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post #1 of 60 Old 07-26-2014, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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How much black level I can get from PJ ?

Hi every one..



Since I am a kuro member ( God bless it soul :-D)



I was wondering, if I prepare a pat cave room, and a decent projector screen, with a projector costing 5000$-10000$ for example any latest JVCs pj

( how much black level I will get, since my kuro PRO 101 reached 0.0005fL)
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post #2 of 60 Old 07-26-2014, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mks_95 View Post
Hi every one..



Since I am a kuro member ( God bless it soul :-D)



I was wondering, if I prepare a pat cave room, and a decent projector screen, with a projector costing 5000$-10000$ for example any latest JVCs pj

( how much black level I will get, since my kuro PRO 101 reached 0.0005fL)
How good is your room? If you have really good light control then you can have really great blacks with the right projector. Great light control means, not only controlling the light coming into the room, but also controlling the light from the largest light source in the room and that is the screen. Most think they have full light control, when they can control the light coming into the room, but that is only half the battle. A good projector and the right room, will make you forget about that Kuro. This is coming from a guy that sees a 60" Kuro all the time. If you would like to talk projectors and pricing, give us a call.

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post #3 of 60 Old 07-26-2014, 09:16 AM
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It depends on screen size. For instance if you had a screen that's 92" diagonal, that has a surface area of 25 feet. The JVC projectors this year can put out about 900 lumens and has a measured contrast ratio of 350000:1 with the DI engaged. This means you'll get a peak white level of 36ftL and a black level of .000102ftL, or a darker black level than your Kuro by a large margin and it will only get darker as you go larger in screen size which you'd want to do because 36ftL is super bright.
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post #4 of 60 Old 07-26-2014, 09:52 AM
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Since you are talking about an on/off cr of around 50k to 75k to 1, the latest JVC with DI should be an improvement for you. The big question is what is most important to you. Is it on/off cr, ANSI cr, an equal measure of both, sharpness, etc?

Since we are close to Cedia, you might want to wait to see what is coming. Someone with JVC mentioned the potential for a new light engine.

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post #5 of 60 Old 07-26-2014, 11:48 AM
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I'm always a bit shocked when I read the measurements sections of many flat panel reviews. I see measured native contrast levels and they seem so low - such as those taken by the AVforum of the latest, greatest Sony LCD: 2,067:1

I'm so used to seeing reviews for projectors like the JVC where we are talking measured on/off anywhere from 40,000:1 up to over 100,000:1.

And yet flat panels can look incredibly contrasty and dynamic. Which I guess must speak to the merits of really high brightness and high ANSI contrast.
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post #6 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 06:09 AM
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The one area where a great flat panel (e.g., Kuro) can easily beat any projector is in ANSI contrast ratio, rather than on/off CR. Light dispersion within a projector's prisms and lenses hurts ANSI CR much more than what little light dispersion happens in the flat glass face plate with a plasma or LCD TV. There has long been an argument as to how high ANSI CR must be raised before human eyesight cannot detect any further change in picture quality. Some claim once you get to around 300:1 that is good enough while others claim improvements can be seen up to higher values. Of course the value of having a display with high ANSI CR varies depending on program material..
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post #7 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 07:05 AM
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The one area where a great flat panel (e.g., Kuro) can easily beat any projector is in ANSI contrast ratio, rather than on/off CR. Light dispersion within a projector's prisms and lenses hurts ANSI CR much more than what little light dispersion happens in the flat glass face plate with a plasma or LCD TV.
Yeah, that's what I mean: for technical reasons I can't imagine a projector (especially in most rooms) ever getting over the ANSI-limitations of the technology to compete with flat panel.

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There has long been an argument as to how high ANSI CR must be raised before human eyesight cannot detect any further change in picture quality. Some claim once you get to around 300:1 that is good enough while others claim improvements can be seen up to higher values. Of course the value of having a display with high ANSI CR varies depending on program material..
But don't flat panels make a strong case for higher ANSI being obvious? And isn't Dolby's new HDR technology based on the very fact that much higher simultaneous contrast than we currently get in flat panels is easily perceptible and makes for a more realistically dynamic image?
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post #8 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 07:07 AM
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I am sure the original poster is now thoroughly confuses and has become clueless as to what to do.

