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post #1 of 52 Old 08-26-2014, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Would you buy an Epson LCOS/LCOQ?

The title says it all. Three years ago, Epson unveiled their LCOS/LCOQ pj at Cedia. After attending two demos with some well known AVSers, we all thought it was a very nice pj. Of course, Epson never was able to produce the pj supposedly do to chip yield issues.

Now three years later, Epson is rumored to be coming out with a LCOS/LCOQ again. Given their past problems, would you trust that they have worked out the kinks. Epson customer service has usually been great. The problem is would you be willing to deal with the issues of defective pjs no matter how great they may be to deal with?

Personally, I am on the fence. If the pj is great and most importantly priced right, then I might be willing to give them a chance. If it is roughly equal in performance and price to the JVCs, then I would probably pass.

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post #2 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 05:33 AM
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Epson did the right thing by not introducing a projector that would potentially have problems. For some reason people here were disappointed that Epson wouldn't give them a chance to purchase a potentially defective projector -- ??? If Epson had never shown the projector in the first place and then worked out the problems before introducing it no one would have been the wiser -- should this have made a difference? Why should Epson be penalized for being prudent? I'm not particularly worried about the performance of its panels but rather the performance of its 3D. Epson along with JVC and Sony have demonstrated over the past three or four years that they can't get 3D right. Can one of them finally make a break through and give us ghost-free 3D?
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post #3 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
The title says it all. Three years ago, Epson unveiled their LCOS/LCOQ pj at Cedia. After attending two demos with some well known AVSers, we all thought it was a very nice pj. Of course, Epson never was able to produce the pj supposedly do to chip yield issues.

Now three years later, Epson is rumored to be coming out with a LCOS/LCOQ again. Given their past problems, would you trust that they have worked out the kinks. Epson customer service has usually been great. The problem is would you be willing to deal with the issues of defective pjs no matter how great they may be to deal with?

Personally, I am on the fence. If the pj is great and most importantly priced right, then I might be willing to give them a chance. If it is roughly equal in performance and price to the JVCs, then I would probably pass.
Three years ago an LCOS with DI from Epson would have been viewed as ground breaking. Now that JVC has done this, I don't see Epson making as big of a splash, unless, they do it with price or have some other highly wanted feature. Keep in mind, if they do not have lens memory, then they will still be a step behind JVC. We will find out shortly. As to your question, Epson has had three plus years to work on this, surely they have worked out the problem. It is not like they are breaking new ground. Sony and JVC has been successfully manufacturing these chips for years. Probably all they would have had to do was hire a couple (Sony/JVC) retired engineers to help them solve the problem.

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post #4 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 05:59 AM
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Three years ago an LCOS with DI from Epson would have been viewed as ground breaking. Now that JVC has done this, I don't see Epson making as big of a splash, unless, they do it with price or have some other highly wanted feature. Keep in mind, if they do not have lens memory, then they will still be a step behind JVC. We will find out shortly. As to your question, Epson has had three plus years to work on this, surely they have worked out the problem. It is not like they are breaking new ground. Sony and JVC has been successfully manufacturing these chips for years. Probably all they would have had to do was hire a couple (Sony/JVC) retired engineers to help them solve the problem.
Sony's panels don't have the contrast that JVC's do and this is what Epson's panels were supposed to do -- give us JVC like native on/off contrast. So far only JVC has been able to do this. If Sony could do this it would dominate the market. Sony has used other "tricks" like a DI to give us JVC on/off contrast but it's just a partial solution -- the use of an effective DI, pricing and 4K has kept Sony competitive. High native contrast and now a DI has kept JVC the leader in this area. Epson is attempting to leap-frog Sony and stand side-by-side with JVC. If this was easy Sony would have already done it -- its had lots of time.
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post #5 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 06:36 AM
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Yes. Only if the brightness goes up compared to JVC.
Calibrated of course
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post #6 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 06:58 AM
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let's see what they can do with ANSI, this is one area imo the JVC's could use some help. This became evident recently when I blacked out my room and compared 2 JVC's against my VW1100 and DC4 Planar. The JVC's dominate in low APL scenes, the others have more 'punch' in the mixed APL scenes. I'll take high ANSI and high Native if it's on the menu...

