible (though unlikely) that it may not end up being as much of an issue as I suspect.

Related, I've seen folks suggest the AV Science store recommended a few times in these forums. Is that generally considered to be the best priced retailer to purchase from? Or are there other advantages to using them versus a local retailer?

Thank you again.

The AV Science store is well known to provide great service/support before and after the sale as well as offering some of the very best prices you will find. They also carry 'B' stock JVC projectors from time to time that sell for less than factory sealed units, but still come with the full manufacturer's warranty. I suggest you call Craig (AV Science salesman) at 585-671-2972 for more info and pricing. As for input lag on the JVC (or other) projectors you will generally get the least processing delays and thus the lowest lag time by turning off as many of the video processing features as possible. There was an earlier post in the JVC thread that said:



"If I disable e-Shift, Clear Black and C.M.D. then it is quite playable, to me. Maybe a smidgen slower than my previous PJ (Panasonic PT-AE2000), but that is hard to say. Likely too slow for HC FPS type of games..
With all of the image processing features on, the image looked tremendously good and sharp, but the input lag made driving around in GTA feel clearly too weird (i.e. too much / noticeable lag). "


 
#6 ·
Sent you a PM. I own a Sony and a JVC projector. :)
 
#7 ·
I have the Sony HW30es. Mainly chose it over the jvc b/c it was stronger in the 3d and gaming dept. The yr I bought the sony, jvc was having quality control issues with their lamps that has been fully resolved by jvc. I still mainly use my projector watching 2D programming or movies 90% of the time, but I game and watch 3d movies just enough where I have no buyers remorse. The contrast on the JVC is superior when you go to a specialized projector store and compare a sony & jvc right next to each other, but it was not a dramatic difference to me. As for lag in FPS... I never feel when I get killed it was from input lag. Rather it is me getting old, no longer having free time.
 
#8 ·
The AV Science store is well known to provide great service/support before and after the sale as well as offering some of the very best prices you will find. They also carry 'B' stock JVC projectors from time to time that sell for less than factory sealed units, but still come with the full manufacturer's warranty. I suggest you call Craig (AV Science salesman) at 585-671-2972 for more info and pricing. As for input lag on the JVC (or other) projectors you will generally get the least processing delays and thus the lowest lag time by turning off as many of the video processing features as possible. There was an earlier post in the JVC thread that said:



"If I disable e-Shift, Clear Black and C.M.D. then it is quite playable, to me. Maybe a smidgen slower than my previous PJ (Panasonic PT-AE2000), but that is hard to say. Likely too slow for HC FPS type of games..
With all of the image processing features on, the image looked tremendously good and sharp, but the input lag made driving around in GTA feel clearly too weird (i.e. too much / noticeable lag). "


Thanks Ron — that helps a great deal. I'll definitely need to try it out before making a decision. Crossing my fingers that a few years brings a nice wave of high contrast, dark black, low input lag 4K projectors to choose from!
 
#9 ·
I'm going to put in another vote for a dual projector set up.


grab the jvc for the best possible movie experience(assuming that's the case)
spend 1000bux or less on a good DLP projector with ultra low lag for gaming only.


it's the same argument I use to justify winter tires. if you have twice as many, they will last twice as long. and when you buy each specifically for the purpose you will use it for, it can give you the best of both. you will not find a projector that gives as good of movie performance as the best jvc, and as good of gaming performance as a good DLP. and you DEFINITELY won't find one that's close for less money.


you could even consider an LED projector for the gaming unit. it'll be a bit more likely, but then you also remove the worry about bulb use and such. you end up with a projector that's perfect for gaming, and casual use. and one that perfect for movies. the only compromise is having a second small projector hidden somewhere at the back of the room.
 
