Is buying a Sony 600es a bad idea? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 138 Old 10-04-2014, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Is buying a Sony 600es a bad idea?

Hey Guys, (and gals if there are any here ) I am new to this forum so be gentle. My question is I was in the market to buy a front projector. I was looking at the Epson 6030 and the Jvc x500 but saw the Sony 600es and liked the picture and decided I might pony up the extra cash to get it. I was all set to buy a demo one with only a few hours on it when a friend of mine said I shouldn't do it. He said it is not worth the jump and that with the new 4k players coming out next year, that I might want to wait. Something about compatibility issue. I called and talked to a sony rep about this and he said that I shouldn't worry that it should be compatible and if the format is different, it could be upgraded. Of course it was a rep from the 800 number so he may just be a sales guy without any true knowledge of this. So my question is should I just forget the 600es and keep looking or is it worth the jump. Again the one I was going to get was a slightly used demo at a great price, comparative to the original MSRP. The projector I buy won't be in a bat cave, and will be for some daytime viewing, but overall will be used mainly at night. I will be pairing this with a dalite 119" screen. Any advise would be appreciated. BTW This forum is great!
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post #2 of 138 Old 10-04-2014, 03:26 PM
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Your friend makes some good points. BDA (Blu-ray Disc Association) announced that the 4K update to Blu-ray would be coming for holiday 2015, and the features/specifications they have mentioned are likely beyond the capabilities of the VW600. Some of the incompatibilities are related to the VW600's limited HDMI implementation and could potentially be upgraded, but the bigger issue IMO, is that 4K Blu-ray should use a wider color gamut than current Blu-ray (DCI/P3, or possible Rec2020), and IMO it's unlikely that that can be a "simple" upgrade.

At this point in the game I would wait on a 4K display until we know what the new 4K formats will require. If you "need" a projector now, I'd consider going with something "cheap" that will work for you for a year or two, if you want to then upgrade to 4K.

On the other hand, if you don't care about being able to fully take advantage of 4K Blu-ray's improvements, by all accounts the VW600 is a great machine that should serve you well for years. And I wouldn't be too worried about not being able to watch 4K Blu-ray on it at all, you just might not get the full benefit.
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post #3 of 138 Old 10-04-2014, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mptech1 View Post
Hey Guys, (and gals if there are any here )
...
I was all set to buy a demo one with only a few hours on it when a friend of mine said I shouldn't do it. He said it is not worth the jump and that with the new 4k players coming out next year, that I might want to wait. Something about compatibility issue.
...
To me it depends on the price. For $8k- $10k I would buy it (assuming he is an authorized Sony dealer you get a full 3 yr warranty). Above $10k and it's not enough of a discount from what you can buy new.

4k Blu-ray may never catch on. Sure it's coming out for Christmas 2015, but that does not mean most titles will ever be available in 4k. Streaming (even at lower bitrate than 4K blu-ray) is likely (IMO) to win the long term battle.

By all accounts, the 600ES puts out a fantastic picture that is pretty hard to beat. So even if 4k totally fails, you have a great up-scaling projector for 1080P.
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Last edited by rak306; 10-04-2014 at 05:22 PM. Reason: added thought
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post #4 of 138 Old 10-05-2014, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Your friend makes some good points. BDA (Blu-ray Disc Association) announced that the 4K update to Blu-ray would be coming for holiday 2015, and the features/specifications they have mentioned are likely beyond the capabilities of the VW600. Some of the incompatibilities are related to the VW600's limited HDMI implementation and could potentially be upgraded, but the bigger issue IMO, is that 4K Blu-ray should use a wider color gamut than current Blu-ray (DCI/P3, or possible Rec2020), and IMO it's unlikely that that can be a "simple" upgrade.

At this point in the game I would wait on a 4K display until we know what the new 4K formats will require. If you "need" a projector now, I'd consider going with something "cheap" that will work for you for a year or two, if you want to then upgrade to 4K.

On the other hand, if you don't care about being able to fully take advantage of 4K Blu-ray's improvements, by all accounts the VW600 is a great machine that should serve you well for years. And I wouldn't be too worried about not being able to watch 4K Blu-ray on it at all, you just might not get the full benefit.