If Epson has only 1080P with this new tech and it's at the rumored price points we've seen then I don't know who the target audience is.


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post #7 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Deja,
I agree that it was a good move to not bring out a defective product. It probably saved them a huge headache.

On the flip side, you say they shouldn't be penalized, but I would say why should they be rewarded when they haven't proven they can produce this technology reliably?

Like Mike said, Epson has to either have a great price or unique feature to be of interest.


I should mention that Pete Putnam reported about five years ago that Epson thought the only way to go higher than 1080p was with LCOS not LCD. If they were to introduce a 4k pj under $10k, then they might have a hit.

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post #8 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Deja,
I agree that it was a good move to not bring out a defective product. It probably saved them a huge headache.

On the flip side, you say they shouldn't be penalized, but I would say why should they be rewarded when they haven't proven they can produce this technology reliably?
I wouldn't penalize them or reward them for delaying. I would just judge them based on their merits, which unfortunately could be a penalty if they haven't made improvements in the past three years. Epson's seem to provide a good value for relatively low cost, but (and maybe this is my incorrect interpretation) they don't seem to produce anything really special. Once calibrated they have average to below average brightness, contrast is again average to below average, I've not heard any rave reviews of their DI implementation.

My gut feeling is an Epson LCoS, today (vs 3 years ago) might simply catch them up to Sony's 1080p machines, to where they're providing a good value still.

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I should mention that Pete Putnam reported about five years ago that Epson thought the only way to go higher than 1080p was with LCOS not LCD. If they were to introduce a 4k pj under $10k, then they might have a hit.
I think they'll have a tough row to hoe if they're much outside of their normal price bracket unless they bring something really special.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #9 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 11:11 AM
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Three years ago an LCOS with DI from Epson would have been viewed as ground breaking. Now that JVC has done this, I don't see Epson making as big of a splash, unless, they do it with price or have some other highly wanted feature. Keep in mind, if they do not have lens memory, then they will still be a step behind JVC. We will find out shortly. As to your question, Epson has had three plus years to work on this, surely they have worked out the problem. It is not like they are breaking new ground. Sony and JVC has been successfully manufacturing these chips for years. Probably all they would have had to do was hire a couple (Sony/JVC) retired engineers to help them solve the problem.
there's still a hole in the market imo. especially if jvc doesn't release a replacement for the x35 soon.


Epson could fill a need for a $2k lcos projector, or for a lcos projector with more lumens. even if they don't give us more calibrated lumens, like the 5030, there's still an advantage to having the ability to pump out more lumens only when you need it. I think most ppl would take 1600lumens with blue push over 700 calibrated lumens when they host their fantasy draft and want to put the info up on their screen while keeping all the room lights on. as long as there's not disadvantage with the calibrated performance, the option for more lumens is always a bonus.

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post #10 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 11:44 AM
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Three years ago an LCOS with DI from Epson would have been viewed as ground breaking. Now that JVC has done this, I don't see Epson making as big of a splash, unless, they do it with price or have some other highly wanted feature. Keep in mind, if they do not have lens memory, then they will still be a step behind JVC. We will find out shortly. As to your question, Epson has had three plus years to work on this, surely they have worked out the problem. It is not like they are breaking new ground. Sony and JVC has been successfully manufacturing these chips for years. Probably all they would have had to do was hire a couple (Sony/JVC) retired engineers to help them solve the problem.
there's still a hole in the market imo. especially if jvc doesn't release a replacement for the x35 soon.


Epson could fill a need for a $2k lcos projector, or for a lcos projector with more lumens. even if they don't give us more calibrated lumens, like the 5030, there's still an advantage to having the ability to pump out more lumens only when you need it. I think most ppl would take 1600lumens with blue push over 700 calibrated lumens when they host their fantasy draft and want to put the info up on their screen while keeping all the room lights on. as long as there's not disadvantage with the calibrated performance, the option for more lumens is always a bonus.
I believe it was stated somewhere these could be 8k-10k dollar range.
If true Epson better do more that total brightness and up the calibrated brightness. If not, these better be 4k projectors at those prices.
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post #11 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 11:46 AM
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The push on the Epson LCD's is green, not blue in torch mode. Living room mode can be calibrated somewhat close to D65 at around 1100 lumens but the gamma is very odd in this mode. it's fine for most TV viewing.


