JVC Projector - Strange Flicker w/ Certain Blu-Rays - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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JVC Projector - Strange Flicker w/ Certain Blu-Rays

I have a strange problem that appears to be related to certain source material / Blu-rays and how they are processed by my JVC X70 (RS55). What I am seeing amounts to a fluctuation in brightness or flickering (that is more noticeable in darker scenes) with certain blu-rays. I have noticed this in scenes of the last GI Joe movie, Need for Speed in certain night scenes and almost continuously throughout Noah. It is most noticeable in the 15th or 16th chapter of Noah (Ham agrees to help the King with a plan to kill Noah), where it almost seems to be a subtle, but noticeable continuous strobing effect. One other variable I have to throw in is that this has been noticeable only on rented blu-rays through Redbox, but I don't think this has any real relationship and is just coincidental. I have not seen it on any of my personal collection (300 blu-rays), but I have been able to duplicate it on the same move rented from two different locations and it is completely repeatable. I can also see it happening when doing a frame-by-frame advance. It is happening to greater degrees in certain frames. There also seems to be a cadence to it which led me to believe that somehow the projector is not properly recognizing the frames/second content.

Finallly, The flickering is present when the Blu-ray is being rendered by any of my three blu-ray players (Panasonic BDT220, PS4, Xbox One)and I have also swapped HDMI cables (30 foot) with no relief. I have also tried changing all related setting in both my blu-ray player and my projector.

Any thoughts would be very helpful.

John

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post #2 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 12:57 PM
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You're positive it isn't flickering from lamp arcs? Try switching to high lamp mode for about 25 hours and see if that relieves your problem.
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post #3 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 12:57 PM
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Might have a bad power board. As they heat up, the projector will start to flicker, with a dark scene getting lighter then darker. It is a known problem with JVC projectors (the RS models). Does it seem to do it later in the playing of a disk after the projector is on for awhile? If so, it's a good chance the power board.

If under warranty, insist on a fix or new unit.

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post #4 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 01:03 PM
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i have mild lamp flicker with my jvc, only noticeable during certain scenes, but generally there whenever i focus on it.


it was real bad at one point and i switched to high lamp for about 30mins and that seemed to do the trick for me. when it eventually came back it wasn't nearly as bad, and i just haven't felt the need to bother with it again.


nobody else has said anything either

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post #5 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I sincerely believe this is absolutely source based. It is definitely in the way that the projector is translating the data it is being fed to it by the Blu ray player. As I said the projector does not present this issue with my personal Blu rays. It only presents this with certain source material. As this is the case, I do not believe it has anything to do with the hardware of the projector itself.
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post #6 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 03:39 PM
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can I assume then that you've replayed troublesome material and seen the same flicker? and that the flicker stops when the scene is paused?


it's just weird that changing the bd player hasn't made a difference. I don't even remember if the jvc's have it, but make sure you have any kind of dynamic contrast/gamma feature disabled as well.


maybe more info on the model you have and its current settings. I just don't think the projector should be doing that much processing that it would induce a content based flicker.

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post #7 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
can I assume then that you've replayed troublesome material and seen the same flicker? and that the flicker stops when the scene is paused?


it's just weird that changing the bd player hasn't made a difference. I don't even remember if the jvc's have it, but make sure you have any kind of dynamic contrast/gamma feature disabled as well.


maybe more info on the model you have and its current settings. I just don't think the projector should be doing that much processing that it would induce a content based flicker.
I obviously have not articulated this issue well and for that I have to apologize. The cause of the flicker is actually in the source material itself. The flicker is resulting from varying black level in the frames (of the motion picture). I can actually see how the black level in the frames is rising when I do a frame-by-frame advance on my blu-ray player. That being said, it can't be in all copies of the movie because no one else is complaining about this issue (with Noah). It almost has to be a result of how my projector is processing the data.
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post #8 of 22 Old 08-12-2014, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by nohjy View Post
I obviously have not articulated this issue well and for that I have to apologize. The cause of the flicker is actually in the source material itself. The flicker is resulting from varying black level in the frames (of the motion picture). I can actually see how the black level in the frames is rising when I do a frame-by-frame advance on my blu-ray player. That being said, it can't be in all copies of the movie because no one else is complaining about this issue (with Noah). It almost has to be a result of how my projector is processing the data.
sorry, I figured you've check to make sure, but you can't really assume anything these days. I appear to have glazed over the frame by frame part in your original post, my bad.


