2014 CEDIA: What LED/Laser Projectors are coming from Big Boys? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 57 Old 07-11-2014, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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2014 CEDIA: What LED/Laser Projectors are coming from Big Boys?

I am sick and tired of changing out Bulbs on my Epson 8100.

I've probably been through a total of 8 bulbs since I bought it 3-4 years ago.

It's just such a pain as you watch the image get darker and darker and then POOF.

Does anyone know if Cedia 2014 will feature some REAL home theatre projectors with LED light sources like Epson or Panasonic?

The biggest problem with projectors is the bulb ... it reminds me of smart phones before they came up with Gorilla Glass, where you would scratch the screen within days of getting the new phone. A problem that is just begging for a solution.

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post #2 of 57 Old 07-11-2014, 06:34 AM
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There are several laser projectors coming but you could buy a minimum of 20 epson toys (the toy is to emphasize the price differential) plus 8 spare bulbs for each plus pay a lackey to change the bulbs for you. I assume your budget will not be a problem in removing you from bulb hell.

Epson itself is coming out with a machine priced around $8K, which uses a spinning phosphor wheel lit by a tiny blue laser.

Its a 2K machine with fake 4K provided by e shift and the chip technology is reflective LCD which is LCOS. Expected to ship sometime in 2015.

LED is a solution but plan on paying more too than your present Epson.

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post #3 of 57 Old 07-11-2014, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpctv02 View Post
I am sick and tired of changing out Bulbs on my Epson 8100.

I've probably been through a total of 8 bulbs since I bought it 3-4 years ago.

It's just such a pain as you watch the image get darker and darker and then POOF.

Does anyone know if Cedia 2014 will feature some REAL home theatre projectors with LED light sources like Epson or Panasonic?

The biggest problem with projectors is the bulb ... it reminds me of smart phones before they came up with Gorilla Glass, where you would scratch the screen within days of getting the new phone. A problem that is just begging for a solution.
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post #4 of 57 Old 07-11-2014, 09:57 AM
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AV Science is also coming out with a new laser projector this year. But it belongs in the $ 20,000+ projector forum ( and worth every penny I might add ! ) !!

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post #5 of 57 Old 07-11-2014, 10:25 AM
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Gentlemen. This is a person stepping up from an Epson. Maybe he won the lottery. For most the new Epson will be a major step up If Epson can actually deliver the product it should be a price point killer. If it is as reported a LCOS, many who saw the LCOS projector several years ago that it was ground breaking and would beat the JVC chips in performance. But I think that might be a lot of hype too. The big deal here is the spinning phosphor wheel which should give a user about 20,000 hours before it needs replacement. And it should have a lot more lumens than the JVCs but once again its all vapor ware until it starts shipping. Will Epson show it at Cedia? They might show a production prototype Basically the past LCOS machine lit by a small green laser and a spinning phosphor wheel and without E shift

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post #6 of 57 Old 07-11-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Gentlemen. This is a person stepping up from an Epson. Maybe he won the lottery. For most the new Epson will be a major step up If Epson can actually deliver the product it should be a price point killer. If it is as reported a LCOS, many who saw the LCOS projector several years ago that it was ground breaking and would beat the JVC chips in performance. But I think that might be a lot of hype too. The big deal here is the spinning phosphor wheel which should give a user about 20,000 before it needs replacement. And it should have a lot more lumens than the JVCs but once again its all vapor ware until it starts shipping. will Epson show it at Cedia? They might show a production prototype Basically the past LCOS machine lit by a small green laser and a spinning phosphort wheel.twithout E shift

It will be interesting to see if Epson does deliver this, but I always take a wait and see attitude when it comes to new products. 8 1/2 weeks until Cedia !

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post #7 of 57 Old 07-11-2014, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Gentlemen. This is a person stepping up from an Epson. Maybe he won the lottery. For most the new Epson will be a major step up If Epson can actually deliver the product it should be a price point killer. If it is as reported a LCOS, many who saw the LCOS projector several years ago that it was ground breaking and would beat the JVC chips in performance. But I think that might be a lot of hype too. The big deal here is the spinning phosphor wheel which should give a user about 20,000 before it needs replacement. And it should have a lot more lumens than the JVCs but once again its all vapor ware until it starts shipping. will Epson show it at Cedia? They might show a production prototype Basically the past LCOS machine lit by a small green laser and a spinning phosphort wheel.twithout E shift
I haven't seen much on the laser tech. Why do you think it might have more lumens than the JVC, bulb based units?

