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post #1 of 40 Old 06-13-2014, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Seeking feedback: Sony vs. JVC Projector <$8k for mixed use film/gaming

Hi folks,

I'm building my first home theater (working with Dennis Erskine on the design), and am seeking opinions on the best projector for my particular needs. My primary challenge is that the theater will be used almost equally for gaming and film viewing, and input lag is a real issue on the gaming side.

I was originally aiming for one of the newer JVC projectors such as the X700 — it seemed to be everything I wanted, including what are described as fantastic black levels. However, I found in reviews that the input lag is really bad — over 120 ms. I then researched low input lag projectors, and found that the Sony VPL-HW55ES appears to also be rated quite highly, and has dedicated game modes with low input lag.

What I am struggling with is that I do not have sufficient context to know what I might be missing out on between the two examples above. One (the JVC) is around $7-8k; the Sony is closer to $3500. Has anyone experienced both and can give an opinion on image quality/contrast/etc?

Few details on how/where the projector will be used:

- Dedicated basement home theater, complete light control (ie, fully dark)
- Will be projecting to a 132" wide anamorphic screen, so projector needs to support anamorphic lens
- Ideal location for the projector (over bar counter) would give throw length of 14'10".
- 4k support (even quasi-support like the JVC eShift tech) is nice, but not 100% required right now. I imagine I might just replace the projector a few years down the road when the HDMI 2.0 spec is locked down and I have hopefully better low lag input choices available.
- Only interested in 2D film; no interest at all in 3D support.

Appreciate your thoughts on if I'd be giving up too much with the Sony or not (such that I might want to just try to deal with the high input lag on the JVC). Also appreciate any other thoughts you might be able to share, with thanks!

AV

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post #2 of 40 Old 06-13-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by avrignaud View Post
Hi folks,

I'm building my first home theater (working with Dennis Erskine on the design), and am seeking opinions on the best projector for my particular needs. My primary challenge is that the theater will be used almost equally for gaming and film viewing, and input lag is a real issue on the gaming side.

I was originally aiming for one of the newer JVC projectors such as the X700 — it seemed to be everything I wanted, including what are described as fantastic black levels. However, I found in reviews that the input lag is really bad — over 120 ms. I then researched low input lag projectors, and found that the Sony VPL-HW55ES appears to also be rated quite highly, and has dedicated game modes with low input lag.

What I am struggling with is that I do not have sufficient context to know what I might be missing out on between the two examples above. One (the JVC) is around $7-8k; the Sony is closer to $3500. Has anyone experienced both and can give an opinion on image quality/contrast/etc?

Few details on how/where the projector will be used:

- Dedicated basement home theater, complete light control (ie, fully dark)
- Will be projecting to a 132" wide anamorphic screen, so projector needs to support anamorphic lens
- Ideal location for the projector (over bar counter) would give throw length of 14'10".
- 4k support (even quasi-support like the JVC eShift tech) is nice, but not 100% required right now. I imagine I might just replace the projector a few years down the road when the HDMI 2.0 spec is locked down and I have hopefully better low lag input choices available.
- Only interested in 2D film; no interest at all in 3D support.

Appreciate your thoughts on if I'd be giving up too much with the Sony or not (such that I might want to just try to deal with the high input lag on the JVC). Also appreciate any other thoughts you might be able to share, with thanks!

AV
The current generation of JVC projectors with eShift also now include a dynamic iris (as do the Sony projectors). The JVC DLA-RS49 or RS4910 lists for about $5K but can be purchased, from sources such as the AV Science store, for well under that price. These JVC models provide a better 2D image than the Sony HW55 and feature a lens memory which lets you use a 'scope' screen (e.g., 2.35:1 aspect ratio) without the need for an expensive anamorphic lens (but if you already have one then you can go ahead and use it). These JVC projectors offer decent 3D performance but DLP models will generally have less visible 3D crosstalk (ghosting), which you can occasionally see with all non-DLP projectors when viewing 3D content. Given your budget I suggest you go with a JVC DLA-RS4910 for movie viewing (or a more expensive JVC model if you really want too) and then also install a 2nd projector just for gaming. For this I would go with one of the inexpensive DLP projectors such as the BenQ W1070 ($1K) if its placement constraints don't rule it out in your room. For more $$ you can get a higher performance DLP model with a longer range zoom lens and perhaps a greater lens shift range that would provide better placement flexibility, such as the BenQ W7500, which has about a 60 ms input lag while the lower cost W1070 has about a 25ms input lag.