Forget about the technical gibberish. Try to get a demo of a JVC. Putting you real location down instead of being so cleaver with a fictional location might lead to identifying potential forum members who could do a quality demo for you. Then you can make up your own mind.

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post #9 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 07:42 AM
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I have an RS4810 (in blacked out room) and just sold my Panasonic VT60 plasma which was considered a reference display and considered by many to be overall equal to a Kuro.

No question the ansi was notably higher on the VT60 and this could been seen especially given it was so much smaller and brighter. However, the native/on-off contrast on my RS4810 is about double of the VT60. The blacks are superior on the RS4810 and the images do look more striking on it (putting the screen size differences aside) especially married with a Stewart ST100 screen.

I sold my VT60 because I didn't see the point in having it any longer as it was not getting much use since going front projection. The experience between having a good dedicated front projection room and set-up vs watching on a 65" flat panel are two completely different universes to put it very, very mildly.
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post #10 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 07:59 AM
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DavidHir,

Did you ever watch your Panny plasma with the lights out? Your post suggests you had done so, since that is when a higher black level becomes most apparent.

I find even my Samsung LCD TV in the basement can look like it has great black levels during normal lighted conditions. But to check that out I turned off all the lights and watched some dark movie scenes, whereupon the high black levels compared to my JVC were much more obvious.
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post #11 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 08:11 AM
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Hey Rich,

Yes, most of my viewing on the VT60 was with lights off. Low APL material, but seemingly even mid at times is where the largest differences are shown.

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post #12 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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AV Science Sales 5
Seegs108
Ericglo
R Harkness
Ron Jones
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DavidHir



all you guys

i am really proud of such forum and such participation which brighten my thoughts and making my consideration up to top and hopefully worth it..

since i bought the G9 kuro and seen the inside hidden G10 trail, i was looking to that "impossible" blackness were there are nothing to measure in figures and numbers 0.0000fL , but lets stay real since you gentlemen mention that i can reach or beet 0.0005fL under condition of what screen & room circumstances are , then heck yaaah im gonna do it ..

thanks again for the delightful discussion and info's,
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post #13 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
How good is your room? If you have really good light control then you can have really great blacks with the right projector. Great light control means, not only controlling the light coming into the room, but also controlling the light from the largest light source in the room and that is the screen. Most think they have full light control, when they can control the light coming into the room, but that is only half the battle. A good projector and the right room, will make you forget about that Kuro. This is coming from a guy that sees a 60" Kuro all the time. If you would like to talk projectors and pricing, give us a call.
nice i'll PM you since you have 2 brands i was looking for, and yes the room must be treated as you brought in the topic..


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It depends on screen size. For instance if you had a screen that's 92" diagonal, that has a surface area of 25 feet. The JVC projectors this year can put out about 900 lumens and has a measured contrast ratio of 350000:1 with the DI engaged. This means you'll get a peak white level of 36ftL and a black level of .000102ftL, or a darker black level than your Kuro by a large margin and it will only get darker as you go larger in screen size which you'd want to do because 36ftL is super bright.
man you just gave me hope when i think i lost it (0.000102ftL), i must been away from technology too long.

a quick question:

if the room size 14'x16'
seating distance to the screen between 9' to 11'
screen aspect 2:35:1 cinema-scoop


can i reach that black level figure (giving room treatment, JVC projector,,,etc)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Since you are talking about an on/off cr of around 50k to 75k to 1, the latest JVC with DI should be an improvement for you. The big question is what is most important to you. Is it on/off cr, ANSI cr, an equal measure of both, sharpness, etc?