.Yeah I figured the simple upgrade was probably bad advice from the sony guy. Although I keep thinking if I try and wait for all the dust to settle on which format the 4k bd will be requiring, I might be waiting 3-4 years. I could buy the 600es and enjoy it for 3-4 years.




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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
To me it depends on the price. For $8k- $10k I would buy it (assuming he is an authorized Sony dealer you get a full 3 yr warranty). Above $10k and it's not enough of a discount from what you can buy new.

4k Blu-ray may never catch on. Sure it's coming out for Christmas 2015, but that does not mean most titles will ever be available in 4k. Streaming (even at lower bitrate than 4K blu-ray) is likely (IMO) to win the long term battle.

By all accounts, the 600ES puts out a fantastic picture that is pretty hard to beat. So even if 4k totally fails, you have a great up-scaling projector for 1080P.
Well I am going to find out if I get the full 3 year warranty on it. I think I can get them to go down right below the $8k range so if that is a good price I may jump on it. I think I could get a jvc 500 and save over half that price but I know those jvc are dim compared to the sony. Confusing choice to say the least .


Thanks both of you for helping my out and giving me info on this.

Last edited by mptech1; 10-05-2014 at 09:34 AM. Reason: add another statement
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post #5 of 138 Old 10-05-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mptech1 View Post
.Yeah I figured the simple upgrade was probably bad advice from the sony guy. Although I keep thinking if I try and wait for all the dust to settle on which format the 4k bd will be requiring, I might be waiting 3-4 years. I could buy the 600es and enjoy it for 3-4 years.






Well I am going to find out if I get the full 3 year warranty on it. I think I can get them to go down right below the $8k range so if that is a good price I may jump on it. I think I could get a jvc 500 and save over half that price but I know those jvc are dim compared to the sony. Confusing choice to say the least .


Thanks both of you for helping my out and giving me info on this.
Yep, I think you will have several years, before 4K BD quality will surpass the 600. I would be surprised if you can get it that cheap, even for a demo.

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post #6 of 138 Old 10-05-2014, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Yep, I think you will have several years, before 4K BD quality will surpass the 600.
I am correct that the VW600 only supports Rec709 gamut correct? Only the VW1100 supports DCI? I would expect the first 4K Blu-ray's out of the gate to use whatever wider gamut 4K Blu-ray implements.
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post #7 of 138 Old 10-05-2014, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I am correct that the VW600 only supports Rec709 gamut correct? Only the VW1100 supports DCI? I would expect the first 4K Blu-ray's out of the gate to use whatever wider gamut 4K Blu-ray implements.

I have read the other threads on this forum about the "wider gamut" or more colors that may be used in the 4k blu ray, if I am saying the term correctly. Has anyone even seen a display with the wider gamut? Will anyone even notice a difference if they did see it? Is there a display out there that can display this wider gamut? I ask because sometimes specs don't always translate to a huge real world difference.

Last edited by mptech1; 10-05-2014 at 11:44 PM. Reason: additional thought
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post #8 of 138 Old 10-05-2014, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Yep, I think you will have several years, before 4K BD quality will surpass the 600. I would be surprised if you can get it that cheap, even for a demo.


Yeah, it may be a few years, which is why I'm wondering, is it worth buying an inexpensive projector now, with the hopes of buying a 4k in a few years, is sound thinking. I could spend $3-4k on a cheaper projector now , only to wait 2 or 3 years for 4k projector prices to fall,to say, $7-8k, and then spend that amount in 2 or 3 years. Combined, I would have spent $11-13k for two projectors. Of course I could sell that "inexpensive projector" I bought first, but seeing how far projector values fall, I would be lucky to get a grand for that first projector. Warped way of looking at it but I can't see quality 4k projectors, like the 600es, dropping so far in price that they go for under $5k in a few years. But then again, I'm no expert. I could be wrong.