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post #3 of 40 Old 06-14-2014, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=Ron Jones;24952401]
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Originally Posted by avrignaud View Post

The current generation of JVC projectors with eShift also now include a dynamic iris (as do the Sony projectors). The JVC DLA-RS49 or RS4910 lists for about $5K but can be purchased, from sources such as the AV Science store, for well under that price. These JVC models provide a better 2D image than the Sony HW55 and feature a lens memory which lets you use a 'scope' screen (e.g., 2.35:1 aspect ratio) without the need for an expensive anamorphic lens (but if you already have one then you can go ahead and use it). These JVC projectors offer decent 3D performance but DLP models will generally have less visible 3D crosstalk (ghosting), which you can occasionally see with all non-DLP projectors when viewing 3D content. Given your budget I suggest you go with a JVC DLA-RS4910 for movie viewing (or a more expensive JVC model if you really want too) and then also install a 2nd projector just for gaming. For this I would go with one of the inexpensive DLP projectors such as the BenQ W1070 ($1K) if its placement constraints don't rule it out in your room. For more $$ you can get a higher performance DLP model with a longer range zoom lens and perhaps a greater lens shift range that would provide better placement flexibility, such as the BenQ W7500, which has about a 60 ms input lag while the lower cost W1070 has about a 25ms input lag.
Thank you for the input! It also occurs to me that I don't have personal experience with a JVC projector while gaming, so I should probably find a local retailer and try that out. I suppose it's possible (though unlikely) that it may not end up being as much of an issue as I suspect.

Related, I've seen folks suggest the AV Science store recommended a few times in these forums. Is that generally considered to be the best priced retailer to purchase from? Or are there other advantages to using them versus a local retailer?

Thank you again.
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post #4 of 40 Old 06-14-2014, 01:17 PM
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AVS has if not always the best (usually is), very close to the best prices and very knowledgeable sales people. Also you support these forums.

The two projector setup is a good option. Otherwise, I'd go for the Sony and just buy a true 4k upgrade in 2-3 years. If you've never had a projector before, you will most likely be very happy with the Sony and it is great for gaming.

What type of gaming do you do? If you play any sort of FPS online then I would stay away from high input lag as it will drive you crazy.

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post #5 of 40 Old 06-14-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by avrignaud;24968993[quote=avrignaud View Post


Thank you for the input! It also occurs to me that I don't have personal experience with a JVC projector while gaming, so I should probably find a local retailer and try that out. I suppose it's possible (though unlikely) that it may not end up being as much of an issue as I suspect.

Related, I've seen folks suggest the AV Science store recommended a few times in these forums. Is that generally considered to be the best priced retailer to purchase from? Or are there other advantages to using them versus a local retailer?

Thank you again.

The AV Science store is well known to provide great service/support before and after the sale as well as offering some of the very best prices you will find. They also carry 'B' stock JVC projectors from time to time that sell for less than factory sealed units, but still come with the full manufacturer's warranty. I suggest you call Craig (AV Science salesman) at 585-671-2972 for more info and pricing. As for input lag on the JVC (or other) projectors you will generally get the least processing delays and thus the lowest lag time by turning off as many of the video processing features as possible. There was an earlier post in the JVC thread that said:


"If I disable e-Shift, Clear Black and C.M.D. then it is quite playable, to me. Maybe a smidgen slower than my previous PJ (Panasonic PT-AE2000), but that is hard to say. Likely too slow for HC FPS type of games.. With all of the image processing features on, the image looked tremendously good and sharp, but the input lag made driving around in GTA feel clearly too weird (i.e. too much / noticeable lag). "


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post #6 of 40 Old 06-14-2014, 02:14 PM
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Sent you a PM. I own a Sony and a JVC projector.

