Questions for Cedia Attendees about the New JVC Projectors - AVS Forum
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Old 09-01-2014, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Questions for Cedia Attendees about the New JVC Projectors

Just like last year, I am starting threads for each brand of projectors shown at Cedia this year that You would like answers from attendees such as the AV Science sales staff, the AV Science forum staff, press, and forum members attending Cedia this year. If you post an appropriate (see below) question or questions, I will include them (with any appropriate substantive edits etc) in the following post to make accessing them for answer easier and to ensure none get overlooked.


The Expo show floor opens at 10AM mountain time on Thursday the 11th. Please do not ask where is my answer on Weds night. Please do not ask where is my answer at all. Attendees need time to see the show, meet with various manufacturers, and enjoy the parties and Denver. When questions are answered, I will post the post number(s) of the answer(s) next to the questions in my questions post (No. 2). Please understand that projector demos are under show conditions. Ambient noise levels are high, lighting and room reflectivity conditions may not be ideal etc and content is controlled. Manufactures do not conduct sales demos where the potential buyers can ask can we play scene X from Gravity for example. A/Bs to previous models are impossible. Questions such as can you notice the improvement in on/off from 40,000 to 45,000 simply can't be answered based on a show viewing. Ditto about the noise improvement from say 23 db to 21 db or the noise level from a moving iris. Can you please check zebra striping improvement this year? I will reject any such question. I will post questions you want a manufacture to answer for presentation by attendees and all appropriate observational questions for attendees.

I am doing this because I am not attending the show and it needs to be done. My only compensation is the likes you give me if you should be so moved.

Request to moderators, would you please make this and the threads for the other brands of projectors a sticky?

PS. Amazing how many views from members thinking there may be some news here before Cedia starts. There won't be.

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Old 09-01-2014, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:26 PM
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A lot of my questions I'd like to be asked are contingent on a few things. If a native 4K projector is released and if it's a new chassis and or light engine design, I'd like to know;

  • What are the specifications of the new lens?
  • For cost reasons (bringing the projector to us at the price you decided on) were there cut backs on lens quality?
  • Has ANSI contrast been increased through better lens quality/coatings?
  • Have the internal reflections that are present on 1080p models, that cause poor ANSI contrast, been cut down in the new light engine's design?
  • Has the "streaking" issue been resolved?
  • Do the native 4K chips handle motion better than previous 1080p chips?
  • 2014 JVC models had particularly high input lag, around 125ms, has this been improved?
  • What can we expect for calibrated lumen output?
  • Has native contrast on the 4K chips stayed the same, increased, or decreased?
  • Has then been any further work done on DI algorithms to better the performance? I would like to see a less agressive mode avaliable. One that can match Sony in flickering issues and a mode that NEVER clips whites (maybe a 2x-3x multiplier).
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Re "were there cut backs in lens quality", from what reference point? From the existing 2K lens which for all we know may be adequate for full resolution of UHD?

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Old 09-02-2014, 08:49 AM
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I've been informed by JVC they are not holding a Press Event at this year's CEDIA Expo. That might mean this year we will just see minor updates to the existing models, or JVC decided to same some money and skip the press event. However, it they were introducing a native 4K model, I would have thought they would have held a press event.
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Old 09-02-2014, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I've been informed by JVC they are not holding a Press Event at this year's CEDIA Expo. That might mean this year we will just see minor updates to the existing models, or JVC decided to same some money and skip the press event. However, it they were introducing a native 4K model, I would have thought they would have held a press event.

Not a bad thing if they don't introduce any new models. Their current models are great.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Pleeze stay on topic. Press conf info is good. Its an info (model numbers, specs, MSRP), questions and answers thread only. i have to manage six such threads and need to look at each post. Comments on what they are going to do re models being introduced and your reactions to same do not belong in this thread.

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Old 09-02-2014, 09:59 AM
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I'm so sorry for commenting on the no press conference info. Didn't know your thread didn't allow comments. LOL
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Old 09-02-2014, 03:46 PM
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I'd like to add the following questions about the new range:


- Are the panels 8 bits or 10bits? [answered: they are 10 bits in the current range already]
- Do they support HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 (and which variant, a or b)?
- Are the HDMI handshake issues present in the 2014 range resolved?
- Are the 12 point gamma controls back or are they gone forever and are we left with the mediocre 3-band controls which replaced them last year?
- Is the CMS usable, i.e. when bringing red or green back towards white at 100% sat, does it still cause severe undersaturation at 75% sat and below? Or is it finally more linear? This has been an issue since they have first introduced their CMS in the rs20, and it has never been corrected, so I'm not holding my breath .
- Alternatively, is the standard color profile wide enough to allow a full rec-709 correction on all units, but not too wide so that we can use the flawed CMS to correct it without causing too much undersaturation? Or is it, like in many of the current and former models, undersaturated and/or with a weird hue on green which causes all the points between green and cyan to be uncorrectable (with the internal CMS or with an external processor)? In other words, do we get either a working CMS or a usable standard profile? Sony has no CMS on their 4K projectors, but they are dead on at all saturation and luminance levels, so it can be done!
- What is the largest native gamut we can calibrate to for film content? Rec-709? P3/DCI?
- Is the QC for panels in the lower model (rs48 last year) better or is it still frequent to have one or more blue stuck pixels on the lower model?