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post #8 of 57 Old 07-12-2014, 08:00 AM
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The Sony pro machine which uses a small low powered blue lase to ignite a spinning white phosphor wheel is rated at 4000 lumens. The coming NEC machine, a commercial theater machine which will be after market modified ti improve on off contrast and lack ref level is rated at about 6K lumens. Unlike bulbs, where multiple bu;bs are needed for high lumens, one spinning wheel can handle most anything. And its is laser and can be marketed as such with de minimus regulatory problems. And no speckle issues which really haven't be solved for direct laser illumination of the screen. In fact some of these spinning phosphor wheel machines actually use the blue laser to directly provide blue to the screen.

The more light that hits the chips, the more the on off will deteriorate. You can iris down the light, you can dynamically iris down the light, or you can improve the native on off. JVC has a leg up on Sony in native but even JVC had to give a BIG me too and added a dynamic iris so it could compete in the numbers game.

Now along comes Epson with its latest tweaking of reflective LCD technology. Will it be a breakthrough in native on off?

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post #9 of 57 Old 07-12-2014, 10:34 PM
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Any Consumer 4K DLP machines coming from Sim2 etc?
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post #10 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 04:28 AM
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Any Consumer 4K DLP machines coming from Sim2 etc?
Probably 3-chip DLP 4K projectors for rich consumers. Mid-range single chip 4K models are probably still a year to two away.

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post #11 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 04:56 AM
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The Sony pro machine which uses a small low powered blue lase to ignite a spinning white phosphor wheel is rated at 4000 lumens. The coming NEC machine, a commercial theater machine which will be after market modified ti improve on off contrast and lack ref level is rated at about 6K lumens. Unlike bulbs, where multiple bu;bs are needed for high lumens, one spinning wheel can handle most anything. And its is laser and can be marketed as such with de minimus regulatory problems. And no speckle issues which really haven't be solved for direct laser illumination of the screen. In fact some of these spinning phosphor wheel machines actually use the blue laser to directly provide blue to the screen.

The more light that hits the chips, the more the on off will deteriorate. You can iris down the light, you can dynamically iris down the light, or you can improve the native on off. JVC has a leg up on Sony in native but even JVC had to give a BIG me too and added a dynamic iris so it could compete in the numbers game.

Now along comes Epson with its latest tweaking of reflective LCD technology. Will it be a breakthrough in native on off?

When Epson was showing their lamp based LCoS prototype projector at CEDIA (gee - that was first shown 3 years ago) it had similar native CR to JVC projectors but the addition of a dynamic iris set it apart from the JVC models of that time. Now that JVC has added a DI to their projectors I doubt that any new Epson LCoS (excuse me 3LCD Reflective) models will be any better than the current JVCs in terms of CR. However, it they are actually using a laser/phosphor wheel light engine then perhaps they could be dimming the laser instead of, or in addition to, having a DI and this could allow them to claim a higher dynamic contrast than JVC, but that would be of little real world value. If Kraine is correct about these new Epson models, then they would seem to be similar, in terms of pseudo 4K and LCoS to the JVCs, but with a laser-phosphor light engine. However, it appears they will be priced (street price) like a mid-range JVC eshift model and may have street prices starting a couple $2K above a RS4910 replacement so it all comes down to how bad you want a solid state light engine, how they will actually perform and what other features may be missing (e.g., lens memory) as compared to the JVCs. Like you, I don't have the warm fuzzies about Epson's ability to actually deliver on LCoS projectors given they showed up at CEDIA Expo in 2011 and again in 2012 with prototypes saying they would have production models for sale in a few months. I would hope that if they do announce new LCoS models then they do have the issues fully worked out for the manufacturing of LCoS panels and are actually ready to move forward.


As for the need to license eShift from JVC, I don't know that is the case since it was Hughes that came up with diagonal pixel shift technique a decade ago for increased display resolution and this was used with single-chip DLP 1080p projectors. I assume JVC added some unique features that they were able to patent but Epson may be able to come up with their own solutions, but perhaps still encumbered by the old Hughes work (patents?).