Since we are close to Cedia, you might want to wait to see what is coming. Someone with JVC mentioned the potential for a new light engine.
brilliant idea to wait for Cedia,, thankx again
regarding your concerns i will start doing my search from now on you have done so much for me..
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post #14 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mks_95 View Post
man you just gave me hope when i think i lost it (0.000102ftL), i must been away from technology too long.

a quick question:

if the room size 14'x16'
seating distance to the screen between 9' to 11'
screen aspect 2:35:1 cinema-scoop


can i reach that black level figure (giving room treatment, JVC projector,,,etc)
I need to know the screen size to tell you, but unless the screen is tiny the black level will actually be better than the number I gave you. That black level is for a unity gain screen (under good room conditions) that's only 92" diagonal (1.78:1 screen) which is a fairly small screen size.

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post #15 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 11:40 AM
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mks_95,

I want to keep things realistic about what you might get from projection regarding black levels.

I think the typical "videophile" environment tends to lend flat panels a bit of an advantage in some ways. Most...I think...don't watch in complete darkness, but rather in lower light levels, with care that no light shines directly on the screen. Not watching in pitch darkness allows our eyes to be biased slightly so that the black levels of the flat panel aren't competing with a super black surrounding, so they look very dark. As I said earlier, even my Samsung LCD panel looks like it has dark blacks under carefully controlled lighting. It's only when I turn the lights completely off that
the black levels become obviously too light.

The thing with projection, then, is that since it's a "lights out" viewing environment, it means you are always watching under the most challenging conditions regarding black levels. Any black areas not perfectly black in the image will be more obvious in that case. Also, some of us have surrounded our projected images in black, and made our room decor particularly dark and non-reflective. These conditions make it very easy to detect any glow to black levels.

The JVC projectors, currently the contrast/black level kings in projection. I'm amazed at how dark my JVC projector can project, especially with the Dynamic Iris engaged. However, the conditions under which I watch it also make it clear we still have a ways to go before seeing pure black on screen in projection. Unless you have been watching your Kuro in pitch black, you may be used to a subjective impression of black levels that seem pure, pitch black, and if in reading about the JVC's measurements you think you will perceive the JVC's black floor as even darker, I'm saying that might not be the case.

There's also another phenomenon I've noticed in projection that makes it challenging for black levels: the larger I make the image, the more I notice higher black levels. I use a set up where I'm zooming the image to various sizes all the time, so I really notice this. Say I put on a movie with lots of dark areas in the image, like BladeRunner. I start by projecting it at (using a 16:9 screen) 102" diagonal. That gives the image a width of around 89 inches.

Then I zoom it out much larger to 125 inches wide. The zoomed out image is going to be dimmer, and hence the black levels will go objectively deeper. But it doesn't necessarily look that way. In fact I can start to notice the "less than black levels" on the larger image more. I believe several issues are at play: The smaller image looks more contrasty, more punchy, because it is brighter. The brighter parts of the image bias the eye a bit to make the darker parts look darker next to them. Further, the image being smaller places all that visual information, the bright and dark areas of the image, in a smaller space in your viewing angle, so in that sense the bright and dark areas are "closer together" which means the bright areas keep your eye biased to see the dark areas as darker - the contrast effect. Upon making the image larger, now those dark areas take up much more visual space, the bright area of the image is now more distant from the dark parts, and I can "see into" the larger dark areas better to detect
it's not pitch black...even though in measurement terms the larger projected image actually has deeper black levels.

There's also issues like the fact that the contrast is measurably better depending on what zoom setting you are at with your lens - generally more contrast zoomed smaller, less zoomed larger. Plus, projector light output isn't linear as you zoom out the image. But it's my hunch that the other variables I'm discussing above play more part in what I'm describing.

In a nutshell: there are tons of variables at play in how you will actually perceive the black levels of a projector, and the above is only a partial discussion.

All that said, whether you end up perceiving the projector black levels as deep as your Kuro or not, the black levels possible from the JVC are fantastic, and the contrast is superb. Once you have contrast this good, the size disparity between the projected image and the flat panel really rules the day. My 42" original Panasonic plasma used to seem huge to me when it replaced my 27" CRT years ago, now it feels like I need binoculars to watch something on it, compared to my projection set up. The experience of projection is just a different animal.

