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Old 08-23-2014, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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New Sony PJs to Be Announced in September?

It's almost September and IFA and CEDIA are just behind the corner. Are there any rumours with regard to what new beamers Sony would introduce this autumn? I'm thinking it may be time to retire my reliable but six-year old VPL-VW60 (Black Pearl). I hope there are exciting news ahead...
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
It's almost September and IFA and CEDIA are just behind the corner. Are there any rumours with regard to what new beamers Sony would introduce this autumn? I'm thinking it may be time to retire my reliable but six-year old VPL-VW60 (Black Pearl). I hope there are exciting news ahead...
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:45 PM
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What is expected is a 4K projector below the level of the 500/600ES in performance and cost. It will likely only have mechanical focus, zoom, and lens shift compared to motorized as in the higher end sony models. A cheaper lens, less light out, and perhaps a slightly lowered contrast. This all has been reported in other threads as strong rumors.

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Old 08-24-2014, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Mark. I don't know why but I'm not attracted by 4k, which I consider a gimmick, same as 3D is, in my opinion. I'd love to have a PJ with a high-quality, motorized lens, excellent picture quality and superb contrast. If I won't have to pay a premium for the inclusion of 4k and 3D, I would be the happiest.
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Old 08-24-2014, 12:24 PM
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Mike, would you expect that the cost of the 55ES will drop after the new models are announced? Will the price drop any time soon?

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Old 08-24-2014, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
It's almost September and IFA and CEDIA are just behind the corner. Are there any rumours with regard to what new beamers Sony would introduce this autumn? I'm thinking it may be time to retire my reliable but six-year old VPL-VW60 (Black Pearl). I hope there are exciting news ahead...
I went from the 60 to the 55ES and couldn't be happier across the board. Even though my 60 had developed some issues in low level scenes, the 55ES is sharper, brighter and has better contrast than my 60 ever did. The 60 had been professionally calibrated a couple of times, the 55ES set with the projectorreviews.com settings only. I posted some thumbnails (Iphone shots; about the best I could do) in the 55ES thread today.

There's a lot of performance and value with the 55ES. And I've seen the 1000 with 4k content on a hugeass screen.
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Old 08-24-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
Thanks, Mark. I don't know why but I'm not attracted by 4k, which I consider a gimmick, same as 3D is, in my opinion. I'd love to have a PJ with a high-quality, motorized lens, excellent picture quality and superb contrast. If I won't have to pay a premium for the inclusion of 4k and 3D, I would be the happiest.
Remember that there's more to 4K than just the resolution increase, such as the expanded color space.
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Old 08-24-2014, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Remember that there's more to 4K than just the resolution increase, such as the expanded color space.
Maybe. But one needs an appropriate source of signal, too. To my knowledge, there's not much available in 4k these days.
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Old 08-24-2014, 09:13 PM
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Maybe. But one needs an appropriate source of signal, too. To my knowledge, there's not much available in 4k these days.
The why not buy a high quality 1080p projector? A JVC can be had for loads less and will more than likely have better picture quality then the forthcoming budget Sony 4K machine. If were going to get less contrast, light output, lesser lens quality, ect then expect 4K to be the only attraction to the Sony over a JVC. To some, that may be enough to justify the purchase.

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Old 08-25-2014, 12:10 AM
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I'm hoping for an improved Sony 1080p projector as well. I don't want 4K as I also consider it a gimmick and their input lag makes them useless for gaming.
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Old 08-25-2014, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
I'm hoping for an improved Sony 1080p projector as well. I don't want 4K as I also consider it a gimmick and their input lag makes them useless for gaming.
The 1000ES has an input lag of 46ms. That's faster than many 1080p units.

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Old 08-25-2014, 01:57 AM
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I can understand not buying a 4k projector because of the price. So, if money was not a factor, you really think a 1080p projector is better because its not 4K? Maybe you don't know that the Sony 1000/1100 or Sony 500/600es performs much better then the other 1080p Sony projectors. Just because there are very little 4k content does not mean that they are not capable of playing the content available.
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Old 08-25-2014, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The 1000ES has an input lag of 46ms. That's faster than many 1080p units.
Thats not half bad, although you really shouldn't go above 30ms. The more affordable Sony 4K has 100ms.