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post #12 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 11:58 AM
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I don't get the defective bit. Epson cancelled production because of the economics associated with low chip yields. Too expensive to manufacturer and still sell at a price point where sales would be generated. Where did you get the defective bit from?

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post #13 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 12:12 PM
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I don't get the defective bit. Epson cancelled production because of the economics associate with low chip yields. Too expensive to manufacturer and still sell at a price point where sales would be generated. where did you get the defective bit from?
I agree, kinda strange to bash a company for being responsible and aware of both their product and the market.


if your product isn't ready to be successful, it should be postponed. ppl would have a far more legitimate complaint if they spend thousands on a product that was 'defective'.

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post #14 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 12:21 PM
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My personal potential hesitation with an Epson Lcos would be the same with any company introducing a new technology for their first time: how well will the projector age? I've talked to three well known pro calibrators who told me Sony's earlier SXRDs deteriorated over time and each year they came out to re-cal them, they couldn't get the calibration as good as before and there were also losses in contrast ratio; however, Sony did end up fixing this issue as this is not the case with the more recent year models. This is not a knock on Epson or anyone and I would consider an Epson next year if it surpasses my RS4810 in performance with features I want (CMS, zoom memories, maybe an e-shift) and the price is right - but the fact this is their first go-around manufacturing such units is in the back of my mind. But, I am very curious and interested in seeing what they release and the reviews from reputable sources.


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post #15 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 01:43 PM
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Sony's panels don't have the contrast that JVC's do and this is what Epson's panels were supposed to do -- give us JVC like native on/off contrast. So far only JVC has been able to do this. If Sony could do this it would dominate the market. Sony has used other "tricks" like a DI to give us JVC on/off contrast but it's just a partial solution -- the use of an effective DI, pricing and 4K has kept Sony competitive. High native contrast and now a DI has kept JVC the leader in this area. Epson is attempting to leap-frog Sony and stand side-by-side with JVC. If this was easy Sony would have already done it -- its had lots of time.
This isn't quite true. It's the way Sony engineers their light engine that prevents them from getting contrast that high. If you take a look at what Mitsubishi did on their HC-9000D you'll see that getting 20,000:1 on/off at full brightness if definitely possible with Sony's latest SXRD panels. This is just 5000:1 off of what JVC can do. That isn't much. If Sony wanted to, they could match what JVC is doing. My guess is that, like JVC, you'd need to invest a lot into R&D to get better wire grid polarizers and a better light engine design to do this.

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post #16 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 01:46 PM
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If Epson can deliver equal native contrast of the current generation JVCs while also including comparable lens quality, convergence tolerances, light output, and higher ANSI contrast, I'd be happy to check one out. But, from what I've seen on their "cheaper" models convergence is usually far worse than the typical JVC, lens quality isn't as nice, and calibrated light output is much lower. Epson really needs to take their entire approach a big step forward if they want to compete with the likes of JVC and Sony.

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post #17 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 03:02 PM
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This isn't quite true. It's the way Sony engineers their light engine that prevents them from getting contrast that high. If you take a look at what Mitsubishi did on their HC-9000D you'll see that getting 20,000:1 on/off at full brightness if definitely possible with Sony's latest SXRD panels. This is just 5000:1 off of what JVC can do. That isn't much. If Sony wanted to, they could match what JVC is doing. My guess is that, like JVC, you'd need to invest a lot into R&D to get better wire grid polarizers and a better light engine design to do this.
I believe Mits used Sony panels for the 9000 and Panasonic to handle their FI implementation - circa 2009 and targeting a $8000+ pj. By the time they got their act together they were hopelessly behind the market. The HC5, that I had in my theater for three months, was supposed to have the same components as the 9000 was not even as good, imo, as my 2009 jvc rs10 that I had at the same time.