My family watched the Blu-Ray of the movie Speed last night at about 116" wide and the depth to the image was so life-like, the sense of seeing out past characters to backgrounds and horizons, the sense of palpable space, is something that you more easily experience from good projection. It's why people using projectors often describe it as being more like being "in the movie" than just watching TV.
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post #16 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 02:29 PM
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mks_95,

I think the most crucial point going with the JVC will be making sure your room is as dark as possible - preferably black with the least amount of reflection possible. I've read posts by some people who buy a JVC and have it in a room with white walls, lighter carpet, and/or ambient light and then complain about the lack of contrast. I've seen pictures of some cosmetically gorgeous looking dedicated theater rooms, but they are far from allowing ideal contrast/blacks from a projector.
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post #17 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 03:22 PM
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I think even in a room with white walls, the amount of native contrast the JVC's have is still visibly evident. As others have pointed out, to get the most out of a projector that has a high contrast ratio, the room is the limiting factor when trying achieve the most contrast and lowest black level possible. Considering your original post, it seems this is of utter importance to you and your purchase. Just make sure you have the appropriate space needed to achieve the high contrast you're looking for. As others have pointed out, a room with white walls, shiny things that reflect light, ambient light, light colored carpets, ect will all affect how much contrast you'll be able to achieve with the JVCs (or any projector for that matter). This may sound like anything that isn't like a black pit or bat cave will make the projector look awful in terms of contrast. That isn't the case, but seeing how you want the most contrast you'll need to put in a little extra effort with your room/decorating choices to achieve that vision.

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post #18 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 05:12 PM
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Not to be labor a point which has long been proven, the room reflectivity has absolutely nothing, that's NOTHING, to do with the measured on off contrast. If you tale two identical set ups and put one in a Klu Klux clan all white room and one in the proverbial black pit. the on off contrast ratio will be exactly the same. The absolute black reference value will be raised significantly in the reflective white room but the on off ACHIEVABLE contrast will be the same as in the black pit room. What goes to hell in the white room is the ANSI contrast ratio. Darin a member with a zillion posts wrote a paper years ago which was published discussing all this. The higher on off your projector has the higher the benefit regardless of the room. Its not incorrect nor is it debatable.
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post #19 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 05:56 PM
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Mark is right. Only added light from an outside source will change contrast. A screen will not add light nor take away. Size, gain and any other factor will change the direction of light.

ANSI deals with border and vicinity relationship between areas. In a perfect world, ANSI and on\off will be exactly the same. But in reality ANSI will be smaller.

This whole altering black level is pointless. You should concern yourself with your foot lumen measurement.

The only way to meaningfully change black level is at the projector by either an iris or lamp pulsing.
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post #20 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 06:14 PM
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That's not what I am saying. Let's suppose a room is partially reflective. We have to assume the degree of reflectivity is linear. To make it simple, lets say the reflectivity is 10%. The on screen off (the black ref value will be increased by 10% and the peak white value will be increased by 10%. Since to get on off one divides the peak by the black ref value, the 10% when divided will cancel (be one) and the on off ratio remains the same.

And of course Mark is right. No affirmation of this concept is needed. It is not arguable.

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post #21 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 06:37 PM
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I thought that's what I said. In your example if you increase the reflection by 10%, then both black level and peak white go up by 10% too. All you did was change the direction of light. In a closed system you can't destroy or create, only change. Simple physics.

