Game over for High end 1080p single chip DLP? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 06-28-2014, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Game over for High end 1080p single chip DLP?

With Sony's 4k projectors becoming ever cheaper and LG releasing a 77" OLED TV, has the 0.95" 1080p DMD had its 'high end' day? If the screen size is under 100", I can't see any reason why you spend over $15k on a single chip 1080p DLP these days.
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post #2 of 40 Old 06-28-2014, 08:27 AM
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Sony has two consumer 4k projectors that are quite expensive
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post #3 of 40 Old 06-28-2014, 08:36 AM
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The day we can get matte (no reflections) 120+" OLED screens for a reasonable price that can be rolled out like a normal cinema screen it is the end of home cinema projectors, but will this happen I am not sure...

The LG 77" is not what I would call reasonable priced, but the prices will go down quite quick if LG could get some competition.

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post #4 of 40 Old 06-28-2014, 12:14 PM
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I would say that it is definitely the end of days at that price point. However, a single 0.95 chip DLP unit throws an awesome picture.
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
The day we can get matte (no reflections) 120+" OLED screens for a reasonable price that can be rolled out like a normal cinema screen it is the end of home cinema projectors, but will this happen I am not sure...

When they can make an OLED acoustically transparent then it will be the end for projectors.
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post #6 of 40 Old 06-29-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post
With Sony's 4k projectors becoming ever cheaper and LG releasing a 77" OLED TV, has the 0.95" 1080p DMD had its 'high end' day? If the screen size is under 100", I can't see any reason why you spend over $15k on a single chip 1080p DLP these days.
I'd like to see a really good comparison (or just see it myself) of the Sim2 M.150 to some of those options before jumping to any conclusions. I remember Craig and Mike saying they were very impressed with the DPI Cine 1000 and would be hard pressed to pick a favorite between it and the Sony VW600.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #7 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 06:32 AM
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The DPI is pretty much identical to several other machines out there except that DPI is running it hotter to get more light out. Its a good machine. What makes it really better than a bulb one chip DLP using the same .95 chip is the elimination of the color wheel. color wheels are not universal and selecting a color wheel is integral to the design of any one chip DLP and changing the wheel affects everything. This all goes away using three LED light sources. Abulb nd that is a big plus re the way the picture presents. One calibrates it just like a bulb single chip DLP but the picture looks totally different and better

The Sony is a 4K SXRD. The chips are different of course with different strengths and weaknesses. Also because there are 3 chips you get additional issues which for the most part are non issues. The picture looks completely different than that thrown by a bulb lit DLP. a LED lit DLP, and a bulb lit SXRD 2K and 4K machine The 4K image is more solid.

One can argue all day about what technology is better.

All these machines are not cheap and build quality is decent. But they all have design compromises to reduce costs. They all could be better.
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post #8 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 10:16 AM
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One day our cereal boxes might have a built-in TV in the back just for advertising purposes.
So that when you place it on the table, you'll have to watch ads during breakfast. You'll be able to buy the non-AD version for $1.00 more per box
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post #9 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 01:47 PM
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"Game over"? I don't think so. Sub $15K projectors have improved, but so too have premium single-chip and 3-chip DLP projectors. Most people don't get to see the most recent editions of $25 -$50K+ projectors coming off the line. These generally get sold into projects without demonstrations based on the reputation of the designer/integrator who sells and installs them. So unless your neighbor with a serious theater is part of the 1% and invites you over for dinner and a movie, it is unlikely you will get to see and appreciate the difference. But if it makes you feel better to believe that sub-$15K projectors are somehow technologically disruptive, go for it. You'd be wise, however, not to publicly compare the two categories as somehow perilously equivalent...just as you might when considering how drinkable a bottle of Woodbridge can be or how sporty a Mazda Miata is: Good values...yes; high performance...not really.