I do believe that the whole playing field may change if some manufacturer(s) brings out a good quality native 4K/UHD projector in this same price range ($6K to $8K) and if that happens there will probably be less market for the pseudo-4K projectors in this already small market segment, especially among the informed consumers.

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post #12 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
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I do believe that the whole playing field may change if some manufacturer(s) brings out a good quality native 4K/UHD projector in this same price range ($6K to $8K) and if that happens there will probably be less market for the pseudo-4K projectors in this already small market segment, especially among the informed consumers.
Lets hope we don`t see any pseudo-8K from JVC on their first 4K native machines...
Pixel shifting is marketing and just a numbers game.
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post #13 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 06:36 AM
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I don't particularly care about 4K (horrors); however, I have been using a hybrid laser/LED projector for several months and I'm now firmly in that camp. Not having to be concerned about regularly recalibrating and/or replacing lamps is a major feature IMO. Being able to use your projector whenever you want and for how long you want is a relief. The freedom to use your projector as a T.V. is definitely worth something when considering price and if Epson offers the same warranties as they have offered with their previous projectors then I'm interested.

The big problem I foresee for Epson and any other manufacturer is the 3D ability of these new non-DLP projectors. I'm still skeptical that any non-DLP will be able to exhibit ghost-free, bright 3D. I'm willing to keep an open mind but I'll be very cautious.
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post #14 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 08:01 AM
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I don't particularly care about 4K (horrors); however, I have been using a hybrid laser/LED projector for several months and I'm now firmly in that camp. Not having to be concerned about regularly recalibrating and/or replacing lamps is a major feature IMO. Being able to use your projector whenever you want and for how long you want is a relief. The freedom to use your projector as a T.V. is definitely worth something when considering price and if Epson offers the same warranties as they have offered with their previous projectors then I'm interested.

The big problem I foresee for Epson and any other manufacturer is the 3D ability of these new non-DLP projectors. I'm still skeptical that any non-DLP will be able to exhibit ghost-free, bright 3D. I'm willing to keep an open mind but I'll be very cautious.
Can I ask what model of LED/Laser projector you are now currently using
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So why do they use a spinning phosphor wheel? Does the phosphor material lose phosphorescence if continuously lit and pulsing the laser creates too much flicker?
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post #16 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 07:11 PM
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Based on CRTs and plasma displays, phosphor seems to help create a more natural image IMO...so this could be very interesting and promising with a lcos yet.

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post #17 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 09:45 PM
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Lets hope we don`t see any pseudo-8K from JVC on their first 4K native machines...
Pixel shifting is marketing and just a numbers game.
it can also be turned off if you don't like it, so I'd say I'd HOPE to see it on their first real UHD machine.
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post #18 of 57 Old 07-13-2014, 11:16 PM
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it can also be turned off if you don't like it, so I'd say I'd HOPE to see it on their first real UHD machine.
It can't be entirely turned off, the "mechanical"-glass/object will always be in the lightpath, whether its on or off.

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post #19 of 57 Old 07-14-2014, 03:41 AM
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Lets hope we don`t see any pseudo-8K from JVC on their first 4K native machines...
Pixel shifting is marketing and just a numbers game.
It will only be smart if they do. I'm sure they want to sell more units with eshift 8K units. I don't see any reasons why it will be a bad idea. Just like now, if you don't like it on turn it off. Just like 3D, if you don't watch 3D, don't use it.
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post #20 of 57 Old 07-14-2014, 05:59 AM
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Any Consumer 4K DLP machines coming from Sim2 etc?
Should be, but will be high end.

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post #21 of 57 Old 07-14-2014, 07:00 AM
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Very very expensive.

Ron. JVC I don't think owns the e-shift process nor the element and driver needed to execute it. They I do believe are licensees themselves. but do have implementation elements which vary with mixed results, year to year, which are proprietary.