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post #7 of 40 Old 06-14-2014, 02:19 PM
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I have the Sony HW30es. Mainly chose it over the jvc b/c it was stronger in the 3d and gaming dept. The yr I bought the sony, jvc was having quality control issues with their lamps that has been fully resolved by jvc. I still mainly use my projector watching 2D programming or movies 90% of the time, but I game and watch 3d movies just enough where I have no buyers remorse. The contrast on the JVC is superior when you go to a specialized projector store and compare a sony & jvc right next to each other, but it was not a dramatic difference to me. As for lag in FPS... I never feel when I get killed it was from input lag. Rather it is me getting old, no longer having free time.
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post #8 of 40 Old 06-14-2014, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=Ron Jones;24969449]
Quote:
Originally Posted by avrignaud;24968993[quote=avrignaud View Post

The AV Science store is well known to provide great service/support before and after the sale as well as offering some of the very best prices you will find. They also carry 'B' stock JVC projectors from time to time that sell for less than factory sealed units, but still come with the full manufacturer's warranty. I suggest you call Craig (AV Science salesman) at 585-671-2972 for more info and pricing. As for input lag on the JVC (or other) projectors you will generally get the least processing delays and thus the lowest lag time by turning off as many of the video processing features as possible. There was an earlier post in the JVC thread that said:


"If I disable e-Shift, Clear Black and C.M.D. then it is quite playable, to me. Maybe a smidgen slower than my previous PJ (Panasonic PT-AE2000), but that is hard to say. Likely too slow for HC FPS type of games.. With all of the image processing features on, the image looked tremendously good and sharp, but the input lag made driving around in GTA feel clearly too weird (i.e. too much / noticeable lag). "

Thanks Ron — that helps a great deal. I'll definitely need to try it out before making a decision. Crossing my fingers that a few years brings a nice wave of high contrast, dark black, low input lag 4K projectors to choose from!
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post #9 of 40 Old 06-15-2014, 03:58 PM
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I'm going to put in another vote for a dual projector set up.


grab the jvc for the best possible movie experience(assuming that's the case)
spend 1000bux or less on a good DLP projector with ultra low lag for gaming only.


it's the same argument I use to justify winter tires. if you have twice as many, they will last twice as long. and when you buy each specifically for the purpose you will use it for, it can give you the best of both. you will not find a projector that gives as good of movie performance as the best jvc, and as good of gaming performance as a good DLP. and you DEFINITELY won't find one that's close for less money.


you could even consider an LED projector for the gaming unit. it'll be a bit more likely, but then you also remove the worry about bulb use and such. you end up with a projector that's perfect for gaming, and casual use. and one that perfect for movies. the only compromise is having a second small projector hidden somewhere at the back of the room.
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post #10 of 40 Old 06-15-2014, 11:43 PM
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What's recommended for LED 1080p gaming with low lag and good native motion to complement the JVC for movies?
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post #11 of 40 Old 06-15-2014, 11:57 PM
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If you care about contrast expect to pay at least $6000 for something new. Unfortunately LED still carries a premium and the recently released "budget" LED model from Optoma (HD91 ~$4000 MSRP) was terrible with contrast. Terrible even for DLP standards. To save some money you could look into a used LED unit from Runco (they offer the Q750i, Q650i, and LS-100D), or a unit from Vivitek (H9080FD), or Digital Projection (various models). I've owned all but a Digital Projection model. These units offer excellent PQ (with very respectable contrast) and have minimal input lag. If you choose a non LED unit this will broaden your options and will mean you'll probably save some cash. If you're interested I currently have the Runco LS-100D for sale in the classified section of this forum.
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post #12 of 40 Old 06-16-2014, 11:58 AM
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If you are going to buy a projector I would ALWAYS recommend using AVS or a local dealer that you've created a relationship with. I understand there are always possibilities that will save you a few extra dollars but that mindset (especially if it is indeed a negligable difference) is why we have so few dealers anymore. The whole windowshopping mindset has killed nearly every dealer in my area because people wanted to save a hundred bucks or so on a multi-thousand dollar product they could get online. Problem is those online places aren't providing you ANY service whereas a dealer has to pay for YOUR ability to go look at the projector to make an informed decision. Sure AVS doesn't provide that service but I think you'd be an idiot to say that they don't offer one helluva insight into ANY product with these forums and I've found that EVERYONE that works for them is spectacular in getting information, customer support and providing the latest on product issues and updates. But I still see people that would rather take a chance and roll of the dice on some random ebay guy that saves them a bit and lines the pockets of someone that has provided you NOTHING in your decision to make that sale except some money. I think of a solid local dealer or a place like AVS as an INVESTMENT in my hobby and I would much rather pay a bit more to ensure they stick around in this crappy economy than some random sales guy on ebay that is probably selling you something he shouldn't be and giving you no security or even long term support on the product. The more people keep buying that way the less chance you'll ever have of seeing properly setup demos or even forums like this of exisitng.