I'm still wondering if there's any possibility of a 'dynamic' setting some where that got left on? when I replaced my video card on my htpc I thought I was seeing the dreaded 'floating blacks' on my f8500 finally, but located a dynamic contrast setting in the GPU settings that was the cause. it seems unlikely, but it also seems weird that it'd be the jvc's fault too. so worth asking I think.


you said you've checked different discs and different players, but have you checked on another source? to me that would be the next step to try and determine if this is source related or display related.

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post #9 of 22 Old 08-13-2014, 05:53 AM
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Sounds like someone made copies of a movie that was copyright protected.. maybe they used some software to try and defeat the protection but not all of it. Any material I have tried to make a copy of in the past (DVD) that was protected produced a copy that the brightness would pump.. just as you describe only much more intensely.

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post #10 of 22 Old 08-13-2014, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like someone made copies of a movie that was copyright protected.. maybe they used some software to try and defeat the protection but not all of it. Any material I have tried to make a copy of in the past (DVD) that was protected produced a copy that the brightness would pump.. just as you describe only much more intensely.
That is interesting because that is what I am seeing - brightness pumping. I wonder if the owners of Redbox machines may be buying illegal copies of the movies. That would make so much sense. I honestly have not seen this with any other source material (not rented from Redbox).
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post #11 of 22 Old 08-13-2014, 12:44 PM
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maybe it's not technically an illegal copy, but just a low quality one? I mean, we already know a lot of those copies have compressed audio, maybe they are starting to do that with video also?


it really feels like studios are doing everything they can to kill physical media rentals, maybe this is another step down that road...

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post #12 of 22 Old 09-11-2014, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I have finally noticed this on one of my blu-rays as it happens at roughly 1 hour and 28 minutes into the first Captain America movie - during the interview between Tommy Lee Jones and the lead scientist for Hydra. It happens on many occasions throughout the interview. Could someone else check that has access to CA and see if this occurs on their JVC projector? Strangely, it does not happen that frequently in this movie, but it is noticeable in that scene. When I freeze the screen you can see it appears to be a form of compression noise that is raising the black level of a certain area of the screen. I also tried the 3D version of this movie and did not notice the same issue. Is it just bad media / a bad blu-ray?

Many thanks for your help!

John
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post #13 of 22 Old 09-11-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by nohjy View Post
Well, I have finally noticed this on one of my blu-rays as it happens at roughly 1 hour and 28 minutes into the first Captain America movie - during the interview between Tommy Lee Jones and the lead scientist for Hydra. It happens on many occasions throughout the interview. Could someone else check that has access to CA and see if this occurs on their JVC projector? Strangely, it does not happen that frequently in this movie, but it is noticeable in that scene. When I freeze the screen you can see it appears to be a form of compression noise that is raising the black level of a certain area of the screen. I also tried the 3D version of this movie and did not notice the same issue. Is it just bad media / a bad blu-ray?

Many thanks for your help!

John
Yes, this is present in my Captain America: The First Avenger BD. I actually have noticed this subtle flickering in many BDs over the last few years.

This was noticed on my old RS4810 and my current RS57. I do NOT use the auto iris on the RS57 because of a different type of flicker it causes. So this is not related to the auto iris or the dynamic gamma.

I do not rent BDs, so all discs I've noticed this on are 100% "genuine" studio issued new consumer discs from Amazon or Best Buy.

I recently borrowed my friends's copy of The First Avenger, and that had the same "flickering/strobing" in some dark scenes as my disc. You can also see this in the opening scene when Schmidt is retrieving the Tesseract and the scene after Bucky falls from the train when Steve and Peggy are talking in the bombed out bar.

I believe way back when I first noticed this issue, I tried it on a completely different monitor and with a different player and noticed the issue was still present.

Honestly I didn't have the energy to try to explain the issue and look for answers on the forums because if not many people seem to notice the issue it can be exhausting trying to describe it. So I didn't push it. But I'd love for this to be figured out.

I'll confirm that I see this on multiple monitors with multiple players with different discs over the next few days and post back here.
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post #14 of 22 Old 09-11-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, this is present in my Captain America: The First Avenger BD. I actually have noticed this subtle flickering in many BDs over the last few years.

This was noticed on my old RS4810 and my current RS57. I do NOT use the auto iris on the RS57 because of a different type of flicker it causes. So this is not related to the auto iris or the dynamic gamma.

I do not rent BDs, so all discs I've noticed this on are 100% "genuine" studio issued new consumer discs from Amazon or Best Buy.