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post #22 of 57 Old 07-14-2014, 08:31 AM
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Based on CRTs and plasma displays, phosphor seems to help create a more natural image IMO...so this could be very interesting and promising with a lcos yet.
The reason plasma and crt look more natural is because of a raster display? I don't see how this will change anything other than no maintenance.
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post #23 of 57 Old 07-14-2014, 10:58 PM
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You see almost straight at the light source with a plasma(which is a BIG +), the fast respond time of phosphor and each pixel capable of represent individual color is also a BIG +
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post #24 of 57 Old 07-15-2014, 06:07 AM
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Let's examine the spinning phosphor wheel. What is it? Why does it spin. What kind of light, wavelength spectrum band width, etc etc comes off of a burning phosphor. I am no expert but will now start some research. There have been courses and presentations at Infocom on this technology which is held I think under various competing patents. There are patents out there which can be researched.

It is clear that other than the blue which goes from the laser through the chip (twice) and could be called non extracted or primary light, red and green is extracted (by a form of diachromatic filtration) from the light generated by the burning phosphor on the wheel. The blue can pass through the wheel through a slit or around it using a beam splitter. Each spot of phosphor will be ignited by the laser and will quickly start to tail off (extinguish) until it is reignited on the next revolution. None of this is like a plasma or CRT in the sense there are not 3 separate phosphors (one each for R,G, and B), called 3P light, and the light emitted from each spot of phosphor does not directly hit your peepers. The light is heavily filtered to produce R and G. Because its R and G, the wheel doesn't need to produce white and production of a yellow light would produce the most efficient production of R and G. OK Its off to do some research or maybe but highly unlikely, an expert who actually knows (took the courses, attended the presentations, works in the art, can chime in. They are out there. Maybe Scott can come up with an expert and do a pod cast. Sooner or later this technology will be commonplace in all but the cheapest projectors. It is the wave of the future. But at present it is impracticable for 1000 Lumens class projectors. Heat is not a real issue and ventilation is really not required via air exhaust. However, noise is an issue from the fans and it would seem a hush box or booth will be required. There are other problems that needed solving for this technology and some of which are related to the high for HT use light output. early attempts at using this technology resulted in machines with low contrast and inability to reach good calibrations.


NEC has a machine coming out that solves most of these problems. The one weakness is more light than even a big boy needs and contrast levels which aren't impressive given the performance levels of cheap HT machines. Fine for commercial theaters. So the NEC base provides a base machine for the projection industry to modify through carefully designed apertures to lower the light and raise the contrast. This is a DCI machines and comes with a DCI server. You need to obtain content and you will need to pay for it and your access will be limited to short periods of time (days etc). But it will be obtainable and legally I might add.


The NEC machine is rated as being able to light a 33 ft wide 1.8 gain screen at 14 ft lamberts.

Few big boys have screen this large. The projector is rated a a low 1750 to one on off contrast. The machine is three chip DLP (.69) with a true 2K resolution of 2048 x 1080. anyhow the contrast level for commercial theaters is adequate, for HT it won't fly. The perfect storm arises and projector companies can modify the NEC machine by the addition of an aperture place (nothing simple in design here) to cut down the light and raise the contrast. Ideally, one can raise the contrast substantially so it approaches say 5000 to one (I am just guessing) and light up a 20 ft wude screen with a gain of 1.0 or even less to allowe for acoustical transparency.Plus a low gain screen reduces throw requirements.

In a commercial theater, multiple lamps are used and this presents all sorts of problems. The spinning wheel is the future of affordable commercial theater usage. Is it the best possible? Probably not until we get direct three beam laser. Called 3P light. That is three lasers, one for each chip. Coming, but big big bucks especially at 4K and not problem free.

Feel free to correct my limited knowledge. I am gearing up.

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post #25 of 57 Old 07-15-2014, 07:43 AM
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Let's examine the spinning phosphor wheel. What is it? Why does it spin. What kind of light, wavelength spectrum band width, etc etc comes off of a burning phosphor. I am no expert but will now start some research. There have been courses and presentations at Infocom on this technology which is held I think under various competing patents. There are patents out there which can be researched.

