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post #91 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 02:44 PM
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This issue is that some thing has to be drastically new and then be able to be improved gradually over say the next four years without a platform change. That or JVC dies.

A true 4K chip machine that is reworked in a year or so to handle the coming 4K blu ray standard etc etc. then adding e shift to bring it to fake 8K. The possibilities are endless.

A laser hybrid machine. These off the shelf modules would require the platform to be substantially revised for the blue laser pathway. These modules are very bright easily putting out 4000 lumens. that many lumens and your contrast goes to 20,000. so the trick is to reduce its output to say 1800 lumens and use existing II technology to give consumer something they will accept.

The third option is an LED machine of normal lumens. LED light because of a variety of factors appears brighten than the standard lumens. And it is brighter if measured correctly.

One of these things is going to happen with JVC. My bet is the third option.

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post #92 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 02:51 PM
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In a three chip projector where would the LEDs go? Is a single LED placed next to each chip or are they all still placed at the beginning of the light path without a color filter?

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post #93 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 05:02 PM
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I have no clue.
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post #94 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 05:12 PM
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I only ask because I've only seen LEDs implemented in a single chip DLP proejctor and the LEDs had a color filter over each one to create green, blue, and red for sequential color. I'm assuming since we have three microdisplays the color filters will still be over the chips and they would use the pure white light the LEDs produce.

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post #95 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 06:00 PM
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I thought the LED lit machines used three leds that flashed sequentially thus eliminating the color wheel but still using 1 DLP chip. Don't the Sims work this way?

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post #96 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I thought the LED lit machines used three leds that flashed sequentially thus eliminating the color wheel but still using 1 DLP chip. Don't the Sims work this way?
Correct, there are three LEDs and each one has a color filter over them (one green, one red, one blue) and the colors are flash sequentially which eliminates the color wheel.

My point about using them without the color filter is probably necessary because there's already color generated from the LCoS chips. It would be redundant.

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post #97 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 08:13 PM
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Are yu saying the three LEDs are the same except for the filters?

and I don't understand the LCOS chips generating the colors. The colors are spli from the bulb via filters and the chips are the same, they modulate a color beam, they are not colored themselves.

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post #98 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Are yu saying the three LEDs are the same except for the filters?

and I don't understand the LCOS chips generating the colors. The colors are spli from the bulb via filters and the chips are the same, they modulate a color beam, they are not colored themselves.
Yes, the LEDs are the same except for the filter:







As far as the LCoS chips I meant they don't need a single light source for each color. Aka, yes they also (the chips) use filters for color which is why I said a filter at the LEDs would be redundant.

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post #99 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 08:55 PM
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I don't think JVC will go the LED only route but rather LEDs plus the laser. To get respectable light from their LEDs Sim2 drives them hard and uses liquid cooling so you end up with a large and heavy projector (M.150). If JVC already has laser hybrids for their simulation projectors then why wouldn't they use technology they know and revise what they need to for the home theatre market. If JVC gets 20,000:1 native and then adds their DI they're still going to have the best on/off C.R. in the home theatre arena unless Epson comes up with something truly exceptional.
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post #100 of 340 Old 08-20-2014, 09:02 PM
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Isn't rumored Epson has some sort of lcos projector coming?

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post #101 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Yes, the LEDs are the same except for the filter:
They use Red, Green, and Blue LEDs. No filters involved. See here, there are LEDs for each color.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #102 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 06:40 AM
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That is what I thought. perhaps there are two different ways of doing LED illumination in a projector.

Will many people flip their JVC projector to get a JVC model with a blue laser/spinning yellow phosphor wheel? If it is nosier (yea it would be) and it doesn't have the high on/off that most JVC owners think is more important than great sex?

The primary reason for getting such a projector for most would be the need for more light. Assuming normal bulb life, most JVC owners here on this forum tend to flip long before they need to replace more than one or two bulbs. But think you could get a reference quality screen with out giving up size with all that extra light.

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post #103 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Isn't rumored Epson has some sort of lcos projector coming?
LCoS, laser or laser hybrid and/or 4K -- if Epson introduced a projector for under $10K with all these changes it would shake things up a bit. I expect all the manufactures to have 4K laser or laser hybrid projectors in a couple of years. JVC has high contrast and fake 4K so what's the next move? JVC will probably make its big move next year but who knows -- if Epson and/or Sony introduce something special this year JVC needs to respond.

Sony seems to lead the pack when it comes to major innovation -- 1080p, DIs, 4K and so on. It already has a laser business machine that produces 4,000 lumens so I think a home theatre move in that direction is a distinct possibility either this year or next.