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post #13 of 40 Old 06-16-2014, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
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What's recommended for LED 1080p gaming with low lag and good native motion to complement the JVC for movies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If you care about contrast expect to pay at least $6000 for something new. Unfortunately LED still carries a premium and the recently released "budget" LED model from Optoma (HD91 ~$4000 MSRP) was terrible with contrast. Terrible even for DLP standards. To save some money you could look into a used LED unit from Runco (they offer the Q750i, Q650i, and LS-100D), or a unit from Vivitek (H9080FD), or Digital Projection (various models). I've owned all but a Digital Projection model. These units offer excellent PQ (with very respectable contrast) and have minimal input lag. If you choose a non LED unit this will broaden your options and will mean you'll probably save some cash. If you're interested I currently have the Runco LS-100D for sale in the classified section of this forum.
but for a secondary projector, this doesn't really apply.
the point of a dual projector set up is that you can get a projector that's great for movies and a projector that's great for gaming for a lot less money than a projector that's great for movies and gaming.

btw, I'm pretty sure the avs store had some crazy deal on the digital projection model. so maybe that's a good option too? http://www.trustedreviews.com/digita...ojector_review

I don't know what the deal is with the new jvc's, but even the x35 seems capable of exceeding commercial theater quality for deep blacks and contrast.
I don't know exactly what you're needs are, but LG's got an LED projector that has been getting good reviews in it's price range. I believe it's around 1000bux: http://www.lg.com/us/projectors/lg-P...-led-projector
but really, at this point in time, you may still be better off sticking with something like the benq 1070 and a stash of bulbs for your gaming projector. at least it's proven performance, and you can get 30 000hrs of use out of it for about the same amount of money, you'd just have to replace the bulb a few times. and what are the chances of actually getting 30 000hrs of use before you want to upgrade anyway?


so personally, I'd consider something like the jvc x35 or rs4810, or whatever the new version is, x500? as my 'movie' projector. and get a benq 1070 as my gaming/3D/casual projector. and this should be doable for about 4g(if you do the x35) to 5g.

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post #14 of 40 Old 06-16-2014, 05:35 PM
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Just because he's using it for games doesn't mean he doesn't need something that looks decent with contrast. I can't imagine playing something like Metro 2033 or similar on a BenQ W1070. There are plenty of games that look SO much better on something that can do decent contrast. I've owned so many of these cheap ~$1000 DLPs and none of them were even remotely close to the LED models I'm talking about in regards to contrast. It makes all the difference in the world to get yourself immersed into the game. With his budget he could get a JVC for movies and an LED unit I'm talking about within his budget. A B-Stock JVC from AVScience and a used LED model is an amazing combination and will fit all his needs.
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post #15 of 40 Old 06-16-2014, 05:36 PM
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but for a secondary projector, this doesn't really apply.
the point of a dual projector set up is that you can get a projector that's great for movies and a projector that's great for gaming for a lot less money than a projector that's great for movies and gaming.

btw, I'm pretty sure the avs store had some crazy deal on the digital projection model. so maybe that's a good option too? http://www.trustedreviews.com/digita...ojector_review

I don't know what the deal is with the new jvc's, but even the x35 seems capable of exceeding commercial theater quality for deep blacks and contrast.
I don't know exactly what you're needs are, but LG's got an LED projector that has been getting good reviews in it's price range. I believe it's around 1000bux: http://www.lg.com/us/projectors/lg-P...-led-projector
but really, at this point in time, you may still be better off sticking with something like the benq 1070 and a stash of bulbs for your gaming projector. at least it's proven performance, and you can get 30 000hrs of use out of it for about the same amount of money, you'd just have to replace the bulb a few times. and what are the chances of actually getting 30 000hrs of use before you want to upgrade anyway?


so personally, I'd consider something like the jvc x35 or rs4810, or whatever the new version is, x500? as my 'movie' projector. and get a benq 1070 as my gaming/3D/casual projector. and this should be doable for about 4g(if you do the x35) to 5g.