It is clear that other than the blue which goes from the laser through the chip (twice) and could be called non extracted or primary light, red and green is extracted (by a form of diachromatic filtration) from the light generated by the burning phosphor on the wheel. The blue can pass through the wheel through a slit or around it using a beam splitter. Each spot of phosphor will be ignited by the laser and will quickly start to tail off (extinguish) until it is reignited on the next revolution. None of this is like a plasma or CRT in the sense there are not 3 separate phosphors (one each for R,G, and B), called 3P light, and the light emitted from each spot of phosphor does not directly hit your peepers. The light is heavily filtered to produce R and G. Because its R and G, the wheel doesn't need to produce white and production of a yellow light would produce the most efficient production of R and G. OK Its off to do some research or maybe but highly unlikely, an expert who actually knows (took the courses, attended the presentations, works in the art, can chime in. They are out there. Maybe Scott can come up with an expert and do a pod cast. Sooner or later this technology will be commonplace in all but the cheapest projectors. It is the wave of the future. But at present it is impracticable for 1000 Lumens class projectors. Heat is not a real issue and ventilation is really not required via air exhaust. However, noise is an issue from the fans and it would seem a hush box or booth will be required. There are other problems that needed solving for this technology and some of which are related to the high for HT use light output. early attempts at using this technology resulted in machines with low contrast and inability to reach good calibrations.


NEC has a machine coming out that solves most of these problems. The one weakness is more light than even a big boy needs and contrast levels which aren't impressive given the performance levels of cheap HT machines. Fine for commercial theaters. So the NEC base provides a base machine for the projection industry to modify through carefully designed apertures to lower the light and raise the contrast. This is a DCI machines and comes with a DCI server. You need to obtain content and you will need to pay for it and your access will be limited to short periods of time (days etc). But it will be obtainable and legally I might add.


The NEC machine is rated as being able to light a 33 ft wide 1.8 gain screen at 14 ft lamberts.

Few big boys have screen this large. The projector is rated a a low 1750 to one on off contrast. The machine is three chip DLP (.89) with a true 2K resolution of 2048 x 1080. anyhow the contrast level for commercial theaters is adequate, for HT it won't fly. The perfect storm arises and projector companies can modify the NEC machine by the addition of an aperture place (nothing simple in design here) to cut down the light and raise the contrast. Ideally, one can raise the contrast substantially so it approaches say 5000 to one (I am just guessing) and light up a 20 ft wude screen with a gain of 1.0 or even less to allowe for acoustical transparency.Plus a low gain screen reduces throw requirements.

In a commercial theater, multiple lamps are used and this presents all sorts of problems. The spinning wheel is the future of affordable commercial theater usage. Is it the best possible? Probably not until we get direct three beam laser. Called 3P light. That is three lasers, one for each chip. Coming, but big big bucks especially at 4K and not problem free.

Feel free to correct my limited knowledge. I am gearing up.

Hey Mark,
From my understanding and talking to sony engineers there is multiple way that the Blue laser can be turned in to a white light.

The way process laser hits a mirror then off to a yellow spinning phosphor.

Other methods are also using a combination of a mirror and a yellow phosphor.
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post #26 of 57 Old 07-15-2014, 07:45 AM
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Here is a great video of bmw showing off the blue laser hitting a yellow phosphor for there head lights

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Obviously, in light engine design, mirrors may be necessary for economy of space. There are machines out there that use a phosphor disc with a slit to pass the blue primary straight from the laser to the chip by straight I mean as a direct or P source, mirrors still mean direct in the context I am using it. And these I think use one DLP chip and a color wheel to convert the yellow phospher to red and green. I do think we will see most three chip machines using either Lcos or DLP. The Sony is obviously using Lcos as I expect will the coming Epson and the Nec uses three DLPs. Anything using three DLPs will be much more expensive than ones using Lcos chips. God bless TI.

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well done,we will see most three chip machines using both Lcos and DLP. The Sony is obviously using Lcos as I expect the coming Epson and the Nec uses three DLPs. Anything using three DLPs will be much more expensive than Lcos machines.thanks[IMG]http://*******/rfX8Ga[/IMG]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Let's examine the spinning phosphor wheel. What is it? Why does it spin. What kind of light, wavelength spectrum band width, etc etc comes off of a burning phosphor. I am no expert but will now start some research. There have been courses and presentations at Infocom on this technology which is held I think under various competing patents. There are patents out there which can be researched.