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post #10 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
"Game over"? I don't think so. Sub $15K projectors have improved, but so too have premium single-chip and 3-chip DLP projectors. Most people don't get to see the most recent editions of $25 -$50K+ projectors coming off the line. These generally get sold into projects without demonstrations based on the reputation of the designer/integrator who sells and installs them. So unless your neighbor with a serious theater is part of the 1% and invites you over for dinner and a movie, it is unlikely you will get to see and appreciate the difference. But if it makes you feel better to believe that sub-$15K projectors are somehow technologically disruptive, go for it. You'd be wise, however, not to publicly compare the two categories as somehow perilously equivalent...just as you might when considering how drinkable a bottle of Woodbridge can be or how sporty a Mazda Miata is: Good values...yes; high performance...not really.
Other than light output and lens quality what makes a 3-chip DLP better? If we look at high end single chip DLP, both bulb based and LED based I don't see how picture quality from them would be any less as a good granted they are bright enough for your screen size. If we take a look something like the Marantz VP-15S1 or Sharp XV-Z20000 I just don't see these looking "worse" than a high end 3-chip DLP. These put out the sharpest looking image out there. Pixel delineation is amazing on these units. The Konica Minolta lens does a very good job with no visible chromatic aberrations and focus at the corners is just as good as the center. ANSI contrast is 600-700:1+ and native contrast is phenomenal for DLP. I think a lot of what you're espousing about superior picture quality has to do with how our brain interprets brightness. Colors look more saturated and the picture has a bit more "pop" to it because of the added brightness. But if we were to look at an LED model in their native gamut colors will look even more saturated than a 3-Chip DLP. I don't know if I'd equate excessive brightness as better picture quality.

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post #11 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post
With Sony's 4k projectors becoming ever cheaper and LG releasing a 77" OLED TV, has the 0.95" 1080p DMD had its 'high end' day? If the screen size is under 100", I can't see any reason why you spend over $15k on a single chip 1080p DLP these days.

If your screen size is under 100", I'm not sure why you would have a projector to begin with. Many single chip DLP's are for commercial / government 24 / 7 use. So, some of these expensive single chip DLP's can offer a build quality you won't find in inexpensive projectors. I think Projection Design even drove a truck over one for a commercial!

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post #12 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 03:08 PM
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My mistake - it was Digital Projection driving a truck over a Titan -



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post #13 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 03:25 PM
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If your screen size is under 100", I'm not sure why you would have a projector to begin with. Many single chip DLP's are for commercial / government 24 / 7 use. So, some of these expensive single chip DLP's can offer a build quality you won't find in inexpensive projectors. I think Projection Design even drove a truck over one for a commercial!
I have a 64" screen and a projector. The reason being, at the time I acquired the PJ, a 64" TV cost about 6 times the price and wasn't necessarily going to look better (most I looked at were equal or worse). Today, I can get that size TV for less than another projector in the equivalent performance class as mine (allowing for advances in gear and for inflation). However, I do not plan to get a TV, as I've grown accustomed to the look of a projected image and prefer it to viewing through glass.

I realize I'm in a (probably tiny) minority, but I would like to think I'm not the only one.

ETA: Of course, in the high-end projector world, I can see where I would be in an even tinier minority (but it won't deter me from getting the best PJ I can afford when I decide to replace my current one).

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post #14 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 03:32 PM
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There are quite a few folks with smaller screens. In fact I started out this hobby with a 92" diagonal screen myself.


Trust me, I'm sure there a few guys here that think my 128" diagonal screen is tiny !

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post #15 of 40 Old 06-30-2014, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
"Game over"? I don't think so. Sub $15K projectors have improved, but so too have premium single-chip and 3-chip DLP projectors. Most people don't get to see the most recent editions of $25 -$50K+ projectors coming off the line. These generally get sold into projects without demonstrations based on the reputation of the designer/integrator who sells and installs them. So unless your neighbor with a serious theater is part of the 1% and invites you over for dinner and a movie, it is unlikely you will get to see and appreciate the difference. But if it makes you feel better to believe that sub-$15K projectors are somehow technologically disruptive, go for it. You'd be wise, however, not to publicly compare the two categories as somehow perilously equivalent...just as you might when considering how drinkable a bottle of Woodbridge can be or how sporty a Mazda Miata is: Good values...yes; high performance...not really.

Having a 1% friend and seen his $70K setup, I could not disagree more with this assertion.
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post #16 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 04:41 AM
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While $70k sounds like a lot, it goes very quickly if you're including the room construction in a custom HT. A relatively small percentage of that $70k might have gone to the actual equipment, $50k of that could easily be in the room construction/furnishings.

