Are we nearing 'The End'? (probably not, but...) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Are we nearing 'The End'? (probably not, but...)

Okay, let's have a quick re-cap.


With the new Epson we have a laser projector which goes blacker than their lamp-based projectors. The blacks on the best JVCs are already so black you can barely measure than, so presumably we'd be talking about Spinal Tap blacks with a laser JVC, with the others catching up.


The Epsons are not native 4K, but we know that's coming, as the Sonys have native 4K. Epson, JVC and others will follow sooner rather than later.


Unless you have an absolutely huge screen, or require LCD TV levels of brightness, the Epson is more than bright enough to reach cinema levels of 14fl, and more.


We really don't need more than 4K. I mean I'm not convinced we even need 4K, but that's another discussion.


You can't get blacker.


You don't need brighter.


And the Epson's will apparently handle DCI.


So I'm guessing, within maybe 2 years, we'll have several manufacturers each selling 4K projectors which will go as black as you want and as bright as you want with the largest colourspace possible. The resolution will be higher than you can see at any reasonable viewing distance, the lamp won't dim, and will last (effectively) forever.


For under $5k.


Everyone happy with that? Close the forums, thank you and good night, it's been nice chatting.





Steve W
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post #2 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 05:42 AM
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If JVC has a laser projector that's brighter with better blacks. What else can we ask for from them. But of course, there will still be numerous complaints. I'm sure Epson will have a native 4k projector for around the same price as their 4k enhancement projector. Sony of course will be better and will try to compete price wise with Epson and JVC. Hopefully all will have 4k lasers that are brighter than their lamp base projectors. Next year should be fun with all the 4k models.
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post #3 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 07:30 AM
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The reason I buy new equipment is the make the movie watching experience better. What I've now come to realize is that no matter how much money I throw at equipment there are some movies I can not sit through. Interestingly there are some movies I could watch on the equipment I owned 10 years ago and still enjoy those movies. When it comes to AV quality -- for some people the equipment we had ten years ago is good enough and for others (like many on this forum) no matter what we have it will never be good enough and therefore we'll never reach the end.
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post #4 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post
Okay, let's have a quick re-cap.


With the new Epson we have a laser projector which goes blacker than their lamp-based projectors. The blacks on the best JVCs are already so black you can barely measure than, so presumably we'd be talking about Spinal Tap blacks with a laser JVC, with the others catching up.


The Epsons are not native 4K, but we know that's coming, as the Sonys have native 4K. Epson, JVC and others will follow sooner rather than later.


Unless you have an absolutely huge screen, or require LCD TV levels of brightness, the Epson is more than bright enough to reach cinema levels of 14fl, and more.


We really don't need more than 4K. I mean I'm not convinced we even need 4K, but that's another discussion.


You can't get blacker.


You don't need brighter.


And the Epson's will apparently handle DCI.


You forgot one piece of the puzzle....TI will release DC5 with 14° tilt, which will be 4K, faster, with better CR than actual, sharper than the Lcos counterpart (SONY EPSON JVC)....feed it with a LED or laser light source and the battle of DLP VS. LCD and reflective will start again
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post #5 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Cheers, chaps.


I'm being a bit tongue in cheek - really just trying to prompt discussion.


Of course you'll get better lenses on the more expensive models, for one.


But I think we're actually relatively close to projectors which:


- Are 4K resolution
- Have blacks which are as black as you really need
- Are brighter than necessary
- Have full DCI colour
- Powered by lasers with minimal dimming and a long life (the life of the projector)
- Cost under $5k


For me, at that point, I genuinely think I might stop reading the forums. I find that I constantly give myself a feeling that my projector isn't as good as it could be (which is of course true), and I've occasionally found myself not watching a film, as I want to wait to get my new projector and see it 'properly'.


I'm sure we can still get better, but all things considered I think the above is the point when I say enough is enough - I have good enough, and more than good enough. I'll just be looking for problems for the sake of it.


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post #6 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post
- Have blacks which are as black as you really need
- Are brighter than necessary
How do you define these? Even JVCs this year, with their incredible contrast thanks to the DI have room for improvement, quite a bit in fact. And bright enough? How bright is bright enough? What screen size is big enough?