Epson seems to be one of the few companies that has the R&D money, but I hope their coming RLCD has moved on from three years ago when they were showing the original model. MSRP info is in pounds, but probably in the $5-7k range for the home and pro version. Puts it right in the established JVC mid tier and they will have to be something special to perform here - unless they are just targeting current Epson pj owners.

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post #18 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 03:34 PM
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This isn't quite true. It's the way Sony engineers their light engine that prevents them from getting contrast that high. If you take a look at what Mitsubishi did on their HC-9000D you'll see that getting 20,000:1 on/off at full brightness if definitely possible with Sony's latest SXRD panels. This is just 5000:1 off of what JVC can do. That isn't much. If Sony wanted to, they could match what JVC is doing. My guess is that, like JVC, you'd need to invest a lot into R&D to get better wire grid polarizers and a better light engine design to do this.

R&D is not necessary to get much higher performing wire grid polarizers.

You just have to purchase them at a much higher cost and raise your dealer selling cost to cover those increased costs.

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post #19 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 03:41 PM
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For all you guys know, these new Epsons may be worth the money. We (and I mean you and me) don't have a clue about their performance. They might be Viagra like. A new chip on a new block. Two more weeks of let's say meaningless posts until We know more and then we can blow it up without ever seeing as we are in reside in the all knowing never ever internet land. Show reports won't help much until We can conduct side by sides.

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post #20 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't get the defective bit. Epson cancelled production because of the economics associated with low chip yields. Too expensive to manufacturer and still sell at a price point where sales would be generated. Where did you get the defective bit from?
This is an important clarification and you are probably more informed than me. I am still in diapers after all.

I was under the impression that they didn't produce any chips without defects. If you are correct, then that does change the perception.

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post #21 of 52 Old 08-27-2014, 09:43 PM
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I doubt most of them are perfect, which is why they have a tolerance limit when they quality control them. I think the issue was that their yield of RLCDs was much lower than they could afford to mass produce the projector with. There were too many that they had to throw away or recycle. The cost of the low yields was too high for them to swallow at the time. This seems to have changed in that they either changed some things about the chip or fixed something on the manufacturing level of the original design. Probably a combination of both.

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post #22 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 12:35 PM
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there's still a hole in the market imo. especially if jvc doesn't release a replacement for the x35 soon.


Epson could fill a need for a $2k lcos projector, or for a lcos projector with more lumens. even if they don't give us more calibrated lumens, like the 5030, there's still an advantage to having the ability to pump out more lumens only when you need it. I think most ppl would take 1600lumens with blue push over 700 calibrated lumens when they host their fantasy draft and want to put the info up on their screen while keeping all the room lights on. as long as there's not disadvantage with the calibrated performance, the option for more lumens is always a bonus.
You get that advantage with LCD, but I think that advantage goes away when they go to LCOS.

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post #23 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 12:40 PM
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This is an important clarification and you are probably more informed than me. I am still in diapers after all.

I was under the impression that they didn't produce any chips without defects. If you are correct, then that does change the perception.
I believe Mark is correct. Not getting a high enough percentage of chips to pass was the problem, from my understanding, not defective.

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post #24 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 01:07 PM
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let's see what they can do with ANSI, this is one area imo the JVC's could use some help. This became evident recently when I blacked out my room and compared 2 JVC's against my VW1100 and DC4 Planar. The JVC's dominate in low APL scenes, the others have more 'punch' in the mixed APL scenes. I'll take high ANSI and high Native if it's on the menu...

If Epson has only 1080P with this new tech and it's at the rumored price points we've seen then I don't know who the target audience is.
I've heard this said before but I've done brightness matched comparisons with the JVC and the Sony 1100 and I didn't see any ANSI benefit from one to the other. If I run the Sony brighter the image definitely looks punchier, and it's nice to have that option with the Sony vice the JVC, but if both were set to the same level of brightness I couldn't see any benefits to the higher ANSI of the Sony.