That's about it for me!

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Old 09-02-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Re "were there cut backs in lens quality", from what reference point? From the existing 2K lens which for all we know may be adequate for full resolution of UHD?
Optics size, lens coatings, all glass optics?
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I've been informed by JVC they are not holding a Press Event at this year's CEDIA Expo. That might mean this year we will just see minor updates to the existing models, or JVC decided to same some money and skip the press event. However, it they were introducing a native 4K model, I would have thought they would have held a press event.
Did they decide to just back out? They had a booth reserved
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:46 PM
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Did they decide to just back out? They had a booth reserved
JVC will still be at CEDIA with the consumer group having a booth in the convention center and the Pro group in the Embassy Suites (same as last year). My prior comment was just that JVC in past years has held a press event, only for members of the press, on Thursday morning just before the show opens, but they are not doing that this year. I was speculating that if they had something really big to announce, such as a native 4K projector, then I would have thought they would have held a press event. In any case I've scheduled to meet with them Thursday morning to discuss their new products.

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Old 09-02-2014, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Optics size, lens coatings, all glass optics?

From what? What is your reference level? Are you asking them what compromises they made from a cost no object lens?


With Sony the starting reference is known, the 1000/1100ES lens.

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Old 09-02-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
JVC will still be at CEDIA with the consumer group having a booth in the convention center and the Pro group in the Embassy Suites (same as last year). My prior comment was just that JVC in past years has held a press event, only for members of the press, on Thursday morning just before the show opens, but they are not doing that this year. I was speculating that if they had something really big to announce, such as a native 4K projector, then I would have thought they would have held a press conference. In any case I've scheduled to meet with them Thursday morning to discuss their new products.
Copy, thanks for the clarification!
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
JVC will still be at CEDIA with the consumer group having a booth in the convention center and the Pro group in the Embassy Suites (same as last year). My prior comment was just that JVC in past years has held a press event, only for members of the press, on Thursday morning just before the show opens, but they are not doing that this year. I was speculating that if they had something really big to announce, such as a native 4K projector, then I would have thought they would have held a press conference. In any case I've scheduled to meet with them Thursday morning to discuss their new products.
They haven't had anything big to announce over the past couple of years and yet they still had a press conference. So I would imagine this doesn't rule out the possibility of a 4K machine or a laser light source. They could just as easily release a press statement without holding a conference.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
From what? What is your reference level? Are you asking them what compromises they made from a cost no object lens?


With Sony the starting reference is known, the 1000/1100ES lens.
Mark, the reference is the current lens being used. Let's say they release a 4K model. That would most likely necessitate higher cost processing, a little extra R&D this year, possibly a new (more expensive) light engine. Would they want to save a little through a lesser quality lens? Maybe go with a couple plastic elements, smaller elements, lower quality coatings, ect. This is what I would like to know. No one is expecting 1100ES size and quality glass at half or less the cost.
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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First, it's not known if the current lens is adequate to display a UHD image native. It might be or it might not be. If in the now unlikely event that they show a UHD native projector at Cedia, are you seriously asking if they went to a lesser quality lens to save money for the goodies required for native UHD? Or if the present lens wouldn't resolve UHD adequately and they made a lens capable of the resolution by lowering other qualities in the present 2K lens? I wouldn't expect an answer to either question.

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Old 09-02-2014, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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They haven't had anything big to announce over the past couple of years and yet they still had a press conference. So I would imagine this doesn't rule out the possibility of a 4K machine or a laser light source. They could just as easily release a press statement without holding a conference.

E-shift and II were pretty big.


Maximization of press coverage is a goal. Facilitate the race to publish. help the scoops. No press conference where they already have the space can only be construed as a negative. Their press breakfast was good and the starving press members with very limited per diems now a days, need to eat a good meal for breakfast. They have little if any time for lunch.