The LG LED projector has a measured light output in Game mode (i.e., 400+ lumens as per Projector Central review) that is only about 1/4 what can get from the BenQ 1070 and for gaming on a big screen (see Post #1 ) none of the low priced LED DLP projectors will be competitive with a similar priced lamp based model.

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post #16 of 40 Old 06-16-2014, 07:20 PM
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Just because he's using it for games doesn't mean he doesn't need something that looks decent with contrast. I can't imagine playing something like Metro 2033 or similar on a BenQ W1070. There are plenty of games that look SO much better on something that can do decent contrast. I've owned so many of these cheap ~$1000 DLPs and none of them were even remotely close to the LED models I'm talking about in regards to contrast. It makes all the difference in the world to get yourself immersed into the game. With his budget he could get a JVC for movies and an LED unit I'm talking about within his budget. A B-Stock JVC from AVScience and a used LED model is an amazing combination and will fit all his needs.
input lag is WAY more important than contrast for gaming, imo. truth be told, I normally crank the brightness of my games so I can see what's hiding in the shadows anyway


for my own education, what LED models are in the price range that offer better performance than the 1070? at some point I want to replace my f8500 with an led projector for my daily usage.
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great,The contrast on the JVC is superior when you go to a specialized projector store and compare a sony & jvc right next to each other, but it was not a dramatic difference to me. As for lag in FPS... I never feel when I get killed it was from input lag. Rather it is me getting old, no longer having free time.thanks [IMG]http://*******/XfuKgc[/IMG]
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post #18 of 40 Old 06-16-2014, 07:29 PM
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The LG LED projector has a measured light output in Game mode (i.e., 400+ lumens as per Projector Central review) that is only about 1/4 what can get from the BenQ 1070 and for gaming on a big screen (see Post #1 ) none of the low priced LED DLP projectors will be competitive with a similar priced lamp based model.
you may be right. I was playing COD at a friends house with my old Epson hc720 the other day that I can't imagine is spitting out more than 500lumens at this point(probably much less since it appears about half as bright as my x35 with the iris closed down) and we were probably in the 130" diagonal range. it was just projected on a white wall and everybody there loved it, then we turned off the lights and everybody asked why I wasn't still using the projector at home... the things you have to do when your buddy gets a new ps4 but only has a 32" lcd, haha


but I was unaware it was so much lower than it was rated. I just saw 1000lumens which seemed plenty bright to me. I did mention the 1070 may still be a better option(trading performance and price for convenience) and you seem to have confirmed that.


maybe it's the way I game, but I definitely need less in terms of contrast to enjoy a good game. I thought, from the reviews I'd read, that LG might be reasonable. at the very least it's promising for the future, if they keep making improvements we should have a decent 1600-2000lumen(rated) led projector in the 1k range soon
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post #19 of 40 Old 06-16-2014, 07:30 PM
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input lag is WAY more important than contrast for gaming, imo. truth be told, I normally crank the brightness of my games so I can see what's hiding in the shadows anyway


for my own education, what LED models are in the price range that offer better performance than the 1070? at some point I want to replace my f8500 with an led projector for my daily usage.
If you play FPS online sure, then contrast is probably pretty pointless to spend more money for. But for any other genre contrast matters. I think the image looks far too washed out. I never understood why the W1070 got so much attention. For almost the same price I thought the Epson 8350 had a MUCH nicer image. I suppose the 3D ability is appealing but the lack of contrast in the image really doesn't make up for the other attributes. Even behind the glasses the 3D image lacked in contrast on all of the ~$1000 DLP projectors that I've owned. IMO, unless someone NEEDS a projector, I wouldn't bother owning one if I didn't have at least $2000 to spend on one. A flat panel will almost always give better PQ until you start to get up to that $2000 projector price point.

He could get a B-Stock/Refurbished e-shift JVC for around $3200(or possibly cheaper if he went with an older model). With the remaining $4500 he could score any of the LED models I mentioned earlier for less than that on the used market. I wouldn't advocate to buy an LED model new as I think they're way overpriced for the performance you get.