HDR will require quite a few more lumens if we're to maintain the sort of contrast we enjoy today.

Quote:
- Have full DCI colour
That's only good enough if Rec 2020 doesn't take over.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #7 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post
Cheers, chaps.


I'm being a bit tongue in cheek - really just trying to prompt discussion.


Of course you'll get better lenses on the more expensive models, for one.


But I think we're actually relatively close to projectors which:


- Are 4K resolution
- Have blacks which are as black as you really need
- Are brighter than necessary
- Have full DCI colour
- Powered by lasers with minimal dimming and a long life (the life of the projector)
- Cost under $5k


For me, at that point, I genuinely think I might stop reading the forums. I find that I constantly give myself a feeling that my projector isn't as good as it could be (which is of course true), and I've occasionally found myself not watching a film, as I want to wait to get my new projector and see it 'properly'.


I'm sure we can still get better, but all things considered I think the above is the point when I say enough is enough - I have good enough, and more than good enough. I'll just be looking for problems for the sake of it.


Steve W
I tend to agree with all your points except the brightness one. If you don't believe that significantly higher brighter would be better, you should have seen the Digital Projection demos of their LED and laser pjs at CEDIA; some of these were indeed producing lcd TV-like brightness, and it was magnificent. Of course these pjs have an MSRP for $120K and $150K (or something like that), so don't meet your price criterion. But doubling the brightness produced by the Epson, for example, would be a major step forward (provided of course that the noise level is not unacceptable).
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post #8 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 01:16 PM
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I tend to agree with all your points except the brightness one. If you don't believe that significantly higher brighter would be better, you should have seen the Digital Projection demos of their LED and laser pjs at CEDIA; some of these were indeed producing lcd TV-like brightness, and it was magnificent. Of course these pjs have an MSRP for $120K and $150K (or something like that), so don't meet your price criterion. But doubling the brightness produced by the Epson, for example, would be a major step forward (provided of course that the noise level is not unacceptable).
Agreed - we need 2000 - 2500 calibrated lumens. With laser. And 4K with a top tier lens etc. It won't be $5K. Maybe $25K. I'm still good with that if it lasts 30,000 hours. Might be the last projector I ever buy. Probably outlast me, and / or my eyesight !
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post #9 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I tend to agree with all your points except the brightness one. If you don't believe that significantly higher brighter would be better, you should have seen the Digital Projection demos of their LED and laser pjs at CEDIA; some of these were indeed producing lcd TV-like brightness, and it was magnificent. Of course these pjs have an MSRP for $120K and $150K (or something like that), so don't meet your price criterion. But doubling the brightness produced by the Epson, for example, would be a major step forward (provided of course that the noise level is not unacceptable).
The current standard I've seen as insisted on by directors is for 14fl.


The impression I get is that this is the brightness they expect and compose for, give or take.


I do not subscribe to the idea that brighter is better, though I appreciate that some might disagree.


The aim, FOR ME, is to replicate the best standards of 'real' cinema, and surpass it if possible and desirable.


In a proper light-controlled room, I'm not sure extreme brightness will give you an image a director expected or (by presumption) intended.


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post #10 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed - we need 2000 - 2500 calibrated lumens.
Oh no. No no no no no!


'Need'?


No.


'Want'?


Maybe.


Okay, if you have a 200" screen or something wild like that, but with a standard home cinema screen (say 90"-150") and a non-dimming light source, you don't 'need' 2500 lumens.


Actually, I'll reign that in. If you want a projector for watching American Football with the lights on, I concede the point. But for watching a film at the brightness the director expected, in a light-controlled room, with a fairly average-to-large screen, that's way OTT.