I recently borrowed my friends's copy of The First Avenger, and that had the same "flickering/strobing" in some dark scenes as my disc. You can also see this in the opening scene when Schmidt is retrieving the Tesseract and the scene after Bucky falls from the train when Steve and Peggy are talking in the bombed out bar.

I believe way back when I first noticed this issue, I tried it on a completely different monitor and with a different player and noticed the issue was still present.

Honestly I didn't have the energy to try to explain the issue and look for answers on the forums because if not many people seem to notice the issue it can be exhausting trying to describe it. So I didn't push it. But I'd love for this to be figured out.

I'll confirm that I see this on multiple monitors with multiple players with different discs over the next few days and post back here.
Let me thank you from the bottom of my heart. I was going crazy trying to figure this out. I can't understand why others haven't noticed this and brought it up for discussion. It is annoying as hell when you are watching on a large screen. I have seen it on at least a half-dozen title,but it was the worst on Noah. That movie is almost unwatchable in the darker scenes.

I read in a forum, where they appeared to be discussing the same issue, that this is probably resulting from the camera being used the shoot the scene. The person who stated this seemed very knowledgeable on the subject.

So, you have checked to see if the flickering is occurring on other displays and it is noticeable?

Thanks again for your response.

John
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post #15 of 22 Old 09-11-2014, 03:40 PM
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So, you have checked to see if the flickering is occurring on other displays and it is noticeable?
I'm 99% certain I checked other displays and saw the same thing, but I will confirm later tonight.
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post #16 of 22 Old 09-11-2014, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Sean,

If you do you see it on other monitors, at that point we have to just conclude its the media. Whether, it's from the camera that is used, a compression artifact or a bad transfer would be the next question. I guess I should be thankful that it does not appear in any of my favorite movies... I am still suprised this is not a frequent topic of discussion. Anyway, I look forward to you findings.

Best,

John
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post #17 of 22 Old 09-11-2014, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by nohjy View Post
Sean,

If you do you see it on other monitors, at that point we have to just conclude its the media. Whether, it's from the camera that is used, a compression artifact or a bad transfer would be the next question. I guess I should be thankful that it does not appear in any of my favorite movies... I am still suprised this is not a frequent topic of discussion. Anyway, I look forward to you findings.

Best,

John
Ok. In my main theater I have my PS3 running to a Denon AVR-2313 with dual HDMI outs. One goes directly to the RS57 and the other to TV (a very long in the tooth Sony KDS-60A3000).

I was looking at Captain America: The First Avenger, and I can confirm that this dark pulsing is present on both the JVC projector and the Sony TV.

I also put the disc in a different BD player (Samsung) connected to a third monitor (a Samsung LCD). At first, I thought I didn't see the dark pulsing. Then I raised the brightness up one notch and I could see it was there as well. It was just more subtle and harder to see (possibly related to the lower contrast ratio of the LCD or the crushed shadow detail?). I could definitely see how most would not know it's there if they weren't looking for it. But it was there.

So the issue definitely seems to be something in the source.

I'm pretty certain it's not just a bad disc, as I did borrow another copy a few months back and saw the same thing. Plus this is something I've noticed to various degrees on many BDs. I'd love to find out if different playback devices show any differences in this effect on my RS57. I'll try to check that out.

What playback device are you using?
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post #18 of 22 Old 09-12-2014, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Ok. In my main theater I have my PS3 running to a Denon AVR-2313 with dual HDMI outs. One goes directly to the RS57 and the other to TV (a very long in the tooth Sony KDS-60A3000).

I was looking at Captain America: The First Avenger, and I can confirm that this dark pulsing is present on both the JVC projector and the Sony TV.

I also put the disc in a different BD player (Samsung) connected to a third monitor (a Samsung LCD). At first, I thought I didn't see the dark pulsing. Then I raised the brightness up one notch and I could see it was there as well. It was just more subtle and harder to see (possibly related to the lower contrast ratio of the LCD or the crushed shadow detail?). I could definitely see how most would not know it's there if they weren't looking for it. But it was there.

So the issue definitely seems to be something in the source.

I'm pretty certain it's not just a bad disc, as I did borrow another copy a few months back and saw the same thing. Plus this is something I've noticed to various degrees on many BDs. I'd love to find out if different playback devices show any differences in this effect on my RS57. I'll try to check that out.

What playback device are you using?
I have seen it with a Panasonic bdt220 bluray player, a PS4 and an Xbox One.