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So, if money was not a factor, you really think a 1080p projector is better because its not 4K? Maybe you don't know that the Sony 1000/1100 or Sony 500/600es performs much better then the other 1080p Sony projectors.
Price will always be a factor. But I compared the VW1000 with the HW55 and from 3,5 meters and a 100" screen, the difference was negligible. I later compared the JVC X500 to a VW500 from 4 meters away looking at a 150" screen. I prefered the JVC which is a 1080p projector (horrid for gaming though)
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Old 08-25-2014, 04:25 AM
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Price will always be a factor. But I compared the VW1000 with the HW55 and from 3,5 meters and a 100" screen, the difference was negligible. I later compared the JVC X500 to a VW500 from 4 meters away looking at a 150" screen. I prefered the JVC which is a 1080p projector (horrid for gaming though)
It sounds to me like you're giving resolution "credit" where it is not due. The reasons you liked the JVC better had nothing to do with the fact that it is 1080p, it has to do with different design choices by JVC vs Sony. Specifically, I would bet you preferred it because JVC has focused almost exclusively on getting maximum contrast from their machines while Sony seems to shoot for a more balanced product, resulting in JVCs having benchmark contrast, and by a rather large margin.

4K is the future of Sony, and as such, any performance improvements are going to be put into 4K machines. This happens with every increase in display resolution, and every manufacturer, there comes a point at which you have to go to the higher resolution display to get the overall performance improvements. I would not expect to see a "high end" or "high performance" (higher than the HW55 or VW90) 1080p machine from Sony, they're done with 1080p. They'll keep it (1080p) around to hit a price point, until they can get 4k down to that price point at least.

FWIW, I think we're just about done with seeing improvements to 1080p displays. We may see one more round this year at CEDIA (if the new JVCs are still 1080p), but Sony, TI, sounds like even Epson have all thrown their eggs in the 4k basket and that's going to be where you'll see PQ improvements going forward.
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Old 08-25-2014, 04:51 AM
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It sounds to me like you're giving resolution "credit" where it is not due. The reasons you liked the JVC better had nothing to do with the fact that it is 1080p, it has to do with different design choices by JVC vs Sony. Specifically, I would bet you preferred it because JVC has focused almost exclusively on getting maximum contrast from their machines while Sony seems to shoot for a more balanced product, resulting in JVCs having benchmark contrast, and by a rather large margin
Im very much aware the JVC isn't better due to its lower resolution. But it clearly proves resolution isn't everything. Even on large screens. Like the threadstarter, Im not so attracted by 4K, and my hope for this fall is a lightning fast 1080p projector to go nicely along with my PS4.
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Old 08-25-2014, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The 1000ES has an input lag of 46ms. That's faster than many 1080p units.

Are you rounding to get to 46 ms? The input lag will have some variance depending on the source input, i or p, and varies with some menu settings. It needs to be measured multiple times under various input and output conditions and published as a mean and median with a publish standard deviation.God forbid that it be say 47.9 ms plus or minus 2. This is the AV Science forum.

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Old 08-25-2014, 07:36 AM
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Mike, would you expect that the cost of the 55ES will drop after the new models are announced? Will the price drop any time soon?
Pricing will not drop, until the 55 goes off of SURE price protection and when that happens, nearly all of them will be gone.

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Old 08-25-2014, 10:47 AM
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The new Sony 4K model (the one below the 500/600ES) should be announced at IFA Berlin on Sept. 3 according to this press release from Sony:


https://translate.google.com/transla...y%2F&edit-text=
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:57 AM
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How is a higher res (not even factoring in the other stuff that should hopefully come with the UHD standard later on) a gimmick? Do people who think that also say the same thing when Full HD came out compared to SD?

I can understand the opinion that it isn't important now given the general lack of commercial 4k content but to imply a higher resolution is a gimmick is IMO silly. Yes, resolution is only one part of image quality and I'd take a FHD display with a higher contrast ratio over a UHD with a lower CR but if the CRs and other aspects are equal then give me the higher res any day of the week.
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Old 08-25-2014, 12:50 PM
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I personally think 4K will make a difference with my 120" screen but not nearly as much as going from SD to even 720p, much less 1080p. Is it worth spending thousands just for a tiny increase in detail? Probably not. Throw in some other things and the answer may be yes. The projector manufacturers will have to have some meaningful upgrades (4K, laser light source, high on/off and stellar 3D) to entice me to buy one of their new products. I wish them luck!
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
It's almost September and IFA and CEDIA are just behind the corner. Are there any rumours with regard to what new beamers Sony would introduce this autumn? I'm thinking it may be time to retire my reliable but six-year old VPL-VW60 (Black Pearl). I hope there are exciting news ahead...
I'm same as you, VW60, the Darbee darblet gave me enough to wait till 2016 for technology to settle down on 4k/ etc .