Which isn't what most have. A light turned on in the room or the sun\street lights from outside will lower on off. If that weren't the case Mississippiman would have several thousand less posts.
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post #22 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 08:04 PM
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That is true. Adding extraneous light is not a uniform multiplier of the top and bottom as room reflectivity of the light bouncing off the screen is. A little non reflective light hitting the screen will raise the ref black level disproportionately to the white peak and will destroy ANSI contrast as well as on off. But the subject of black pitting ones room to improve contrast is inane. Most people here on the black pit forum thread think a room needs to be black pitted to get the benefit of high on offs from their projector. When they say black pitting increases the contrast they are essentially clueless although ANSI contrast will go up somewhat and that is very import given how low it is when measured under the best it can be by measuring pointing into the lens to eliminate degradation caused by room reflections. What one gets by black pitting is a significant lowering of the measured black ref value when measured off the screen and better ANSI contrast and contrast for which no tests or measurement techniques exist for when light and dark are on the screen. JVCs have low ANSI contrast values and they need all the help a black pit can give so you can maximize what little they have. Once again, the black pitting has nothing to do with maximizing the benefits of high native on off. Another benefit is to be able to use a screen with a very wide half angle. These are almost by definition unity gain screens which eliminate most screen abnormalities and permit a texturless screen if manufactured correctly using the correct screen fabric materials

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post #23 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 08:08 PM
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The OP wanted to know if he could get a black reference level similar to kis plasma if he were to use a projector and screen. the answer is yes or even lower PROVIDE the system is put into a black pit room where there is no ambient light and room reflectivity of lighting hitying the ewalls, ceiling and floor from the screen is lowered to extremely low levels.

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post #24 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 08:33 PM
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I don't see them as being anything close to a Kuro. It's the perfect flat panel, except I saw yellow flashes from blue being a different timing phosphor decay. If blacks are an issue there will be a difference for the most anal. Nothing comes close to a CRT which can easily reach over 300,000:1 to 700,000:1. But the color and contrast for all scenes other than fade to black will be better on the JVC.

Another issue is motion. A plasma and especially CRT will utterly destroy the JVC. For me the sample and hold from lcos bugs me. I think it's the motion of the grain. With animation, the JVC is phenomenal. 300 looks great on a CRT, but overly grainy on lcos.
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post #25 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
But the subject of black pitting ones room to improve contrast is inane. Most people here on the black pit forum thread think a room needs to be black pitted to get the benefit of high on offs from their projector. When they say black pitting increases the contrast they are essentially clueless although ANSI contrast will go up somewhat. What one gets by black pitting is a significant lowering of the measured black ref value when measured off the screen. Really nothing more.
Mark, I'm finding your posts on this issue to be a bit odd. I don't think people in the black pit thread are nearly as ignorant as you are characterizing here.

It's true that on/off contrast numbers will remain constant whether you are using a projector in a full white room or a black pit due to the math you are talking about (and which Darin has described many times here). But this fact seems often to be brought up to humble people who worry about putting a projector with high contrast into a reflective room. Which is very misleading.

It seems to me that the fact on/off will be the same in a bright or non-reflective room is largely (though not totally) academic to the concerns of the real world issues of doing so, which really DO concern the contrast you will see on screen. Yeah if you watch only a full white screen and a full black screen, you'll see exactly the same range of contrast in a bright or dark colored room. But once you have images of mixed brightness - that is virtually every actual image you'll ever actually watch! - then you have potential contrast-lowering problems in a reflective room.

When people worry about buying a projector like the JVC and compromising the contrast they are mostly thinking not about On/off, but of it's native On/Off contrast. (Because as you know there's quite a difference - a projector with an aggressive DI can have way wider On/Off vs it's native contrast**). It's the native contrast ratio of the JVCs, the ability to *simultaneously display very deep black levels and bright parts in the same image* that are the selling point. That's the contrast people are concerned about. And that IS the type of contrast that is compromised in a reflective room, because once you have those bright portions with the dark portions, the bright portions will be reflected back into the dark areas, destroying that native contrast you paid for.

I've certainly seen this first hand. My original JVC RS20 projected in my small fairly reflective bedroom often looked laughably washed out in many scenes (except the most rare very low APL scenes). Though that was a worst case scenario, it was very telling. In my home theater, I had my projector up before the decor was done and I watched as the contrast got better and better as more room treatment was put in.