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post #11 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 01:54 PM
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I "want" 5000 lumens and 1,000,000,000:1 real on/off.
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post #12 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 02:08 PM
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.....but what if we do get all this, and possibly more, we'll still find fault somehow - guaranteed.....
Infinite contrast, high brightness, incredible resolution....but someone somewhere will say 'but the motion sucks' or 'It's too noisy' or 'its too perfect!'
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post #13 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 02:20 PM
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I'm confused. The lasers aren't what gives these projectors high native contrast and the "spinal tap" type of black is only when you use the laser like a dynamic iris and even still if the laser turns completely off to give us that type of black what does "black" look like when there are a few white pixels on screen. My guess is the difference is relatively large. This is what I'm interested in hearing when someone who will give us a truthful candid review get's a hold of this Epson. There's still a long road ahead of us if we want the type of native contrast a custom gamma CRT can do. Regarding brightness, the Epson looks to be 1100-1300 D65 lumens depending on which review you read. For large screens that not going to cut it. I'd much prefer 1500+ D65 lumens. ANSI contrast on all LCOS machines (except the 1000ES) is still far behind a decent DLP projector. A laser can give us better ANSI contrast performance because it scatters less light but we still need decent optics for high ANSI. Lasers also need to last more than 10-20K hours if it's going to be "the end". If that's all we can get out of them they need to be easily replaceable and somewhat affordable relative to the original cost of the machine.

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post #14 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 02:44 PM
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The Dig Proj 4K (3-chip dlp) laser projector (the one that's only $120K)--that is rated at 10,000 lumens, though I don't know if it was in highest brightness mode--was shown in the Stewart area at CEDIA projecting onto a 123" diag ST100 (1.0 gain) screen. This was certainly producing more than 100 ftL off the screen, quite a bit more than 14. Agreed, it was not in a batcave, but still.

I think you need to see something like this just to see how seductive it is. We just need the price go get down to your $5K benchmark!
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post #15 of 78 Old 09-16-2014, 05:20 PM
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We also need it with 3d without the glasses, 32k resolution, infinite color gamut, smellyvision, and with a device to throw wind and water at you. Then I will be satisfied until the home holodecks come out.
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post #16 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post
Okay, let's have a quick re-cap.


With the new Epson we have a laser projector which goes blacker than their lamp-based projectors. The blacks on the best JVCs are already so black you can barely measure than, so presumably we'd be talking about Spinal Tap blacks with a laser JVC, with the others catching up.


The Epsons are not native 4K, but we know that's coming, as the Sonys have native 4K. Epson, JVC and others will follow sooner rather than later.


Unless you have an absolutely huge screen, or require LCD TV levels of brightness, the Epson is more than bright enough to reach cinema levels of 14fl, and more.


We really don't need more than 4K. I mean I'm not convinced we even need 4K, but that's another discussion.


You can't get blacker.


You don't need brighter.


And the Epson's will apparently handle DCI.


So I'm guessing, within maybe 2 years, we'll have several manufacturers each selling 4K projectors which will go as black as you want and as bright as you want with the largest colourspace possible. The resolution will be higher than you can see at any reasonable viewing distance, the lamp won't dim, and will last (effectively) forever.


For under $5k.


Everyone happy with that? Close the forums, thank you and good night, it's been nice chatting.





Steve W
Then you work on the audio end.
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post #17 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Then you work on the audio end.
DON'T MAKE ME COME OVER THERE!





I know we all approach AV from different perspectives. But for me I need to be 'dissatisfied in normal viewing'.


You know, my old SD projector was pretty good. But sometimes the picture was simply too soft and too digital looking.


Sometimes my dlp projector looks fine (in fact sometimes it looks jaw-dropping). But sometimes there's a really dark scene and it's not as dark as I'd like.


I'll upgrade until I stop having those moments which take me out of the film. I won't upgrade just to try to match an A/B comparison, or a hyper-high-end model I've seen, I'll only upgrade to stop those instances spoiling my viewing.


But that's just me, and I don't criticise anyone else for coming at it differently.


Steve W
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post #18 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
The Dig Proj 4K (3-chip dlp) laser projector (the one that's only $120K)--that is rated at 10,000 lumens, though I don't know if it was in highest brightness mode--was shown in the Stewart area at CEDIA projecting onto a 123" diag ST100 (1.0 gain) screen. This was certainly producing more than 100 ftL off the screen, quite a bit more than 14. Agreed, it was not in a batcave, but still.

I think you need to see something like this just to see how seductive it is. We just need the price go get down to your $5K benchmark!