Do you have a Darbee darblet?
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you have a Darbee darblet?
I don't. And, shamefully enough, I don't even know what that is exactly.
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:44 PM
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New Sony PJs to Be Announced in September?

^^^
Best $300 upgrade IMO for PJ

Look in the video processors forum?

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Old 08-25-2014, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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How is a higher res (not even factoring in the other stuff that should hopefully come with the UHD standard later on) a gimmick?
At this point in time, I think 4k is a manufacturer's gimmick. They are trying to innovate with all kinds of improvements and make the TVs sound revolutionary so that the public will but into them. We, the enthusiasts, might spend some money on these so-called innovations. I am not that sure about the general public. Let me remind you a few facts:

1. HD television (720p and 1080p) was introduced in the mid-'90s. It took more than ten years until the general population started to buy into it.

a. Most people were used to watch TV from relatively far away and did not see a big difference in picture quality to justify the cost to buy a new television set. Most people were also not used to replacing the TV every five years, but rather at 10-20 years intervals.
b. I bought my first HD TV in 2002, it was a 300 lb Sony KV-40XBR800 CRT television. Most people who saw it were not impressed by its picture quality versus SD.
c. Two changes made the difference: (i) the introduction of flat screen, thin TVs, which people saw as fashionable, trendy and cool. They did not care about the PQ as much as they cared about the TV's small thickness. Many continued to watch only SD programming on their state-of-the-art units; and (ii) the discontinuation of the CRT TVs, which forced people who had to upgrade to buy HD TVs as there were no other choices left.

2. At the end of the 2000s, manufacturers realized that most people upgraded their TVs to HD TV units and the sales began to decrease. They had to find new ways to attract buyers. So, here comes:

a. The 3D gimmick. Obviously a failure. Unless in a dedicated HT, how many people would be willing to wear weird spectacles to watch 3D TV? Also, many people do other things while watching TV and the 3D spectacles would not allow that any longer. And many would feel nauseatic after watching 3D programming for a while. Epic failure.
b. After the 3D gimmick failed, they came up with 4k. This may have more PQ benefits and us, enthusiasts, will appreciate this. For the general population, though, who have recently upgraded their TVs, the slight increase in perceived PQ and the lack of 4k programming will not make the new technology worthwhile. It will take another 10+ years to mass adoption and only if the manufacturers will stop making 1080p display gear. Unfortunately, they already made the TVs very thin, so I am not sure what the manufacturers could change to further increase the coolness factor.

The same can be said about the PJs, too. 4k is a technology for enthusiasts only for now and for the foreseeable immediate future, I think.
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^
Best $300 upgrade IMO for PJ

Look in the video processors forum?

Here, read and drink the Kool-aid
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If it's something that alters and post-processes the image, not for me, thanks. I run an unaltered video channel straight from the Blu-ray player, through the receiver to the projector.
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:35 PM
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When I read comments about 4k not being important I think about phone and tablet crazy resolutions. My tablet is 1920x1280 at 8.9"... more pixels than my projector at 120". When are we getting Retina Display projectors...
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
At this point in time, I think 4k is a manufacturer's gimmick.
I was going to disagree with you, but most of the definitions for "gimmick" are in fact accurate for 4K and most things we enjoy:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gimmick
  • an ingenious or novel mechanical device
  • an important feature that is not immediately apparent
  • an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle


Though I believe you were getting at this: "a trick or device used to attract business or attention".

4K falls quite squarely into the more positive definitions and is definitely not a "trick"

Quote:
1. HD television (720p and 1080p) was introduced in the mid-'90s. It took more than ten years until the general population started to buy into it.
So is HD a "gimmick", a trick?

Quote:
a. Most people were used to watch TV from relatively far away and did not see a big difference in picture quality to justify the cost to buy a new television set. Most people were also not used to replacing the TV every five years, but rather at 10-20 years intervals.
b. I bought my first HD TV in 2002, it was a 300 lb Sony KV-40XBR800 CRT television. Most people who saw it were not impressed by its picture quality versus SD.
c. Two changes made the difference: (i) the introduction of flat screen, thin TVs, which people saw as fashionable, trendy and cool. They did not care about the PQ as much as they cared about the TV's small thickness. Many continued to watch only SD programming on their state-of-the-art units; and (ii) the discontinuation of the CRT TVs, which forced people who had to upgrade to buy HD TVs as there were no other choices left.
I don't think any of that made HD a "trick".