Last edited by Seegs108; 06-16-2014 at 07:45 PM.
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post #20 of 40 Old 06-17-2014, 07:42 AM
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you may be right. I was playing COD at a friends house with my old Epson hc720 the other day that I can't imagine is spitting out more than 500lumens at this point(probably much less since it appears about half as bright as my x35 with the iris closed down) and we were probably in the 130" diagonal range. it was just projected on a white wall and everybody there loved it, then we turned off the lights and everybody asked why I wasn't still using the projector at home... the things you have to do when your buddy gets a new ps4 but only has a 32" lcd, haha


but I was unaware it was so much lower than it was rated. I just saw 1000lumens which seemed plenty bright to me. I did mention the 1070 may still be a better option(trading performance and price for convenience) and you seem to have confirmed that.


maybe it's the way I game, but I definitely need less in terms of contrast to enjoy a good game. I thought, from the reviews I'd read, that LG might be reasonable. at the very least it's promising for the future, if they keep making improvements we should have a decent 1600-2000lumen(rated) led projector in the 1k range soon
You might be surprised. Theater Black I was the best image mode on the HC720. Calibrated with a new lamp, it had less than 400 lumens.

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post #21 of 40 Old 06-17-2014, 09:11 AM
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Hi folks,

I'm building my first home theater (working with Dennis Erskine on the design), and am seeking opinions on the best projector for my particular needs. My primary challenge is that the theater will be used almost equally for gaming and film viewing, and input lag is a real issue on the gaming side.

I was originally aiming for one of the newer JVC projectors such as the X700 — it seemed to be everything I wanted, including what are described as fantastic black levels. However, I found in reviews that the input lag is really bad — over 120 ms. I then researched low input lag projectors, and found that the Sony VPL-HW55ES appears to also be rated quite highly, and has dedicated game modes with low input lag.

What I am struggling with is that I do not have sufficient context to know what I might be missing out on between the two examples above. One (the JVC) is around $7-8k; the Sony is closer to $3500. Has anyone experienced both and can give an opinion on image quality/contrast/etc?

Few details on how/where the projector will be used:

- Dedicated basement home theater, complete light control (ie, fully dark)
- Will be projecting to a 132" wide anamorphic screen, so projector needs to support anamorphic lens
- Ideal location for the projector (over bar counter) would give throw length of 14'10".
- 4k support (even quasi-support like the JVC eShift tech) is nice, but not 100% required right now. I imagine I might just replace the projector a few years down the road when the HDMI 2.0 spec is locked down and I have hopefully better low lag input choices available.
- Only interested in 2D film; no interest at all in 3D support.

Appreciate your thoughts on if I'd be giving up too much with the Sony or not (such that I might want to just try to deal with the high input lag on the JVC). Also appreciate any other thoughts you might be able to share, with thanks!

AV
If 2d movie viewing is your main priority I would suggest(given your budget and long term priorities) a Panasonic.

There is much more to creating a beautiful picture than just black levels,contrast and sharpness.

I have the flagship 4K Sony1000es and the Panasonic AE2000.

The Panasonic's have a unique processor(detail clarity) that analyses the low, medium and high frequency components of the image----it then applies the appropriate sharpness to these areas providing the most organic, filmic look-----areas of an image that are intended to be soft remain soft.......areas of an image that are intended to be sharp look sharp.






Combined with 16bit colour processing and it's smooth screen tech(double refraction from the crystal plates) to eliminate the black spaces between pixels ..... this very organic look is accentuated.

In my opinion.....it is the best out there when it comes to replicating an authentic 35mm "feel" to the images.

Yes the JVC's and the Sony's offer superior blacks and greater sharpness but do suffer from colour fringing/banding as well as providing a very digital(noise) look to some material .

My 2 cents.

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post #22 of 40 Old 06-17-2014, 12:33 PM
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You might be surprised. Theater Black I was the best image mode on the HC720. Calibrated with a new lamp, it had less than 400 lumens.
that doesn't surprise me at all. when I bought the x35 it's 'lower lumen rating' was the only thing that concerned me, but reading several reviews put my mind at ease. when I first set it up, with the iris fully opened, and my Epson still set up with theater black 1 and 1600hrs on the bulb, it was crazy the difference.


so yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if the theatre black 1 on mine right now puts out about 200-250lumens. when we were playing, I turned it up to living room, which seems about twice as bright, whatever that means. still noticeably dimmer than the x35 though, so I know it's not anywhere near 1000lumens, haha
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If you play FPS online sure, then contrast is probably pretty pointless to spend more money for. But for any other genre contrast matters. I think the image looks far too washed out. I never understood why the W1070 got so much attention. For almost the same price I thought the Epson 8350 had a MUCH nicer image. I suppose the 3D ability is appealing but the lack of contrast in the image really doesn't make up for the other attributes. Even behind the glasses the 3D image lacked in contrast on all of the ~$1000 DLP projectors that I've owned. IMO, unless someone NEEDS a projector, I wouldn't bother owning one if I didn't have at least $2000 to spend on one. A flat panel will almost always give better PQ until you start to get up to that $2000 projector price point.