I need to be able to maintain 20 foot lamberts on whatever screen size I use. 14 FL is dim. 20 FL makes daytime scenes actually look like daytime !
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post #19 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 10:29 AM
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I need to be able to maintain 20 foot lamberts on whatever screen size I use. 14 FL is dim. 20 FL makes daytime scenes actually look like daytime !
18ftL is perfect for me but I would love to have a stable 20ftL with a good DI. Then, I would be very happy.
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post #20 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 10:36 AM
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18ftL is perfect for me but I would love to have a stable 20ftL with a good DI. Then, I would be very happy.

There you go! I love the picture I'm getting from the VW600. Personally, I'm satisfied with the blacks, lumens, picture etc. Replace the lamp with something equally bright ( laser, LED, I don't necessarily care which ) so I can have 18 - 20 foot lamberts on a 135" diagonal screen for 20,000 + hours, and my credit card will float right out of my wallet automatically ..............

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post #21 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 12:50 PM
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I need to be able to maintain 20 foot lamberts on whatever screen size I use. 14 FL is dim. 20 FL makes daytime scenes actually look like daytime !
Craig, do you not find any issues with a bright image and source quality variation?

My JVC RS57/Stewart ST-130 combo doesn't go nearly as bright as yours (at least at larger sizes) and yet I'm not even choosing to leave my image at it's brightest; I find pour source quality, image noise, film grain etc starts to become a bit too distracting in some material.

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post #22 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 01:19 PM
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I only watch Blu Rays and HDTV. Which other sources ? I can't watch DVD's or non HD TV - hurts my eyes. I don't stream - at least not so far. Older movies, well, what ya going to do. What you have on Blu Ray now regarding older films is probably all we will ever have - 4K Blu Ray or not. Most are pretty good.


Overall, I'm pleased.

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post #23 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post
DON'T MAKE ME COME OVER THERE!





I know we all approach AV from different perspectives. But for me I need to be 'dissatisfied in normal viewing'.


You know, my old SD projector was pretty good. But sometimes the picture was simply too soft and too digital looking.


Sometimes my dlp projector looks fine (in fact sometimes it looks jaw-dropping). But sometimes there's a really dark scene and it's not as dark as I'd like.


I'll upgrade until I stop having those moments which take me out of the film. I won't upgrade just to try to match an A/B comparison, or a hyper-high-end model I've seen, I'll only upgrade to stop those instances spoiling my viewing.


But that's just me, and I don't criticise anyone else for coming at it differently.


Steve W
Come on over. I will show you my new baffle wall setup with new front LCR's.

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post #24 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 03:56 PM
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Craig, do you not find any issues with a bright image and source quality variation?

My JVC RS57/Stewart ST-130 combo doesn't go nearly as bright as yours (at least at larger sizes) and yet I'm not even choosing to leave my image at it's brightest; I find pour source quality, image noise, film grain etc starts to become a bit too distracting in some material.
Speaking for myself, I do not tolerate "bright images" well. One theory I've heard is people with lighter color eyes have greater sensitivity to brightness and my eyes are blue, so who knows. I find anything past 12-13 ftL on my 108" wide ST100 2:35 screen to be too bright sitting 10.5 feet back, but my room is also black carpeted with Rosco Velour paint on all four walls and ceiling with Protostar near edges of screen.

However, My living room 51" plasma is only at 32 ftL and I find that too bright at night/dark room sometimes where as a lot of people prefer 40s ftL on a display like that in dark.

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post #25 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 04:05 PM
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Okay, let's have a quick re-cap.


With the new Epson we have a laser projector which goes blacker than their lamp-based projectors. The blacks on the best JVCs are already so black you can barely measure than, so presumably we'd be talking about Spinal Tap blacks with a laser JVC, with the others catching up.


The Epsons are not native 4K, but we know that's coming, as the Sonys have native 4K. Epson, JVC and others will follow sooner rather than later.


Unless you have an absolutely huge screen, or require LCD TV levels of brightness, the Epson is more than bright enough to reach cinema levels of 14fl, and more.


We really don't need more than 4K. I mean I'm not convinced we even need 4K, but that's another discussion.


You can't get blacker.


You don't need brighter.


And the Epson's will apparently handle DCI.


So I'm guessing, within maybe 2 years, we'll have several manufacturers each selling 4K projectors which will go as black as you want and as bright as you want with the largest colourspace possible. The resolution will be higher than you can see at any reasonable viewing distance, the lamp won't dim, and will last (effectively) forever.


