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-   -   Questions for Cedia Attendees about the New Epson Projectors (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1667978-questions-cedia-attendees-about-new-epson-projectors.html)

mark haflich 09-01-2014 08:15 AM

Questions for Cedia Attendees about the New Epson Projectors
 
Art's review of the Epson LS10000 was posted on his site, projectorreviews.com early morning 9/10/2014. Most questions posted in post 2 are answered by the review. brief answers to the questions are posted by me just below each question.

Just like last year, I am starting threads for each brand of projectors shown at Cedia this year that You would like answers from attendees such as the AV Science sales staff, the AV Science forum staff, press, and forum members attending Cedia this year. If you post an appropriate (see below) question or questions, I will include them (with any appropriate substantive edits etc) in the following post to make accessing them for answer easier and to ensure none get overlooked.


The Expo show floor opens at 10AM mountain time on Thursday the 11th. Please do not ask where is my answer on Weds night. Please do not ask where is my answer at all. Attendees need time to see the show, meet with various manufacturers, and enjoy the parties and Denver. When questions are answered, I will post the post number(s) of the answer(s) next to the questions in my questions post (No. 2). Please understand that projector demos are under show conditions. Ambient noise levels are high, lighting and room reflectivity conditions may not be ideal etc and content is controlled. Manufactures do not conduct sales demos where the potential buyers can ask can we play scene X from Gravity for example. A/Bs to previous models are impossible. Questions such as can you notice the improvement in on/off from 40,000 to 45,000 simply can't be answered based on a show viewing. Ditto about the noise improvement from say 23 db to 21 db or the noise level from a moving iris. Can you please check zebra striping improvement this year? I will reject any such question. I will post questions you want a manufacture to answer for presentation by attendees and all appropriate observational questions for attendees.

I am doing this because I am not attending the show and it needs to be done. My only compensation is the likes you give me if you should be so moved.

Request to moderators, would you please make this and the threads for the other brands of projectors a sticky?

mark haflich 09-01-2014 08:15 AM

I. Questions regarding the laser/phosphor high end models, the LS9600E and the LS10000?

What color cases does each model come in?

What is the MSRP of the LS10000?

Not yet known, under $8K

What is the expected shipping date of each?

Mid October for the LS10000

How do the two differ other than the 4K shifting enhancement, the inclusion of a a wire cover, 2 pairs of 3D glasses and mount with the LS10000, the longer warranty and different case color, if any?



Does the flagship model have HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2?

Yes.

Does the cheaper one?

Does the DCI mode drop lumens output from the rec 709 mode?

See Art's review. Calibrated to rec 709 you get around 1300 lumens.

Does either or both models have power lens shift?

Both do.

Art has answered this already. Both models have powered zoom, focus and lens shift as well as zoom memories.

3D Lumen output - how far does it drop in 3D mode?

Is the 4K enhancement (e-shift or whatever) available for 1080p 24hz 3D inputs?


How many hours is the expected life time of the light engine?

30K hours in eco mode, Art guesses 20K hours in normal mode

What is the percentage lumens drop at that point?

Is the DI a mechanical iris? Does it utilize dynamic gamma to boost the whites, does it involve dimming of the lasers?

No iris. It controls lumens out and contrast through dynamic dimming of the lasers and offers user controlable maxim light out in sthe dynamic mode.

What is the input latency? Do either model include a low latency game mode? What is the input latency for 4K 60.
The input lag for themode with the least lag is 56ms. See art's review.

What is the guaranteed life span of the laser? Is it 20000 hours of use or less? Is this warranty based on failure or reduced light? If reduced light, how much reduction would trigger warranty repair?

3 year warranty, over night replacement.

What is the length of the laser warranty? Is there a limit in years after which the laser warranty ceases (say after 1/2/3 years) even though the use hour limit is not reached?

3 years of ownership. Running 24/7 you could amass only 8736 hours per year. that would imply a light source warranty of ONLY 26,208 hours. since turn on/turn off would not wear the light engine, no one would want to run it 24/7 for HT use. the warranty I do not think applies to commercial use.

Can the laser be replaced by the end-user when it reaches it end of life and what is the cost of the part(s)?

If the unit has to be sent for service to replace the light source, what is the cost if it's outside of the guaranteed lifespan/warranty of the laser?

Is the light path sealed to prevent dust blobs from forming, or is it unsealed?

sealed but that does not mean the formation of dust blobs can't happen

Obviously filters are used to extract red and green from the spinning yellow phosphor wheel, do these achieve P3 or wider native color space without further filtering aid?