#13 · (Edited)
If you care about contrast expect to pay at least $6000 for something new. Unfortunately LED still carries a premium and the recently released "budget" LED model from Optoma (HD91 ~$4000 MSRP) was terrible with contrast. Terrible even for DLP standards. To save some money you could look into a used LED unit from Runco (they offer the Q750i, Q650i, and LS-100D), or a unit from Vivitek (H9080FD), or Digital Projection (various models). I've owned all but a Digital Projection model. These units offer excellent PQ (with very respectable contrast) and have minimal input lag. If you choose a non LED unit this will broaden your options and will mean you'll probably save some cash. If you're interested I currently have the Runco LS-100D for sale in the classified section of this forum.
but for a secondary projector, this doesn't really apply.
the point of a dual projector set up is that you can get a projector that's great for movies and a projector that's great for gaming for a lot less money than a projector that's great for movies and gaming.

btw, I'm pretty sure the avs store had some crazy deal on the digital projection model. so maybe that's a good option too? http://www.trustedreviews.com/digital-projection-m-vision-cine-led_Projector_review

I don't know what the deal is with the new jvc's, but even the x35 seems capable of exceeding commercial theater quality for deep blacks and contrast.
I don't know exactly what you're needs are, but LG's got an LED projector that has been getting good reviews in it's price range. I believe it's around 1000bux: http://www.lg.com/us/projectors/lg-PF85U-portable-led-projector
but really, at this point in time, you may still be better off sticking with something like the benq 1070 and a stash of bulbs for your gaming projector. at least it's proven performance, and you can get 30 000hrs of use out of it for about the same amount of money, you'd just have to replace the bulb a few times. and what are the chances of actually getting 30 000hrs of use before you want to upgrade anyway?


so personally, I'd consider something like the jvc x35 or rs4810, or whatever the new version is, x500? as my 'movie' projector. and get a benq 1070 as my gaming/3D/casual projector. and this should be doable for about 4g(if you do the x35) to 5g.
 
#11 ·
If you care about contrast expect to pay at least $6000 for something new. Unfortunately LED still carries a premium and the recently released "budget" LED model from Optoma (HD91 ~$4000 MSRP) was terrible with contrast. Terrible even for DLP standards. To save some money you could look into a used LED unit from Runco (they offer the Q750i, Q650i, and LS-100D), or a unit from Vivitek (H9080FD), or Digital Projection (various models). I've owned all but a Digital Projection model. These units offer excellent PQ (with very respectable contrast) and have minimal input lag. If you choose a non LED unit this will broaden your options and will mean you'll probably save some cash. If you're interested I currently have the Runco LS-100D for sale in the classified section of this forum.
 
#12 ·
If you are going to buy a projector I would ALWAYS recommend using AVS or a local dealer that you've created a relationship with. I understand there are always possibilities that will save you a few extra dollars but that mindset (especially if it is indeed a negligable difference) is why we have so few dealers anymore. The whole windowshopping mindset has killed nearly every dealer in my area because people wanted to save a hundred bucks or so on a multi-thousand dollar product they could get online. Problem is those online places aren't providing you ANY service whereas a dealer has to pay for YOUR ability to go look at the projector to make an informed decision. Sure AVS doesn't provide that service but I think you'd be an idiot to say that they don't offer one helluva insight into ANY product with these forums and I've found that EVERYONE that works for them is spectacular in getting information, customer support and providing the latest on product issues and updates. But I still see people that would rather take a chance and roll of the dice on some random ebay guy that saves them a bit and lines the pockets of someone that has provided you NOTHING in your decision to make that sale except some money. I think of a solid local dealer or a place like AVS as an INVESTMENT in my hobby and I would much rather pay a bit more to ensure they stick around in this crappy economy than some random sales guy on ebay that is probably selling you something he shouldn't be and giving you no security or even long term support on the product. The more people keep buying that way the less chance you'll ever have of seeing properly setup demos or even forums like this of exisitng.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread............
 
#14 ·
Just because he's using it for games doesn't mean he doesn't need something that looks decent with contrast. I can't imagine playing something like Metro 2033 or similar on a BenQ W1070. There are plenty of games that look SO much better on something that can do decent contrast. I've owned so many of these cheap ~$1000 DLPs and none of them were even remotely close to the LED models I'm talking about in regards to contrast. It makes all the difference in the world to get yourself immersed into the game. With his budget he could get a JVC for movies and an LED unit I'm talking about within his budget. A B-Stock JVC from AVScience and a used LED model is an amazing combination and will fit all his needs.
 