What I'm saying is that "$70k" setup, may only have a $5-10k projector.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #17 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 05:33 AM
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While $70k sounds like a lot, it goes very quickly if you're including the room construction in a custom HT. A relatively small percentage of that $70k might have gone to the actual equipment, $50k of that could easily be in the room construction/furnishings.

What I'm saying is that "$70k" setup, may only have a $5-10k projector.
Exactly! I have seen a $100,000+ home theatre (the projector was later seriously ungraded) and the image at that time was nothing special. Many here had better images for a fraction of that cost. If you were to spend only a few thousand dollars on a dark ceiling and walls and covered your floor with dark carpeting and bought a Nero-3D 2 projector and used a $500 Oppo as your source you'd be under $70,000 and I doubt any projector in the $5,000 to $50,000 would produce a better image. That's not to say they wouldn't come close for a lot less money but if you want the best with no real compromises and can afford it then IMO this is the way to go. I feel DLP still has some life left in it. Sometimes a technology falls out of favour for a while; however, down the road something changes (some upgrade or innovative idea is implemented) and it makes a comeback. DLP still has a major advantage with 3D and for those who are interested in 3D it deserves to be considered.

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post #18 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 07:30 AM
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"Game over"? I don't think so. Sub $15K projectors have improved, but so too have premium single-chip and 3-chip DLP projectors. Most people don't get to see the most recent editions of $25 -$50K+ projectors coming off the line. These generally get sold into projects without demonstrations based on the reputation of the designer/integrator who sells and installs them. So unless your neighbor with a serious theater is part of the 1% and invites you over for dinner and a movie, it is unlikely you will get to see and appreciate the difference. But if it makes you feel better to believe that sub-$15K projectors are somehow technologically disruptive, go for it. You'd be wise, however, not to publicly compare the two categories as somehow perilously equivalent...just as you might when considering how drinkable a bottle of Woodbridge can be or how sporty a Mazda Miata is: Good values...yes; high performance...not really.
Your end comparison is completely farse and has absolutely nothing to do with the comparison of sub $15K projectors to cost no object 3-chip designs. The biggest benefit of the cost no object designs are their light output and lens quality, period. The first advantage is only if you need that kind of light output and the second has diminishing returns compared to some of the sub $15K projectors on the market. But those sub $15K projectors wipe the floor with the cost no object projectors with contrast performance. Unfortunately most of what I've seen from the cost no object 3-chip crowd (and I've seen almost all of them) is a price point pinned to a name and the fact that they are lower volume and geared toward high end custom install where they can get away with it. Do they look great, absolutely, but they fall short in several areas when you don't need a light canon in the room.

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post #19 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 11:09 AM
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Your end comparison is completely farse and has absolutely nothing to do with the comparison of sub $15K projectors to cost no object 3-chip designs. The biggest benefit of the cost no object designs are their light output and lens quality, period. The first advantage is only if you need that kind of light output and the second has diminishing returns compared to some of the sub $15K projectors on the market. But those sub $15K projectors wipe the floor with the cost no object projectors with contrast performance. Unfortunately most of what I've seen from the cost no object 3-chip crowd (and I've seen almost all of them) is a price point pinned to a name and the fact that they are lower volume and geared toward high end custom install where they can get away with it. Do they look great, absolutely, but they fall short in several areas when you don't need a light canon in the room.

I still prefer my Lumis to the new JVC's, picture wise, overall. So does my wife. But, if you told her the cost of both, she wouldn't think the Lumis looks " that much better ". These days there are all sorts of great projectors - from $4K to $40K !!

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post #20 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 11:15 AM
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Certainly not saying that personal preferences are wrong, only that comparing something like a Sim2 to a Sony 600 or JVC X900 and saying its like comparing a 911 to a Miata is ridiculous.

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post #21 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 11:19 AM
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Certainly not saying that personal preferences are wrong, only that comparing something like a Sim2 to a Sony 600 or JVC X900 and saying its like comparing a 911 to a Miata is ridiculous.

That's true. I have wine in my cellar from $20 / bottle to $ 200 / bottle. I don't compare them to each other either. One's for that casual BBQ. They other's for filet mignon for two on your anniversary !