P3 is well within the native color space.

What is the light loss when calibrating to P3 compared to rec-709 (i.e., peak brightness at P3/D65 and peak brightness at rec709/D65)?

Apparently only the flagship model has e-shift. Is that the case?

Yes.

Does the higher model (the one with e-shift) support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2? Which version of HDMI 2.0 (a or b)?

Yes. 10.2 GBS, HDCP 2.2

Can the lower model (the one without eshift) still accept HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 protected content?

What are the available calibration controls? Are they user or service menu ones? Grey scale (how many control points) and CMS?

Is the "infinite black" contrast only effective when the PJ is fed pure black (i.e., laser light source shuts down on black)?

What is the native on/off contrast of the panels without the "infinite black" device/feature if it works as described above, which means it's only relevant on fade to blacks?

Who makes the lens? Are the lens elements all glass? If not, how many are plastic. What is the effective F stop at close throw? What is the effective F stop at far throw?

What are the throw range multiplies based on 1.78 aspect screen width?

Is there electronic key stone correction.

What is the range of the lens shift H and V?

Although you can't possibly have experience over time, there will be some fall off of the lasers. I don't suppose you have any clue as to how this might affect color and gamma? How often the projector will need to be recalibrated for a color fanatic or for a gamma fanatic?


II. Questions regarding as yet unknown model numbers for the 5030/6030.


.

Ron Jones 09-01-2014 03:17 PM

The plan is to have a least a first look, of Epson's new flagship model posted on projectorreviews.com on Thursday (9/11), Hopefully that will answer many of the questions forum members may have. Art and I are scheduled to meet with Epson on Thursday morning and I'll try to post in my BLOG later that day and Art should have more complete info to share on Epson's new flagship model.


My blog will include info about the other Epson models and what updates/upgrades they will be getting for their next generation versions.

mark haflich 09-01-2014 05:36 PM

The review was published early on 9/10/2014 and has been linked in the main Epson new laserish projector thread. This new Epson is likely to be one of the most interesting projectors introduced at Cedia.

tommy def 09-03-2014 01:20 PM

http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs140/...7/img/1161.png


Thought you guys would like this.

Ballis 09-03-2014 01:41 PM

Motherfather! is that for real?! More info please!

Tom Bley 09-03-2014 01:47 PM

So I'm guessing 4k Enhancement is like JVC's E-Shift. Looks interesting, I'm curious what the lumens are, especially callibrated.

DavidHir 09-03-2014 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bley (Post 27110721)
So I'm guessing 4k Enhancement is like JVC's E-Shift. Looks interesting, I'm curious what the lumens are, especially callibrated.

Same here.

I'm also very curious how its native contrast compares to JVC's...

And if it has a CMS and lens zoom memories.

Laredo 09-03-2014 01:52 PM

I just died and went to heaven!
 
I want one right now! Please don't tell me it's going to be over priced!

This looks like what I have been waiting a long time for. My last projector
I will ever need :)

m.

Ballis 09-03-2014 01:54 PM

After the initial disappointment of Sonys announcement has faded, Epson saves the day.
Can hardly wait to hear more.

cischico 09-03-2014 02:20 PM

Looks like it has electronic zoom judging by that pic, very nice, can't wait to see the specs.

If this Epson reaches close to the JVC in contrast and the Epson has better ANSI contrast; JVC needs to watch out this year.

tigerfan33 09-03-2014 02:32 PM

Same here. Could Epson get 1200 calibrated or disappointed 700?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bley (Post 27110721)
So I'm guessing 4k Enhancement is like JVC's E-Shift. Looks interesting, I'm curious what the lumens are, especially callibrated.


Tom Bley 09-03-2014 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerfan33 (Post 27112057)
Same here. Could Epson get 1200 calibrated or disappointed 700?

Is this all laser or led/laser combo? Haven't been following until now. Led based are a little dim for my tastes or at least on paper. I want to use an AT screen this time around.

wse 09-03-2014 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy def (Post 27109793)

YES YES it's about time :D :kiss:

Hopefully under $10,000 ?

mark haflich 09-03-2014 02:57 PM

As Ron Jones posted, Art at projector reviews hopes to post a full review posted on next Thursday of what I assume is a pre production sample.

He is under an air tight NDA until next Thursday morning when the Cedia Expo starts.