So when you put it this way: "Most people here on the black pit forum thread think a room needs to be black pitted to get the benefit of high on offs from their projector" that seems to actually miss the point. Most people aren't thinking a dark non-reflective room help maintain the JVC's on/off, they think it helps you maintain the benefits of JVC's huge NATIVE CONTRAST and they are right!

It is the case that even in an imperfect room, with some lighter decor, you can still see a difference in contrast with the JVC vs a lower contrast projector. But it's also true that the real potential of the JVC's native contrast will be compromised the more you allow for reflective surfaces in the room.

What's weird is I know that you know this. But then you wrote: "What one gets by black pitting is a significant lowering of the measured black ref value when measured off the screen. Really nothing more. "

So I'm just not sure what you really mean to say on the subject. Surely a black pit room, cutting room reflectivity,
does far more than just lower the ref black value - it's real world effects are drastic, maintaining higher contrast over many scenes that would be much lower in a reflective room, and keeping a much more consistent black level/contrast overall.

**(And further, as we know native On/Off contrast is not the same as ANSI contrast. As Darin has often explained, ANSI contrast measurements are quite particular patterns and don't tell you a lot about what you'll get on screen in terms of the actual overall image contrast in a single scene afforded by the projectors native on/off contrast, because of the different distribution of light and dark vs the ANSI patterns. Hence it's not just "ANSI" contrast that is compromised by a reflective room, but at least as important, you can get effectively less native contrast - simultaneous contrast as it were - on screen than your projector is capable of).

Last edited by R Harkness; 07-27-2014 at 09:17 PM.
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post #26 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
I don't see them as being anything close to a Kuro. It's the perfect flat panel, except I saw yellow flashes from blue being a different timing phosphor decay. If blacks are an issue there will be a difference for the most anal. Nothing comes close to a CRT which can easily reach over 300,000:1 to 700,000:1. But the color and contrast for all scenes other than fade to black will be better on the JVC.

Another issue is motion. A plasma and especially CRT will utterly destroy the JVC. For me the sample and hold from lcos bugs me. I think it's the motion of the grain. With animation, the JVC is phenomenal. 300 looks great on a CRT, but overly grainy on lcos.
I wouldn't go as far to say that they were "perfect", but they were, and still are, excellent. OLED, if it ever comes, will be a better display technology then plasma in many regards. No size restrictions, far more power efficient, virtually infinite contrast, far more versatile in terms of applications, ect. But this is getting a little off topic. I think we've all made our respective points.

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post #27 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 09:14 PM
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Rich,

Only ANSI benefits from a black pit. You also gain a sense of immersion too.

On off isn't affected one bit. What you're confusing is the affect ANSI has on on off. A person with a DLP will actually gain the most.

A KKK white sheet pit will have all the on off. What's different is how ANSI and on off play together.
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post #28 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I wouldn't go as far to say that they were "perfect", but they were, and still are, excellent. OLED, if it ever comes, will be a better display technology then plasma in many regards. No size restrictions, far more power efficient, virtually infinite contrast, far more versatile in terms of applications, ect. But this is getting a little off topic. I think we've all made our respective points.
It's too bad FED never took off. CRT could've merged with digital to get really small tubes with an equally smaller spot size. I bet a CRT like tech the size of the 4K VPL-VW1100 at a fraction of the price could've been possible if Sony had let the technology improve.
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post #29 of 60 Old 07-27-2014, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Rich,

Only ANSI benefits from a black pit. You also gain a sense of immersion too.

On off isn't affected one bit. What you're confusing is the affect ANSI has on on off. A person with a DLP will actually gain the most.

A KKK white sheet pit will have all the on off. What's different is how ANSI and on off play together.
Debonaire,

That misses the point I tried so carefully to make.

1. Yes, On/Off in terms of FULL WHITE and FULL BLACK screens contrast ratio is maintained in both a reflective and a non-reflective room. But as I wrote, that is not what people making black pits are concerned about.
They are concerned about maintaining the actual contrast you will see in most images, and the native contrast of the projector will take a hit on screen. They are not generally under a misapprehension in worrying about this.