For under $5k.


Everyone happy with that? Close the forums, thank you and good night, it's been nice chatting.





Steve W
I think there'll always be something over the horizon... I mean holodeck is still a ways away. But even with 2D imagery, there might be other ways to enhance the image that we might not be aware of today.
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post #26 of 78 Old 09-17-2014, 08:38 PM
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I think there is another decade or so to go before we get the best source material. The displays will probably already be there before then. The problem is that the even though the jumps may seem large in number, they are a smaller jump from SD to HD. Most of the general population is probably happy with the HD displays they already own.

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post #27 of 78 Old 09-18-2014, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I need to be able to maintain 20 foot lamberts on whatever screen size I use. 14 FL is dim. 20 FL makes daytime scenes actually look like daytime !
On a 120" screen (just over 45'sq) you can get 20fl with under 1000 lumens (unless my maths is out).


If you watch a film at over 20fl you're not seeing it at a level anything like what a director thought you'd be seeing it.

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post #28 of 78 Old 09-18-2014, 03:02 PM
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On a 120" screen (just over 45'sq) you can get 20fl with under 1000 lumens (unless my maths is out).


If you watch a film at over 20fl you're not seeing it at a level anything like what a director thought you'd be seeing it.

Steve W

If you don't watch movies shot on film being projected on a film projector, you aren't necessarily watching what the director intended. Personally, I watch movies in my own theater exactly the way I want to. That's why I spent a fortune to build my own theater. If the director wants to build me a theater, and sign it over to me, I'll watch it his way. Otherwise, I prefer " preference " to supposed " reference ". The director probably intended me to watch his movie on a 20' wide screen. He'll need to buy me a bigger house too.


18 - 20 or so foot lamberts just looks better. And, in my experience, you had better have a lot of horsepower in reserve - lamps start dimming rather quickly. Todays 18 FL's is tomorrows 12 FL's - and after that, dullsville.
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post #29 of 78 Old 09-18-2014, 04:32 PM
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[QUOTE=DavidHir;27500778]Speaking for myself, I do not tolerate "bright images" well. /[QUOTE]

Nothing at all with your post or with you, but I do not posters who think they are bright, regardless of the actual reality, well. Fortunately I am not self allergic.

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post #30 of 78 Old 09-19-2014, 02:14 AM - Thread Starter
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If you don't watch movies shot on film being projected on a film projector, you aren't necessarily watching what the director intended. Personally, I watch movies in my own theater exactly the way I want to. That's why I spent a fortune to build my own theater. If the director wants to build me a theater, and sign it over to me, I'll watch it his way. Otherwise, I prefer " preference " to supposed " reference ". The director probably intended me to watch his movie on a 20' wide screen. He'll need to buy me a bigger house too.


18 - 20 or so foot lamberts just looks better. And, in my experience, you had better have a lot of horsepower in reserve - lamps start dimming rather quickly. Todays 18 FL's is tomorrows 12 FL's - and after that, dullsville.
I think we have similar arguments with having properly calibrated kit. It's a question of seeing a film the way a director intended, which in part will be influenced by what a director expected.


I've seen instructions to projectionists insisting on 14fl - not a minimum of 14fl, but 14fl as a standard, and cinema projectors are capable of more.


Whilst it's possible a director might be happy with it being shown brighter, we have no guarantee. That's my personal point of view.


I note your comments about dimming, and I think I covered that. The lasers apparently dim evenly in a linear fashion. Let's look at the stats.


Let's take a relatively large screen - say 126". Not the biggest, but certainly not the smallest. 126" diagonal is about 48sq feet.


The new Epsons will do about 1,100 lumens, calibrated. Laser life is half brightness at 10,000 hours (brightest setting). So that's 550 lumens after 10,000 hours.


If you want 14fl on a 126" screen you need about 670 lumens. So with the Epson you've loads of room for that. Even after 10,00 hours you'll be getting c.11.5fl, which you'd have dropped to from 14fl very quickly with a lamp-based projector.


If you require 18fl you need 864 lumens, and if the lasers dim in linear fashion from 1,100 lumens you'll still be getting that for about 5,000 hours.


And that's a first generation model with no competition, so I'm sure that'll improve.


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