He could get a B-Stock/Refurbished e-shift JVC for around $3200(or possibly cheaper if he went with an older model). With the remaining $4500 he could score any of the LED models I mentioned earlier for less than that on the used market. I wouldn't advocate to buy an LED model new as I think they're way overpriced for the performance you get.
I don't actually game online, ever.


please don't misunderstand that I think contrast doesn't matter when gaming. I'm just saying that it's less important. my hc720 for example. has such terrible contrast that there is no way I could enjoy watching a movie on it. after I bought my f8500, I basically just accepted that I would never use the Epson projector again, so I might as well buy a new/better one. that being said, I can't say it was 'terrible' to game on the other night. even after I've gotten used to the f8500/x35 level of contrast and blacks.


so, basically I still think he should go for the best contrast he can get, I just wouldn't trade a bit more contrast for a jump in input lag from 15-20ms to 80ms or more. I'd say if he sets a 'ceiling' of about 30ms, then get the best projector under that he should be good. we aren't talking about going from contrast ratios of 50000:1 down to 1200:1, these low lag projectors still give respectable contrast ratios


for what it's worth, I don't know what $1000 flat panel you think is out there with good contrast and picture performance, but I haven't seen it.
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post #24 of 40 Old 06-17-2014, 01:03 PM
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I don't actually game online, ever.


please don't misunderstand that I think contrast doesn't matter when gaming. I'm just saying that it's less important. my hc720 for example. has such terrible contrast that there is no way I could enjoy watching a movie on it. after I bought my f8500, I basically just accepted that I would never use the Epson projector again, so I might as well buy a new/better one. that being said, I can't say it was 'terrible' to game on the other night. even after I've gotten used to the f8500/x35 level of contrast and blacks.


so, basically I still think he should go for the best contrast he can get, I just wouldn't trade a bit more contrast for a jump in input lag from 15-20ms to 80ms or more. I'd say if he sets a 'ceiling' of about 30ms, then get the best projector under that he should be good. we aren't talking about going from contrast ratios of 50000:1 down to 1200:1, these low lag projectors still give respectable contrast ratios


for what it's worth, I don't know what $1000 flat panel you think is out there with good contrast and picture performance, but I haven't seen it.

Basically any plasma for that price will blow a projector costing that much out of the water when it comes to PQ.
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post #25 of 40 Old 06-17-2014, 08:36 PM
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Basically any plasma for that price will blow a projector costing that much out of the water when it comes to PQ.
maybe, but I have a $1000 plasma from a couple years ago that is pretty terrible, I'd say it's on par with the Epson hc720 actually. slightly better, but not much. seems like now the only options are Samsung's pentile display, and LG. I'd say the LG is about on par with the 1070, and the pentile Samsung might have better blacks/contrast, but you gotta decide if pentile is ok or not.


so I'd say for 1000, you're actually getting pretty similar quality. the choice is do you want something that's easy to use and works in ambient light, or something 4x the size.


unfortunately the days of picking up a Panasonic s60 are over
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AVS has if not always the best (usually is), very close to the best prices and very knowledgeable sales people. Also you support these forums.

The two projector setup is a good option. Otherwise, I'd go for the Sony and just buy a true 4k upgrade in 2-3 years. If you've never had a projector before, you will most likely be very happy with the Sony and it is great for gaming.