It is clear that other than the blue which goes from the laser through the chip (twice) and could be called non extracted or primary light, red and green is extracted (by a form of diachromatic filtration) from the light generated by the burning phosphor on the wheel. The blue can pass through the wheel through a slit or around it using a beam splitter. Each spot of phosphor will be ignited by the laser and will quickly start to tail off (extinguish) until it is reignited on the next revolution. None of this is like a plasma or CRT in the sense there are not 3 separate phosphors (one each for R,G, and B), called 3P light, and the light emitted from each spot of phosphor does not directly hit your peepers. The light is heavily filtered to produce R and G. Because its R and G, the wheel doesn't need to produce white and production of a yellow light would produce the most efficient production of R and G. OK Its off to do some research or maybe but highly unlikely, an expert who actually knows (took the courses, attended the presentations, works in the art, can chime in. They are out there. Maybe Scott can come up with an expert and do a pod cast. Sooner or later this technology will be commonplace in all but the cheapest projectors. It is the wave of the future. But at present it is impracticable for 1000 Lumens class projectors. Heat is not a real issue and ventilation is really not required via air exhaust. However, noise is an issue from the fans and it would seem a hush box or booth will be required. There are other problems that needed solving for this technology and some of which are related to the high for HT use light output. early attempts at using this technology resulted in machines with low contrast and inability to reach good calibrations.


NEC has a machine coming out that solves most of these problems. The one weakness is more light than even a big boy needs and contrast levels which aren't impressive given the performance levels of cheap HT machines. Fine for commercial theaters. So the NEC base provides a base machine for the projection industry to modify through carefully designed apertures to lower the light and raise the contrast. This is a DCI machines and comes with a DCI server. You need to obtain content and you will need to pay for it and your access will be limited to short periods of time (days etc). But it will be obtainable and legally I might add.


The NEC machine is rated as being able to light a 33 ft wide 1.8 gain screen at 14 ft lamberts.

Few big boys have screen this large. The projector is rated a a low 1750 to one on off contrast. The machine is three chip DLP (.89) with a true 2K resolution of 2048 x 1080. anyhow the contrast level for commercial theaters is adequate, for HT it won't fly. The perfect storm arises and projector companies can modify the NEC machine by the addition of an aperture place (nothing simple in design here) to cut down the light and raise the contrast. Ideally, one can raise the contrast substantially so it approaches say 5000 to one (I am just guessing) and light up a 20 ft wude screen with a gain of 1.0 or even less to allowe for acoustical transparency.Plus a low gain screen reduces throw requirements.

In a commercial theater, multiple lamps are used and this presents all sorts of problems. The spinning wheel is the future of affordable commercial theater usage. Is it the best possible? Probably not until we get direct three beam laser. Called 3P light. That is three lasers, one for each chip. Coming, but big big bucks especially at 4K and not problem free.

Feel free to correct my limited knowledge. I am gearing up.

The NEC throws a killer image - even with Blu Ray as a source material. FYI - the DMD's are 0.69" DLP chips.

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Thanks for catching my typo. I hope to spend considerable time with one very soon. It will be interesting to see the contrast improvement with an aperture plate addition.

As for even with a blu ray source, it is only a 2K machine and there is no point in feeding it a higher resolution source. What the point is feeding it a true 2K DCI source. Its a DCI machine, that's why it costs so much and I think no matter how great it throws a blu ray source, the only point of the machine and investing in it is for very large screens with DCI source material. For a smaller screen, say less than 12 ft wide, the light is way more than one needs and no matter the small size of a fixed stop to cut it down and increase the contrast, the contrast won't approach what less expensive machines can throw. Its for the big boys who want say a 16 ft wide, unity gain screen, and a substantially better picture then they could see in the best commercial 2K theater. The color space is substantially wider and that to me is a primary point in going for a DCI machine, That and the ability to see the same sources as a commercial theater shows. Its not a purchase the hobbyist should stretch for. It fills a need at for a big boy what is a very reasonable price. At a noise level of 54 db, you need to isolate it from your media room or dedicated theater watching area. The lens must be selected for the application (throw distance and the screen gain already in place unless starting with a new screen).

Almost every projector out there shows a great blue ray image. The key is the set up, the room conditions, and the right size and gain screen. This means NO gain higher than unity. Not 1.1, certainly not 1.3. Not for this machine unless you are going for a 28 ft wide screen or so.
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