I thought the on/off of the Sony was quiet good but still has a long way to go compared to the JVC. Their iris is VERY good with a full blackout but add so much as a dot of white to the image and the black floor raises substantially, something you don't see with the JVC. These really are two outstanding projectors but they are really made for different room/screen size requirements. The JVC just can't get near the brightness I see with the 1100, but the 1100 can't get the same contrast performance with low APL material. It's simply a matter of which one you can and can't live with. The beauty of it is no matter what it's a win/win for the end user as they both look fantastic.

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post #25 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
You get that advantage with LCD, but I think that advantage goes away when they go to LCOS.
so you're saying there's no way to make lcos brighter, even at the sacrifice of image quality? j guess I just always assumed you could sacrifice quality for brightness regardless of the display tech, never really thought about it.

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post #26 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 01:54 PM
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on the 2 jvc's I have here (rs55/X35) I can see light bleeding into the black bar areas during mixed APL scenes. I would think the internal reflections are also potentially affecting the perceived contrast I didn't see this on the VW1100 or the Planar 8170 with the DC4 I installed recently.

I know this is a hot topic, I recall the mile long thread a few years ago with Darren, discussions of DLP 'pop' and where it comes from, etc. Some say ANSI is worthless, etc. it seems like a never ending discussion.


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post #27 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I've heard this said before but I've done brightness matched comparisons with the JVC and the Sony 1100 and I didn't see any ANSI benefit from one to the other. If I run the Sony brighter the image definitely looks punchier, and it's nice to have that option with the Sony vice the JVC, but if both were set to the same level of brightness I couldn't see any benefits to the higher ANSI of the Sony.

I thought the on/off of the Sony was quiet good but still has a long way to go compared to the JVC. Their iris is VERY good with a full blackout but add so much as a dot of white to the image and the black floor raises substantially, something you don't see with the JVC. These really are two outstanding projectors but they are really made for different room/screen size requirements. The JVC just can't get near the brightness I see with the 1100, but the 1100 can't get the same contrast performance with low APL material. It's simply a matter of which one you can and can't live with. The beauty of it is no matter what it's a win/win for the end user as they both look fantastic.


if you match the brightness, doesn't that mean the only thing that improves ansi contrast is black levels?


I think if you want to compare ansi contrast, you have to allow the brighter projector to be brighter. that's the only way it's a 'fair' contest. I mean you wouldn't crank up the brightness setting on the jvc to 'match black level'. unless I'm not understanding what you mean by matching brightness.

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post #28 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 02:05 PM
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No, ANSI contrast is the difference between black and white with both on the screen (in a nutshell). You can have a lower light output on a DLP than something like the JVC and still come up with a higher ANSI. But if you are comparing two projectors for anything other than peak light output desire, you should ALWAYS brightness match (among other things, like gamma). A brighter image will always inherently look more punchy, but that has nothing to do with ANSI. A brighter image will also bias your eyes more giving you a perception of higher contrast some of the time. Kind of like walking a showfloor (like CEDIA) and seeing a demo and outpouring praise about black levels only to find out later that in a controlled enviroment they don't look nearly as good. Showfloors are bright and booths are dark, so your eye has to have time to adjust otherwise everything looks like it has great black levels.
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post #29 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 02:11 PM
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From what I've read, closing down a manual aperture that's in the lens will actually reduce ANSI contrast. So in the case of the Sony, if you were to brightness match (close down the manual aperture in the lens) and then measure ANSI contrast you'll actually lower what the projector is capable of. This makes sense as to why this happens. Light hits the aperture, is bounced backwards, and scatters throughout the light engine and on the chips surface. This is one of the reasons many DLP projectors use manual and dynamic irises farther back in the light path. For instance, the dynamic iris on the Sim2 lumis is the first thing in the light path after the lamp. The PD8150 has it's DI very close to the beginning of the light path too. They place it directly after the light rod integrator. They engineered it this way on purpose so even when the iris closes down on darker scenes you don't have extra light scatter in the light engine which would reduce ANSI contrast.

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post #30 of 52 Old 08-28-2014, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
I believe Mark is correct. Not getting a high enough percentage of chips to pass was the problem, from my understanding, not defective.

I will take your word for it. I guess we will see in just under two weeks. I will race you to the Epson booth.

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