What type of gaming do you do? If you play any sort of FPS online then I would stay away from high input lag as it will drive you crazy.
I play pretty much everything except sports games. Not a competitive FPS shooter fan, but do enjoy co-op with friends, and the occasional FPS head-to-head match (again, with friends, not the random dimwits on line). My primary focus are games that have as much story as they do combat/gameplay. Think Uncharted, The Last of Us, Skyrim, Mass Effect, that sort of thing. Many shooters I'll primarily play through the single player experience just for the spectacle — cotton candy type of thing. So, I'm not worried about lag from a competitive disadvantage experience, more an annoyance/"feels wrong" perspective. I guess there's really no way to tell without heading to a retailer and spending some time on different projectors with some games. But at that point, if they've been a help I'd feel a bit more obligated to buy from them than someone else like AVS. Bit of a dilemma!
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post #27 of 40 Old 06-18-2014, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been intrigued by Sony's projectors primarily because they directly targeted the display lag issue with a dedicated gaming mode. Seems to get lag below 30 ms or so, which seems to be a good target. Earlier a Panasonic was recommended, which I'll check out.

Does anyone know of other projector brands that have a similar low lag/gaming mode? I'm surprised that JVC hasn't gone this route for one...
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post #28 of 40 Old 06-18-2014, 10:00 AM
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I play pretty much everything except sports games. Not a competitive FPS shooter fan, but do enjoy co-op with friends, and the occasional FPS head-to-head match (again, with friends, not the random dimwits on line). My primary focus are games that have as much story as they do combat/gameplay. Think Uncharted, The Last of Us, Skyrim, Mass Effect, that sort of thing. Many shooters I'll primarily play through the single player experience just for the spectacle — cotton candy type of thing. So, I'm not worried about lag from a competitive disadvantage experience, more an annoyance/"feels wrong" perspective. I guess there's really no way to tell without heading to a retailer and spending some time on different projectors with some games. But at that point, if they've been a help I'd feel a bit more obligated to buy from them than someone else like AVS. Bit of a dilemma!
from my experience(I seem like a similar type of gamer as you described yourself to be) lag was never something I even thought about until I got the Samsung f8500 plasma. it has ~120ms of lag and it was super annoying. it's like 70ms in game mode, and I believe the jvc x35 is around 80ms, and in all honesty I found those to be acceptable. I'm sure for online or competitive gaming it's a huge disadvantage, but I never get annoyed playing games on either the jvc x35 or f8500(when in game mode).
so, if this is the case, and you're about as sensitive to lag as I am(who knows really), then setting a goal of around 60ms is probably more than safe.
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post #29 of 40 Old 06-18-2014, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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from my experience(I seem like a similar type of gamer as you described yourself to be) lag was never something I even thought about until I got the Samsung f8500 plasma. it has ~120ms of lag and it was super annoying. it's like 70ms in game mode, and I believe the jvc x35 is around 80ms, and in all honesty I found those to be acceptable. I'm sure for online or competitive gaming it's a huge disadvantage, but I never get annoyed playing games on either the jvc x35 or f8500(when in game mode).
so, if this is the case, and you're about as sensitive to lag as I am(who knows really), then setting a goal of around 60ms is probably more than safe.
Thank you! Very helpful to have another gamer's touchstone! I'll mentally start aiming for around 60 ms as a bar as I explore options.
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post #30 of 40 Old 06-19-2014, 03:32 PM
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One thing to keep in mind if you were to do the two pj route and got the Benq 1070 is the rainbow effect. I use a 1070 just for 3D and I can easily see the rainbow effect if I move my eyes quickly or if there is quick movement on screen which means there is no doubt I'd see it if I were gaming on it. I will say that to me the 1070 is a nice PJ for the price and when I first got it I was actually impressed with as good the image quality is given the price

Obviously not everyone susceptible to RBE (and I envy those who aren't) so you need to keep that in mind.

When you say your theater will be completely dark do you just mean there won't be ambient light or that your walls and ceiling will be dark? I ask because to really get the most out of a projector like a JVC model (and I'd guess every other high contrast pj) you want your surfaces to be as dark as possible with little to no light reflection being able to bounce back onto the screen. My dedicated room is a darker than average grey and I always figured that was enough until I covered the walls and ceiling first in some black felt which helped and then in black velvet last year and the difference is pretty significant. I'm using an RS50.

I'm also with Seegs that a solid contrast ratio is very nice to have when gaming. I just started playing Dead Space on my PC hooked up to my Samsung D630 LCD in my room and while it looks pretty good, it is a very dark game which makes me kind of wish I was playing it on a great plasma, OLED or my RS50 to take advantage of the great black and contrast ratio.

ROB
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