I have also noticed that it becomes more noticeable when using certain image enhancement settings on my jvc, especially when increasing sharpness.
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I have also noticed that it becomes more noticeable when using certain image enhancement settings on my jvc, especially when increasing sharpness.
Interesting. I only had a short time to take another look this afternoon, so I didn't fire up the projector and just looked on the Sony TV.

First I found that noise reduction seemed to eliminate or hide this dark pulsing. Then I looked at my detail enhancement settings. The Sony has a "detail enhancement" of high, medium, low, and off. I had it on medium. I found that turning the detail enhancement off or turning it down to low seems to eliminate the issue.

So yes, definitely related to sharpness/detail enhancement settings. I'll have to look at the projector later tonight to see what happens with various levels of "enhancement".

I still don't think this should be there in the first place to be exacerbated by enhancement, but it seems like its yet another example of these various image enhancements (Darbee, reality creation, MPC enhancement, etc...) that at first seem like nice improvements but upon closer critical watching either revel flaws you'd rather not see or create their own flaws (depending on the level being used).

I'd still like to better understand what this dark pulsing is that is being revealed/exacerbated by enhancing the image detail. Could this be related to some aspect of digital copy protection that should be "invisible" but is being revealed by enhancing the detail?
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post #20 of 22 Old 09-13-2014, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. I only had a short time to take another look this afternoon, so I didn't fire up the projector and just looked on the Sony TV.

First I found that noise reduction seemed to eliminate or hide this dark pulsing. Then I looked at my detail enhancement settings. The Sony has a "detail enhancement" of high, medium, low, and off. I had it on medium. I found that turning the detail enhancement off or turning it down to low seems to eliminate the issue.

So yes, definitely related to sharpness/detail enhancement settings. I'll have to look at the projector later tonight to see what happens with various levels of "enhancement".

I still don't think this should be there in the first place to be exacerbated by enhancement, but it seems like its yet another example of these various image enhancements (Darbee, reality creation, MPC enhancement, etc...) that at first seem like nice improvements but upon closer critical watching either revel flaws you'd rather not see or create their own flaws (depending on the level being used).

I'd still like to better understand what this dark pulsing is that is being revealed/exacerbated by enhancing the image detail. Could this be related to some aspect of digital copy protection that should be "invisible" but is being revealed by enhancing the detail?
Sean,

Again, I'll be interested in your findings. I tried turning sharpness all the way down and, while it does reduce the flicker significantly, it does not get rid of it entirely. Unfortunately, I do not like the sharpness setting below 10 on my projector as I find the picture softens too much. Reduction of CMD also seem to have some impact.

Let me know what you find...

best,

John
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post #21 of 22 Old 09-13-2014, 11:03 AM
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Sean,

Again, I'll be interested in your findings. I tried turning sharpness all the way down and, while it does reduce the flicker significantly, it does not get rid of it entirely. Unfortunately, I do not like the sharpness setting below 10 on my projector as I find the picture softens too much. Reduction of CMD also seem to have some impact.

Let me know what you find...

best,

John
John,

The RS57 has no sharpness setting, but the MPC settings have "enhancement" (which sharpens the image), "dynamic contrast", "smoothing", and "NR".

I can confirm that this pulsing is significantly exacerbated by higher "enhancement" values. And I can "almost" eliminate it by turning the enhancement all the way down.

Turning the "NR" all the way up also seems to help hide it.

Also, I believe the state of the lower end of the gamma settings will make this easier or harder to see.

Again, I'd really like to know what this is. I can best describe it as a "brighter pulsing" seen in certain low APL scenes. The pulsing has a regular interval of roughly one second.

When people rip BDs to their media servers, does this strip away all copy protection junk? I'd be curious to know if this is also present on such files.
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post #22 of 22 Old 09-13-2014, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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John,

The RS57 has no sharpness setting, but the MPC settings have "enhancement" (which sharpens the image), "dynamic contrast", "smoothing", and "NR".

I can confirm that this pulsing is significantly exacerbated by higher "enhancement" values. And I can "almost" eliminate it by turning the enhancement all the way down.

Turning the "NR" all the way up also seems to help hide it.

Also, I believe the state of the lower end of the gamma settings will make this easier or harder to see.

Again, I'd really like to know what this is. I can best describe it as a "brighter pulsing" seen in certain low APL scenes. The pulsing has a regular interval of roughly one second.

When people rip BDs to their media servers, does this strip away all copy protection junk? I'd be curious to know if this is also present on such files.

What is interesting is I did not see it in the 3D version of CA, so 3d must handle this issue differently. If it is related to copy protection, my question is why do I only see it in certain lower APL scenes in one movie, but not another?
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