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post #22 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Judging from the prices on Ebay, I would say that a 'vintage' Sim2 doesn't age quite as gracefully as a bordeaux

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post #23 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 12:48 PM
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Not quite, but they hold their value better than most projectors. I find it funny how last year's models of popular lines like the JVC and Sony seem to drop like a rock in price on the used market like all of a sudden they aren't very good anymore because of a slight uptick in one or two areas in the new model. If you don't want to be on the bleeding edge its a video paradise out there for the money.
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post #24 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 01:19 PM
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My mistake - it was Digital Projection driving a truck over a Titan -
Now we finally know where all those B-Stock projectors come from.


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post #25 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 02:57 PM
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Now we finally know where all those B-Stock projectors come from.

Now I'll be dreaming of a Titan B stock in my Christmas stocking.................. not that there is such a thing. Ever heard of a Rolex or Rolls Royce b stock? Me neither !

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post #26 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 03:10 PM
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Not quite, but they hold their value better than most projectors. I find it funny how last year's models of popular lines like the JVC and Sony seem to drop like a rock in price on the used market like all of a sudden they aren't very good anymore because of a slight uptick in one or two areas in the new model. If you don't want to be on the bleeding edge its a video paradise out there for the money.
Agreed. For what I paid on my b stock JVC RS4810 and its jaw dropping performance, an amazing value really. Even at new price, it's still/was a very good value.

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post #27 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 03:13 PM
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I still prefer my Lumis to the new JVC's, picture wise, overall. So does my wife. But, if you told her the cost of both, she wouldn't think the Lumis looks " that much better ". These days there are all sorts of great projectors - from $4K to $40K !!
Does the Lumis just have a sharper image compared to the JVC and/or is it an issue of getting more light output for your viewing environment?

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post #28 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 03:27 PM
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Motion looks better to me on DLP. I've never left the DLP camp since 2002. So, I'm still " hooked on the look ", you could say. And there is a subtle but different look to 3 chip DLP that I like ( like the nuances in a 20 year old top Bordeaux ) compared to other projector technologies !

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post #29 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 04:01 PM
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DLP has been a standard for a long time in the commercial cinema, and for good reason. Sony's attempt to uproot Barco, Christie Digital and NEC failed miserably. LCD and lCos are not even on the same playing field as a 3-chip DLP projector. I just read a few days ago that Barco and NEC was going back to TI DLP for all there light engine processing. Christie only makes DLP cinema projectors, they offer some projectors with other than DLP, but not many, and none for the big screen. Barco experimented with 3lcd for it's 6P laser projector and it failed to generate the picture the TI DLP produced.

When Sony came out with there Silicon X-tal Reflective Display(SXRD) on there pro SRXR320P projectors they even had the balls to compare a SXRD against a 2K DLP Christie. SXRD is 4K, that was a lame attempt by Sony. 50 out of 70 preferred the DLP over the SXRD that was at the cinema screening. Go figure.

Sony 4K SXRD Panel
4096 H x 2160 V
8,847,360 pixels

2K DLP
2048 H x 1080 V
2,211,840 pixels

Standard Def
720 H x 480 V
345,600 pixels

Sony does not have a cheap business model with any product.
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post #30 of 40 Old 07-01-2014, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Other than light output and lens quality what makes a 3-chip DLP better? If we look at high end single chip DLP, both bulb based and LED based I don't see how picture quality from them would be any less as a good granted they are bright enough for your screen size. If we take a look something like the Marantz VP-15S1 or Sharp XV-Z20000 I just don't see these looking "worse" than a high end 3-chip DLP. These put out the sharpest looking image out there. Pixel delineation is amazing on these units. The Konica Minolta lens does a very good job with no visible chromatic aberrations and focus at the corners is just as good as the center. ANSI contrast is 600-700:1+ and native contrast is phenomenal for DLP. I think a lot of what you're espousing about superior picture quality has to do with how our brain interprets brightness. Colors look more saturated and the picture has a bit more "pop" to it because of the added brightness. But if we were to look at an LED model in their native gamut colors will look even more saturated than a 3-Chip DLP. I don't know if I'd equate excessive brightness as better picture quality.
A 3-chip DLP can produce 35 trillion colors, that's why. A single Chip DLP is 16.7 million colors. I lose color count after red, blue, green, yellow, brown, orange, but that's just me.
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