#16 ·
input lag is WAY more important than contrast for gaming, imo. truth be told, I normally crank the brightness of my games so I can see what's hiding in the shadows anyway


for my own education, what LED models are in the price range that offer better performance than the 1070? at some point I want to replace my f8500 with an led projector for my daily usage.
 
#17 ·
great,The contrast on the JVC is superior when you go to a specialized projector store and compare a sony & jvc right next to each other, but it was not a dramatic difference to me. As for lag in FPS... I never feel when I get killed it was from input lag. Rather it is me getting old, no longer having free time.thanks
 
#21 · (Edited)
Hi folks,

I'm building my first home theater (working with Dennis Erskine on the design), and am seeking opinions on the best projector for my particular needs. My primary challenge is that the theater will be used almost equally for gaming and film viewing, and input lag is a real issue on the gaming side.

I was originally aiming for one of the newer JVC projectors such as the X700 — it seemed to be everything I wanted, including what are described as fantastic black levels. However, I found in reviews that the input lag is really bad — over 120 ms. I then researched low input lag projectors, and found that the Sony VPL-HW55ES appears to also be rated quite highly, and has dedicated game modes with low input lag.

What I am struggling with is that I do not have sufficient context to know what I might be missing out on between the two examples above. One (the JVC) is around $7-8k; the Sony is closer to $3500. Has anyone experienced both and can give an opinion on image quality/contrast/etc?

Few details on how/where the projector will be used:

- Dedicated basement home theater, complete light control (ie, fully dark)
- Will be projecting to a 132" wide anamorphic screen, so projector needs to support anamorphic lens
- Ideal location for the projector (over bar counter) would give throw length of 14'10".
- 4k support (even quasi-support like the JVC eShift tech) is nice, but not 100% required right now. I imagine I might just replace the projector a few years down the road when the HDMI 2.0 spec is locked down and I have hopefully better low lag input choices available.
- Only interested in 2D film; no interest at all in 3D support.

Appreciate your thoughts on if I'd be giving up too much with the Sony or not (such that I might want to just try to deal with the high input lag on the JVC). Also appreciate any other thoughts you might be able to share, with thanks!

AV
If 2d movie viewing is your main priority I would suggest(given your budget and long term priorities) a Panasonic.

There is much more to creating a beautiful picture than just black levels,contrast and sharpness.

I have the flagship 4K Sony1000es and the Panasonic AE2000.

The Panasonic's have a unique processor(detail clarity) that analyses the low, medium and high frequency components of the image----it then applies the appropriate sharpness to these areas providing the most organic, filmic look-----areas of an image that are intended to be soft remain soft.......areas of an image that are intended to be sharp look sharp.






Combined with 16bit colour processing and it's smooth screen tech(double refraction from the crystal plates) to eliminate the black spaces between pixels ..... this very organic look is accentuated.

In my opinion.....it is the best out there when it comes to replicating an authentic 35mm "feel" to the images.

Yes the JVC's and the Sony's offer superior blacks and greater sharpness but do suffer from colour fringing/banding as well as providing a very digital(noise) look to some material .

My 2 cents.
 
#27 ·
I've been intrigued by Sony's projectors primarily because they directly targeted the display lag issue with a dedicated gaming mode. Seems to get lag below 30 ms or so, which seems to be a good target. Earlier a Panasonic was recommended, which I'll check out.

Does anyone know of other projector brands that have a similar low lag/gaming mode? I'm surprised that JVC hasn't gone this route for one...
 
#30 ·
One thing to keep in mind if you were to do the two pj route and got the Benq 1070 is the rainbow effect. I use a 1070 just for 3D and I can easily see the rainbow effect if I move my eyes quickly or if there is quick movement on screen which means there is no doubt I'd see it if I were gaming on it. I will say that to me the 1070 is a nice PJ for the price and when I first got it I was actually impressed with as good the image quality is given the price

Obviously not everyone susceptible to RBE (and I envy those who aren't) so you need to keep that in mind.