Thr rumors from overseas have been three 2K LCOS like panels, e-shift like 4K, and a blue laser providing the light for the chip modulating the blue and igniting, for lack of a better word, a spinning yellow phosphor wheel from which red and green are filtered out to provide the light for the chip modulating the red and the chip modulating the green. Traditionally, laser lit phosphor wheels and LCOS chips for which the sony is an example, do not have world class contrast. But the Sony machine puts out 4000 lumens. Who knows the contrast magic in Epson's LCOS chips if it has a lower lumens engine? I know nothing. We will know in a week but even then production rather than a assumed pre production prototype may yield even more surprises. Just like what JVC shows, pre production samples that are still undergoing refinement.

mark haflich 09-03-2014 03:19 PM

Epson is showing projectors at IFA Berlin which starts officially on what is Friday in Berlin. Hopefully we will find out a lot more in about a day and one half.

noah katz 09-03-2014 05:26 PM

"Absolute Black contrast ratio", hmm

SED <--- Rules 09-03-2014 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 27116841)
"Absolute Black contrast ratio", hmm

Absolute black to me means infinite contrast ratio. I doubt that is the case. Epson hasn't even come close to JVCs contrast ratios. Time will tell.

lovingdvd 09-03-2014 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules (Post 27117145)
Absolute black to me means infinite contrast ratio. I doubt that is the case. Epson hasn't even come close to JVCs contrast ratios. Time will tell.

If the laser can be completely turned off on fade to black, then indeed it could offer infinite contrast ratio. I don't know enough by these lasers to know if that is doable, but I'd imagine so.

Deja Vu 09-04-2014 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovingdvd (Post 27121818)
If the laser can be completely turned off on fade to black, then indeed it could offer infinite contrast ratio. I don't know enough by these lasers to know if that is doable, but I'd imagine so.

Yes, I believe the laser can be turned off for the absolute black scenes. The pertinent question is simply this -- for low APL scenes do we get a very dark black (grey), which retains detail, especially shadow detail, or do we get a light or even a medium grey. There's a big difference! The fact that the total fade scenes may be totally black doesn't tell us much about the "real world" on/off contrast ratio. Many of the existing LED and laser/hybrid projectors can do a total fade to black but their useful on/off C.R. is mediocre.

mark haflich 09-04-2014 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deja Vu (Post 27126458)
Yes, I believe the laser can be turned off for the absolute black scenes. The pertinent question is simply this -- for low APL scenes do we get a very dark black (grey), which retains detail, especially shadow detail, or do we get a light or even a medium grey. There's a big difference! The fact that the total fade scenes may be totally black doesn't tell us much about the "real world" on/off contrast ratio. Many of the existing LED and laser/hybrid projectors can do a total fade to black but their useful on/off C.R. is mediocre.

it will be interesting to learn exactly what the laser/phosphor hybrid will be. It clearly will not be an RGB laser.

Second the real life contrast will probably be . . . . we just don't know but with LCOS and a hybrid you would expect decent but not great. JVC won't be challenged in low APL performance. But it will be in other areas.

NOW. I NEED HELP (but not as badly as Seegs need help LOL)


IS THERE AN EPSON PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY AT IFA?

IF SO, WHAT TIME ECDST WILL IT BE?

AND WHAT IS A GOOD LINK FOR IT IN ENGLISH?

I have searched and while I found an honest man and the holy grail, I struck out on the conference info.


Thank you in advance.

Daekwan 09-04-2014 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wse (Post 27112705)
Hopefully under $10,000 ?

$10K?? Looks like I'm keeping my 5030 lol

Seegs108 09-04-2014 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark haflich (Post 27127874)
NOW. I NEED HELP (but not as badly as Seegs need help LOL)

Maybe you could enlighten me with what I need help with, Mark? Because I don't have the faintest idea.

rprice54 09-04-2014 06:30 PM

Following. Had to part with my 5030. Guessing the new lazer PJ is out of my price range. Hoping for an update to the 5030, or I may just end up with another one.

Ron Jones 09-05-2014 06:26 AM

Some new info now available on the Projector Reviews web site (link below) that you may have not have already seen is::
Some new info you may have not already seen is listed below::
http://www.projectorreviews.com/pr_b...h-new-ls10000/

- there will be a lower priced Home version - Model LS9600e ($6.5K) retail/on-line version plus the Pro version LS1000 sold only thru local dealers/installers. Price for the LS10000 is "under $8K" but not yet set in concrete, but should be announced at CEDIA. This is similar to how Epson sells the Home Cinema 5030 vs. the Pro Cinema 6030 where they are basically the same projector but with some extras provided (Mount, Extra Lamp, longer warranty, and different case color) with the Pro version, which Epson requires to be sold thru local dealers than can provide installation services.