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Old 09-02-2014, 07:42 PM
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first, it s not known if the current lens is adequate to display a UHD image native. It might be or it might not be. if in the now unlikely event that they show a UHD native projector at Cedia. Are you seriously asking if they went to a lesser quality lens to save money for the goodies required for native UHD? Or if the present lens wouldn't resolve UHD adequately and they made a lens capable of the resolution by lowering other qualities in the present 2K lens? I wouldn't expect an answer to either question.
Of course I'm serious. If the lens isn't adequate that means a new lens is needed. If they plan on placing the first 4K projector at the current "high end" JVC price point and they still want to keep the profit margin pretty much the same, will that mean the lens will need some compromises to keep it that way? The cost of 4K is higher by nature because the processing/adeqaute upscaling needed. So unless the prices go up initially I don't see them keeping the same lens quality that we're seeing now relative to other sub $10000 projectors. From what I've seen they have one of the nicest lenses at resolving pixels out there in the under $10000 projector market. I would like to see it kept that way with a 4K projector. That's what I want to know. Can we expect, in relative terms to other 4K machines in this price range to come, still some of the best lens quality?
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:48 PM
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E-shift and II were pretty big.


Maximization of press coverage is a goal. Facilitate the race to publish. help the scoops. No press conference where they already have the space can only be construed as a negative. Their press breakfast was good and the starving press members with very limited per diems now a days, need to eat a good meal for breakfast. They have little if any time for lunch.
No where near as big as true 4K and that's my point. And yet they still had a press conference. Did they have a press conference for the 2013 models? (X55, X66 models)? They didn't really add much that year. A new/better bulb, new generation D-ILA panels for improved 3D. Not much. The addition to an otherwise exact same projector is not something I would call "big". Both the DI and E-Shift didn't add a ton of extra image quality. We now have appreciably better black levels and a slight bump in lower APL performance. Nothing that made a JVC largely "better". We already had the best black levels and best low APL level performance without the DI. E-Shift is even less impressive. Most people, including pro-reviewers, state they don't see increased PQ with it enabled. I agree. I think the MPC controls make more noticeable differences in the image than e-shift does. Similar to RC on the Sony models.

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Old 09-04-2014, 04:26 AM
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One more question I'd like to add to my list:


- Are the calibration controls (gamma, greyscale etc) still limited when using the x.v.color mode on the new range? On the existing range, everything is locked when the x.v.color more is selected to play Mastered in 4K blurays, which seriously limits its usefulness (and picture accuracy in that mode).

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Old 09-04-2014, 10:49 AM
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It is too bad you can't apply a base to the x.v.color mode. If you had a good calibrated 709 mode and they just used that for the x.v mode you should be fine. I think the problem they have is that there is no way to accurately calibrate x.v at this time so they locked it out. I don't have a problem with the lock out if you are able to pick the mode they are applying the x.v. points to.

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Old 09-04-2014, 10:59 AM
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It is too bad you can't apply a base to the x.v.color mode. If you had a good calibrated 709 mode and they just used that for the x.v mode you should be fine. I think the problem they have is that there is no way to accurately calibrate x.v at this time so they locked it out. I don't have a problem with the lock out if you are able to pick the mode they are applying the x.v. points to.

Absolutely. But as it is, it's barely usable as soon as the bulb starts aging (it's fine OOTB though if your screen is pretty neutral though).


I understand why they lock the gamut and the HDMI mode and I don't really mind, but I don't understand why they lock color temp/gamma, which is what is most important for PQ (as the x.v.color gamut itself is in essence approximate anyway).


The way to accurately calibrate to xvcolor is to calibrate to rec-709. There is no xvcolor gamut, no specific targets or patterns. It's only an extension in reference to rec-709 and specific to the gamut limitations of each display (what can't be displayed in the native gamut of the display is simply clipped).


Sorry, Mark is going to tell us off now...
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Old 09-04-2014, 11:27 AM
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Question:

WHY THE HELL DO WE NOT HAVE ENOUGH MASKING (blanking) FOR 2.35:1 SCOPE MOVIES YET?...


I don't want the image to spill above and below my screen with movies that change aspect ratios!


And, are they going to add back in the 11 point gamma calibration?
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Old 09-07-2014, 04:44 AM
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Hi MArk,


I'd like to add the following to my list of questions above:


- Will there be a filter - and on which models - to support P3?
- What is the light loss when calibrating to P3 with the filter engaged (if supported) compared to rec-709, both at D65?
- What is the latency when fed a native 4K/UHD signal?
- Is a 4K signal handled as on the last range, i.e. cropped on one side only (right side) to fit the UHD narrower width, or is it cropped equally on both sides?


Thanks!

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Old 09-07-2014, 05:46 AM
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Latency for 1080p as well please. For us console gamers
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Old 09-07-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Also sorts of great questions and comments to others about their questions and predicatory statements to those questions. I haven't posted a list of questions because I am waiting for the model numbers, features, and specs to eliminate questions answered by them.

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Old 09-09-2014, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Since there will be no new JVC projectors introduced at Cedia, I am abandoning this thread and will not aggregate any questions in post 2.

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Old 09-09-2014, 08:51 AM
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Since there will be no new JVC projectors introduced at Cedia, I am abandoning this thread and will not aggregate any questions in post 2.
There are no new JVC projectors at Cedia?
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Old 09-09-2014, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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That is correct. you can read about it in the JVC 2015 thread.

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