Here's the link to a review of the Sony laser projector:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony...jector-review/

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post #104 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 07:03 AM
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We will know three weeks from today regarding JVC changes. We may know sooner about Epson and Sony since they show in Berlin. I am surprised that JVC can keep things so secret.
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post #105 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 08:11 AM
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In a that seems to me to have been the case for many years now. Ever since the break through RS1, or perhaps the RS2, we've really just seen incremental increases in contrast (and then, to the degree not everyone would even see the improvements in their set ups). And it can be argued that practically every "improvement" has been subtle, not a "wow," E-shift included.

Though the "wow" is always subjective, isn't it? I suppose I was wow'd somewhat by move from my RS20 to my previous RS55 with E-shift, because it did seem to be a different looking image. In a way the ILA models, like my RS57, may be my biggest "wow" due to some of the moments created by the ILA - just seeing black levels at certain times that amaze me (though we still have a long way to go with most mixed brightness scenes).
I had a few customers that moved from RS1's and RS2's to the RS4910 and they could all see a huge increase in performance.

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post #106 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
This issue is that some thing has to be drastically new and then be able to be improved gradually over say the next four years without a platform change. That or JVC dies.

A true 4K chip machine that is reworked in a year or so to handle the coming 4K blu ray standard etc etc. then adding e shift to bring it to fake 8K. The possibilities are endless.

A laser hybrid machine. These off the shelf modules would require the platform to be substantially revised for the blue laser pathway. These modules are very bright easily putting out 4000 lumens. that many lumens and your contrast goes to 20,000. so the trick is to reduce its output to say 1800 lumens and use existing II technology to give consumer something they will accept.

The third option is an LED machine of normal lumens. LED light because of a variety of factors appears brighten than the standard lumens. And it is brighter if measured correctly.

One of these things is going to happen with JVC. My bet is the third option.
From my understanding, JVC does very well on the commercial side, selling a lot of higher end install projectors. I think that is a larger market for them than the HT market.

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post #107 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Isn't rumored Epson has some sort of lcos projector coming?
They showed them at CEDIA two years ago, but could not get yields high enough to manufacturer them. We are assuming they have finally solved that problem.

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post #108 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 08:46 AM
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Re epson, the rumor is that it is a laser hybrid machine that uses LCOS and that they have run into regulatory approval issues due to the laser having too much power. Just a rumore though.

Man things are dull around here now.

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post #109 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
They showed them at CEDIA two years ago, but could not get yields high enough to manufacturer them. We are assuming they have finally solved that problem.
This could be a game-changer for those of us who have been loyal to JVC. Epson, has always provided good quality at a great price and they have the focus and the infrastructure to innovate in this area as it is one of their primary product lines. I may be changing brands this year, which would be welcome as I think Epson generally provides better, value, customer support and long-term reliability.

John
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post #110 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 09:36 AM
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They showed them at CEDIA two years ago, but could not get yields high enough to manufacturer them. We are assuming they have finally solved that problem.

Actually Epson first showed their LCoS prototype at CEDIA in 2011, 3 years ago then again a year later. As you said they had manufacturing problems and put the development on the back burner but it appears they continued to work on the LCD reflective (LCoS) technology and manufacturing processes. At the time they first showed a prototype projector at CEDIA in 2011 it appeared the native contrast was similar to JVC entry level RS4x series but with the addition of a DI this added the wow factor to what the Epson could do for black levels. Since JVC has now added their own DI (or II as JVC calls it), I would expect any Epson LCD offering to be competitive with such JVC models as the RS4910 in terms of on/off contrast, both native and dynamic. By the way Epson has provided one of their new projectors to at least one reviewer (a little birdie tells me), but under NDA until CEDIA.
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post #111 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Actually Epson first showed their LCoS prototype at CEDIA in 2011, 3 years ago then again a year later. As you said they had manufacturing problems and put the development on the back burner but it appears they continued to work on the LCD reflective (LCoS) technology and manufacturing processes. At the time they first showed a prototype projector at CEDIA in 2011 it appeared the native contrast was similar to JVC entry level RS4x series but with the addition of a DI this added the wow factor to what the Epson could do for black levels. Since JVC has now added their own DI (or II as JVC calls it), I would expect any Epson LCD offering to be competitive with such JVC models as the RS4910 in terms of on/off contrast, both native and dynamic. By the way Epson has provided one of their new projectors to at least one reviewer (a little birdie tells me), but under NDA until CEDIA.
Thanks - good stuff. This year could get very interesting.

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post #112 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 10:47 AM
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I realize that few others here care much but the big question for me is whether or not any of the big three (Sony, JVC and Epson) will be able to give us DLP quality 3D along with high contrast and a bright 3D image? If one of them can give me that then I'll be upgrading. I guess Art already knows if that's possible -- at least as far as Epson is concerned. I'm not holding my breath.
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post #113 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 11:17 AM
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My bank account says my 4910 has to last at least one more year. I gotta stop reading this thread!
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post #114 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 11:25 AM
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I remember selling my rs55 in preparation of getting a native 4k JVC. I hope they get it right.
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post #115 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 11:48 AM
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My bank account says my 4910 has to last at least one more year. I gotta stop reading this thread!
lol

Well, I sold my Panasonic VT60 plasma and purchased my RS4810 back in April which was a b-stock and very good deal, so I allowed myself the "possibility" of upgrading end of year if the 1080p 2D performance upgrade would be worth it. If not, I have no issues keeping my RS4810 as I really like the image on it. However, I am always tempted to upgrade if the price and performance is right for me. Hence, the life of a video enthusiast.