2. What I meant about ANSI contrast vs native on/off is that in terms of measuring, what you measure in an ANSI contrast pattern doesn't tell you the actual simultaneous contrast you will see in many movie images, where the on screen simultaneous contrast will actually be much higher as predicted by the native on/off contrast (because, for instance, bright areas will often be further from dark areas than in an ANSI pattern, so for instance a bright moon against a dark night sky will have much higher contrast than one would infer from ANSI measurements - and in general a projector's "ANSI contrast" is typically taken to be how it scores on ANSI test patterns). The problem is many people when thinking of a projector's ANSI contrast will think of how it performs on ANSI contrast pattern measurements: "oh the JVCs only do around 250 to 300:1 ANSI contrast." But the actual simultaneous contrast in most movie scenes will be much higher on the JVC as a function of the high native on/off contrast. And hence, my point, is the far higher native on/off contrast measurements ALSO tell you about the potential simultaneous contrast you will compromise in a reflective room. It's not only about ANSI measurements. You'll be losing a good bit of what you are buying in terms of the capabilities described by the native on/off measurements as well. (E.g. ANSI measurements won't tell you just how amazing bright stage lights will appear against black backgrounds on the JVCs, as the ANSI measurements are fairly low, but you WILL if you understand the impact of native on/off measurements,
know why it will be so much more dynamic than you can infer from the ANSI contrast numbers. And it's those dynamics, the ones promised by the native on/off numbers, that you'll compromise in a reflective room).

(The simultaneous contrast should be one and the same as the ansi contrast, but I'm reminding people that ANSI measurements don't tell the full story of the simultaneous contrast you will see on screen, which will be affected by room reflections, that you will be losing the potential you are buying that is also described by the on/off contrast measurements).

Last edited by R Harkness; 07-27-2014 at 10:16 PM.
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post #30 of 60 Old 07-28-2014, 06:28 AM
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Rich. You are making sense in some ways but your are completely wrong by saying a black pit increases the benefits of native on off. Native on off is unassisted on off. Its a number and the higher the better. The room doesn't change it. Adding a DI doesn't change it. And its primary benefit is the ability to run a higher gamma without black crush. I have edited my post. It was misleading as written. Clearly, best video performance will be obtained in a non reflective room. But this is not because the JVC has a high unassisted or native on/off contrast level.

ANSI contrast and other types of contrast (for which there are no established measurement tests) (where there are both light and dark areas on the screen) are very dependent on room reflectivity. ANSI is an extreme unreal case but its the only measurement test for this type or scene we have. This type of scene means where the are brighter and darker areas at the same time time and light coming off the light area of the screen hits the walls etc in areas much bigger than what was on the screen because of greater travel distances (its diffuse after it hits the screen) and comes back all over the screen washing out the darker areas. ANSI numbers compared to on/off are extremely low and even the best room conditions won't raise them a huge amount but the increase can be significant given how low ANSI is to begin with. ANSI should be measured by a meter pointing into the lens and reading each and every rectangle on the pattern and then adding and dividing etc.

But guess what? The JVCs do not excel at ANSI. No LCOS technology projector will have a high ANSI. Buying the best on/off JVC (and using or not using its II) doesn't give you great ANSI and we have no measurement of measuring a less severe case than ANSI because we have no pattern or measurement technique standardized. We talk about intrascene contrast etc but ANSI is the best measurement or guess we have for that. JVCs and their high on offs native or assisted have rather poor ANSI contrast levels. To get the benefit of whatever low ANSI level is there one must treat the room to make it non reflective. And by keeping the light screen area light from bouncing back and wrecking the low light area (blacks and levels at the ow end) one needs a black pit.

High on off generally means a very low black ref level and low levels at areas just above. Reflections are what kill these and the biggest killer is light screen area reflections.


but once again this has absolutely nothing to do with high on off, native, it has to do with low measured values at the low end of the light intensity spectrum and maximizing ANSI and lets call them its derivative less severe contrast levels..

Mark Haflich
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call me at: 240 876 2536

Last edited by mark haflich; 07-28-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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