- Lens memory now included.

- Supports DCI color space in additional to Rec. 709

- 1300 calibrated lumens

- Production Units start shipping in late Oct. (perhaps when they start shipping from Japan)

- Full review to be published next week at start or CEDIA and later this month a shootout with a Sony VW1100

- there will be a lower priced Home version - Model LS9600e ($6.5K) retail/on-line version plus the Pro version LS1000 sold only thru local dealers/installers. Price for the LS10000 is "under $8K" but not yet set in concrete, but should be announced at CEDIA. This is similar to how Epson sells the Home Cinema 5030 vs. the Pro Cinema 6030 where they are basically the same projector but with some extras provided (Mount, Extra Lamp, longer warranty, and different case color) with the Pro version, which Epson requires to be sold thru local dealers than can provide installation services.

- Lens memory now included.

- Supports DCI color space in additional to Rec. 709

- 1300 calibrated lumens

- Production Units start shipping in late Oct. (perhaps when they start shipping from Japan)

- Full review to be published on Projector Reviews web site next Wednesday (9/10) at start or CEDIA and later this month a shootout with a Sony VW1100

Ericglo 09-05-2014 08:09 AM

Thanks for the info, Ron. At that price, I am almost certainly out. Cedia should enlightening.

lovingdvd 09-05-2014 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Jones (Post 27156378)
...
Price for the LS10000 is "under $8K" but not yet set in concrete, but should be announced at CEDIA. This is similar to how Epson sells the Home Cinema 5030 vs. the Pro Cinema 6030 where they are basically the same projector but with some extras provided (Mount, Extra Lamp, longer warranty, and different case color) with the Pro version, which Epson requires to be sold thru local dealers than can provide installation services.

- there will be a lower priced Home version - Model LS9600e ($6.5K) retail/on-line version plus the Pro version LS1000 sold only thru local dealers/installers. Price for the LS10000 is "under $8K" but not yet set in concrete, but should be announced at CEDIA. This is similar to how Epson sells the Home Cinema 5030 vs. the Pro Cinema 6030 where they are basically the same projector but with some extras provided (Mount, Extra Lamp, longer warranty, and different case color) with the Pro version, which Epson requires to be sold thru local dealers than can provide installation services...

Thanks Ron! With the news that the Sony VW300 does not have a dynamic iris, for me that leaves only the Epson as a possible replacement for my VW95.

When I first read the above I thought to myself that I don't need the higher end version if the main differences would be along those lines. However if I'm reading Art's page, the cheaper (home) version does not do pseudo-4K - so that's a pretty significant difference. Am I reading that correctly?

Questions I hope Art will address in his review:

- native ON/OFF contrast ratio?

- ANSI CR?

- does it fulfill the long-promised laser/LED lighting promise of "instant on"?

- does it use a dynamic iris? if not, does the laser itself act as a digital iris by smartly dimming?

- how do black levels compare to latest generation JVC?

- is the light completely off in fade to black?

- does it offer low latency for gaming? game mode?

- 3D evaluation and performance, cross-talk etc?

- because there is no lamp to cool, does that mean it is whisper quiet with little or no fan at all? Judging from the picture it looks like it has quite a bit of ventilation holes - why for a laser pj that I would expect to run very cool?

- advantages/disadvantages vs latest gen JVC line?

- throw range, offset etc?

- motion handling?

Thanks!

WynsWrld98 09-05-2014 09:23 AM

Question for CEDIA: Is 5030/6030 line being continued? or is it being replaced with something else in this price range? Important for those of us who can't afford the new laser models at $6500-8000.

guido310 09-05-2014 11:53 PM

I would like to know if LS10000 is bright enough to fill a 170" 16:9 screen (366 cm width), how may FL expected on that size when calibrated

Thanks

Debonaire 09-06-2014 12:05 AM

Lovingdvd,

An LED "laser" light source is extremely difficult to cool. One problem is before the driver is at a stable temperature the LEDs will actually be brighter. Look at how big the Sim M150 is at over 60 pounds. Their solution is a liquid cooled ventilation system. The LED laser itself is cool, the driver is most absolutely extremely hot.


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