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post #116 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
They use Red, Green, and Blue LEDs. No filters involved. See here, there are LEDs for each color.
Thanks for that. I always thought they used a color filter for each LED.

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post #117 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by nohjy View Post
This could be a game-changer for those of us who have been loyal to JVC. Epson, has always provided good quality at a great price and they have the focus and the infrastructure to innovate in this area as it is one of their primary product lines. I may be changing brands this year, which would be welcome as I think Epson generally provides better, value, customer support and long-term reliability.

John
I agree with your last sentence, as a couple of us at that '11 Cedia said the same thing about Epson. Then they laid an egg. Now the question is would you trust an Epson LCOS when they have had so much trouble with the technology?


Ron,
You are spot on. One thing I would say is that IIRC the Epson LCOS was supposed to be around 20k to 1 on/off. I believe that was without the DI. In the demos I was in, the DI was not used. I remember this well, because Greg was asked and he replied that he didn't like DIs and thought they did more harm than good. I was sitting beside Darin at the time and could almost sense the Video Hulk ready to explode.

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post #118 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Actually Epson first showed their LCoS prototype at CEDIA in 2011, 3 years ago then again a year later. As you said they had manufacturing problems and put the development on the back burner but it appears they continued to work on the LCD reflective (LCoS) technology and manufacturing processes. At the time they first showed a prototype projector at CEDIA in 2011 it appeared the native contrast was similar to JVC entry level RS4x series but with the addition of a DI this added the wow factor to what the Epson could do for black levels. Since JVC has now added their own DI (or II as JVC calls it), I would expect any Epson LCD offering to be competitive with such JVC models as the RS4910 in terms of on/off contrast, both native and dynamic. By the way Epson has provided one of their new projectors to at least one reviewer (a little birdie tells me), but under NDA until CEDIA.
I wondered if it was going on three years, but thought it could not have been that long ago.

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post #119 of 340 Old 08-21-2014, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Actually Epson first showed their LCoS prototype at CEDIA in 2011, 3 years ago then again a year later. As you said they had manufacturing problems and put the development on the back burner but it appears they continued to work on the LCD reflective (LCoS) technology and manufacturing processes. At the time they first showed a prototype projector at CEDIA in 2011 it appeared the native contrast was similar to JVC entry level RS4x series but with the addition of a DI this added the wow factor to what the Epson could do for black levels. Since JVC has now added their own DI (or II as JVC calls it), I would expect any Epson LCD offering to be competitive with such JVC models as the RS4910 in terms of on/off contrast, both native and dynamic. By the way Epson has provided one of their new projectors to at least one reviewer (a little birdie tells me), but under NDA until CEDIA.
So Art has a review unit. Looking forward to his review. Art has always liked the Epsons.

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post #120 of 340 Old 08-23-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I realize that few others here care much but the big question for me is whether or not any of the big three (Sony, JVC and Epson) will be able to give us DLP quality 3D along with high contrast and a bright 3D image? If one of them can give me that then I'll be upgrading. I guess Art already knows if that's possible -- at least as far as Epson is concerned. I'm not holding my breath.
I second (3rD?) this.
As an aside, I'm a lot more sceptical regarding laser light sources than I once was, 'tho I'm glad to hear you seem to be having satisfactory results w/ your LED/Laser hybrid...
I've been living with a second-gen Mits LaserVue (L75-A91) for four years now. The idea of not needing to change bulbs and long-lasting brightness plus bright high quality 3D were appealing (not to mention the 75" screen size). 2cd year it seemed a fair bit dimmer to me but thought maybe it was my imagination (wish I'd bought measuring eqpt. now). 3 yrs definitely dimmer. 4 yrs in and it dimmed to point of being unwatchable even in fully darkened room and now the set has gone out completely. I *wish* the fix was as easy as changing a bulb. My experience might not be typical but there do seem to be a lot of LaserVue owners out there now with dimming/dying sets. Perhaps laser light sources can be a better $$ return in projectors in terms of brightness longevity, but I'm not as convinced as I once was. Perhaps hybrid or the laser-activated phosphor solutions will fare better (I wouldn't rule out a high-brightness LED solution at some point either), but I remain concerned about lasers dimming over time more than previously thought.
Either way gimme a bright 3D projector with great blacks and contrast + great 2D characteristics and I'll be happy. For a while lol; we only want it all right?
[]-)
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