When you say your theater will be completely dark do you just mean there won't be ambient light or that your walls and ceiling will be dark? I ask because to really get the most out of a projector like a JVC model (and I'd guess every other high contrast pj) you want your surfaces to be as dark as possible with little to no light reflection being able to bounce back onto the screen. My dedicated room is a darker than average grey and I always figured that was enough until I covered the walls and ceiling first in some black felt which helped and then in black velvet last year and the difference is pretty significant. I'm using an RS50.

I'm also with Seegs that a solid contrast ratio is very nice to have when gaming. I just started playing Dead Space on my PC hooked up to my Samsung D630 LCD in my room and while it looks pretty good, it is a very dark game which makes me kind of wish I was playing it on a great plasma, OLED or my RS50 to take advantage of the great black and contrast ratio.
 
#31 ·
I'm also with Seegs that a solid contrast ratio is very nice to have when gaming. I just started playing Dead Space on my PC hooked up to my Samsung D630 LCD in my room and while it looks pretty good, it is a very dark game which makes me kind of wish I was playing it on a great plasma, OLED or my RS50 to take advantage of the great black and contrast ratio.
totally understand wanting the best image possible, and I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but with a game like that, I always turn up the brightness in the game menu so I can see what's hiding in the shadows. I mean I game on either an f8500 plasma or the jvc x35 right now, both good contrast with amazing blacks, but I'm never able to take advantage of it. it's seems if I leave games anywhere near their default brightness, it increases the difficulty and reduces playability by a large amount.


for example, I was playing the new wolfenstein game recently, and was totally stuck. couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do. turns out there was a door hiding around a corner in the shadows. I had to turn the brightness up in the menu nearly all the way for it to be visible, and after doing so, say goodbye to those awesome black levels...


I almost wonder if game designers these days are making the games specifically on LCD's and that's why they never seem to work on a good plasma or display with excellent blacks and contrast.
 
#34 ·
I want my damn game genie back!
When using PC or game console, such as a Playstation 3 or 4, the video output is in RGB format and the reference black level is normally 0 (zero) rather than 16 as used for TV and Movies. You will typically need to create a different setting for the brightness control of the display (be it a flat panel or projector) for displaying games vs. watching blu-rays or TV broadcasts due to the difference in the reference black levels.
interesting, will have to try this. i already have a second input on my f8500 set up for just gaming, including a slightly higher brightness level. although, to be honest, i almost feel like I've already adjusted my ps3 to output 16-235 as i use it as my bluray player. could be wrong though. i have no idea what the xbox is set to, and that's what i normally game on, so i'll give it a shot and see what happens.
 
#38 · (Edited)
ok well, unfortunately none of this ps3 stuff will have any effect on my gaming, as I do that with the 360...


but anyway, I checked my settings and I had the 360 set to RGB, and my tv was set to the 0-255 range already(it actually seems to do this automatically based on the source, because my HTPC which is set to output 16-235 actually has this option greyed out and set to the 'limited' setting)


I think it's actually the problem, not the solution. with 0-255, the image is much darker, kinda makes sense I guess, since everything from 0-16 would show up as 'black'.

I have a feeling there's something not working as it should, since my display still shows deep blacks(in letterbox 'cut scenes' for example), but now I don't crush all the detail in the blacks. maybe I need to figure out a way to run the test patterns through the xbox? you'd think if I set up the display to show 0-255, and sent a source compatible with that, I wouldn't end up with 0-10 showing up as 'black'(I'm just guessing, as I have no way of actually checking since my test patterns look good).


maybe I'm better off doing everything in 16-235, I'm more comfortable with those settings, and I have to imagine ALL my stuff will work with it. would be unfortunate if one little thing along the chain defaulted to 16-235 and I didn't realize it.
 
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