Quote:
2. At the end of the 2000s, manufacturers realized that most people upgraded their TVs to HD TV units and the sales began to decrease. They had to find new ways to attract buyers. So, here comes:

a. The 3D gimmick. Obviously a failure. Unless in a dedicated HT, how many people would be willing to wear weird spectacles to watch 3D TV? Also, many people do other things while watching TV and the 3D spectacles would not allow that any longer. And many would feel nauseatic after watching 3D programming for a while. Epic failure.
b. After the 3D gimmick failed, they came up with 4k. This may have more PQ benefits and us, enthusiasts, will appreciate this. For the general population, though, who have recently upgraded their TVs, the slight increase in perceived PQ and the lack of 4k programming will not make the new technology worthwhile. It will take another 10+ years to mass adoption and only if the manufacturers will stop making 1080p display gear. Unfortunately, they already made the TVs very thin, so I am not sure what the manufacturers could change to further increase the coolness factor.
4K's been in the works for way more than the last "few" years, technology is just finally making it practical.

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The same can be said about the PJs, too. 4k is a technology for enthusiasts only for now and for the foreseeable immediate future, I think.
Just because something is niche or of limited interest, doesn't make it a "trick" or "gimmick"

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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
If it's something that alters and post-processes the image, not for me, thanks. I run an unaltered video channel straight from the Blu-ray player, through the receiver to the projector.
Everything you see is altered and post processed. Do you calibrate your home projector for <2000:1 sequential contrast to match what you get in a theater? Do you disable scaling and watch 480p and 720p in small windows on your projector? Or do you have a separate projector with the correct native resolution for everything you watch? What exactly does it mean to not be "post processed"? What is "accurate"? Unless you are watching on exactly the same display that was used for the mastering what you see on your screen is altered. Unless you watch on the same DCI machine that you saw at the theater, what you see is altered.

Regardless of whether there is any digital processing turned on, or introduced, every projector (it's imaging device, lens, light engine, lamp) and every screen "alter" the image and impart their own fingerprint on the image.

The point is, "accurate" is not black and white, and it's not as simple as just turning off features. Darbee, the best way I can describe it, is like a lens compensation system. It produces an image that is approximate to having a projector with a better lens, with better sharpness and higher MTF. It does not "alter" the image, it's like upgrading to a better projector, but for $300 instead of $3000 or $30,000 (obviously not to say it's equivalent).

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When I read comments about 4k not being important I think about phone and tablet crazy resolutions. My tablet is 1920x1280 at 8.9"... more pixels than my projector at 120". When are we getting Retina Display projectors...
Yup, that's what I'm waiting for. There's more to resolution than simply not "seeing" pixels.
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:58 PM
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I think 4K right now in and of itself is a gimmick as it's being marketed by the manufacturers because there is not much content at all (I have zero interesting in streaming), yet which exists is said to be barely different than a good Blu-ray, but more so: there is no way telling how today's 4K displays will handle the new spec and HDCP with upcoming 4K Blu-ray. Today's 4K displays will not take advantage of whatever the new color gamut will be, nor the expanded dynamic range as I understand it. These are just as important to resolution IMO. I would only buy a 4K projector today for it's optics and general performance of optimizing 1080p as others have said. I do think once the spec is evolved within the projectors and there is 4K Blu (or least high quality 4K steaming/downloading), it will be a worthwhile upgrade over 1080p.


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Old 08-25-2014, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Remember that there's more to 4K than just the resolution increase, such as the expanded color space.
Potentially, Not yet.

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Old 08-25-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by Michael9009: "The 3D gimmick. Obviously a failure. Unless in a dedicated HT, how many people would be willing to wear weird spectacles to watch 3D TV? Also, many people do other things while watching TV and the 3D spectacles would not allow that any longer. And many would feel nauseatic after watching 3D programming for a while. Epic failure."

3D certainly isn't the success the studios and manufacturers may have hoped for but I wouldn't call it an epic failure. I think 4K will also find a niche and survive. I bought a relatively expensive state-of-the-art 2D to 3D converter and now watch nearly everything in 3D -- I don't have a problem with the glasses at all -- small price to pay to avoid flat in my opinion. There seems to be a steady flow of movies coming out in 3D so how does it qualify as an "obvious failure"? I think you're going to be disappointed with the long-term survival of both 3D and 4K -- they may not ever dominate the market (I'm not sure anyone ever expected them to) but I think they have already established some success (4K T.V.s are selling).
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