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post #9 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mptech1 View Post
Yeah, it may be a few years, which is why I'm wondering, is it worth buying an inexpensive projector now, with the hopes of buying a 4k in a few years, is sound thinking. I could spend $3-4k on a cheaper projector now , only to wait 2 or 3 years for 4k projector prices to fall,to say, $7-8k, and then spend that amount in 2 or 3 years. Combined, I would have spent $11-13k for two projectors. Of course I could sell that "inexpensive projector" I bought first, but seeing how far projector values fall, I would be lucky to get a grand for that first projector. Warped way of looking at it but I can't see quality 4k projectors, like the 600es, dropping so far in price that they go for under $5k in a few years. But then again, I'm no expert. I could be wrong.
I follow your logic I am on that boat also. I may be able to get a 600es demo unit at a fair price and going back and forth about it. I really need to change my infocus. Go inexpensive now and buy next year? Might be same total price...
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post #10 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 03:58 AM
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This is the leading edge of the 4k curve, all 4k PJ's will drop in price and add features over the next 2-3 years, just look at history for CE goods.
Do you really need to be early adopter?
IMO lower your budget to $2k for decent 1080p PJ, stick with that for 3 years, then buy your 4k PJ for $5k then.
This your 1st PJ? Heck, buy 1080p used or b-stock, something to get you thru this technology change and see stability in the market.

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post #11 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mptech1 View Post
I have read the other threads on this forum about the "wider gamut" or more colors that may be used in the 4k blu ray, if I am saying the term correctly. Has anyone even seen a display with the wider gamut? Will anyone even notice a difference if they did see it? Is there a display out there that can display this wider gamut? I ask because sometimes specs don't always translate to a huge real world difference.
DCI (Digital Cinema) Projectors operate in P3, one of the rumored wider gamuts, and I know there's been a few times when I've seen something at the theater, only to later come home and be somewhat disappointed that the image is more "subdued", with less vibrant colors.
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post #12 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 06:04 AM
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If it were me, I would go inexpensive now and wait for the 4k dust to settle a bit and then buy a 4k model in a few years. I plan on sticking with my RS45 for another couple years at this point for this very reason.
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post #13 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 07:28 AM
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Saving money always seem to be a good strategy. And pretty sure there will be many fans of that strategy. Especially on forum where people give "wait and see" advice like those is this tread.

But although you save money, for the next 2-3 years you will have a lesser performance projector and that I don't think it's good strategy (at least for me) Life is short and no way I will wait 2-3 years because in 2-3 years if I wait 2-3 years I will get a even better projector but wait another 2-3 years and the projector you can get will be awesome and if you wait anonther 2-3 years... You will be dead...

I want the best (I can afford) now. That's it.
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post #14 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
If it were me, I would go inexpensive now and wait for the 4k dust to settle a bit and then buy a 4k model in a few years. I plan on sticking with my RS45 for another couple years at this point for this very reason.
That advice is about as good as it gets. Get a B stock JVC or a good used projector for the next year or two. You'll be amazed at the image. Right now we're going through a transition to laser and 4K and probably in two years there will be really nice laser/4K projectors in the $5K range, while today's $10K to $20K projectors will be on the used market for a fraction of their original price. IMO you're better to go cheap now (which doesn't mean a second rate image) rather than experience the frustrations and cost of trying to "update" your expensive relatively new equipment
so it can do what you assumed it could do when you purchased it.
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post #15 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 08:05 AM
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If building a new system or upgrading an existing system that includes a larger screen, then it becomes more complicated, if the lesser projectors can't adequately light up the proposed new screen. What do you do then, go with smaller screen so that the cheaper projector can light it up? If you do that, then you will be upgrading projector and screen and spending even more money. These systems are expensive and most of us have to build it one piece at a time. So it is not so cut and dried for everyone. Calibrated light output was one of the main reasons, I went with the 600.

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post #16 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
Saving money always seem to be a good strategy. And pretty sure there will be many fans of that strategy. Especially on forum where people give "wait and see" advice like those is this tread.

But although you save money, for the next 2-3 years you will have a lesser performance projector and that I don't think it's good strategy (at least for me) Life is short and no way I will wait 2-3 years because in 2-3 years if I wait 2-3 years I will get a even better projector but wait another 2-3 years and the projector you can get will be awesome and if you wait anonther 2-3 years... You will be dead...

I want the best (I can afford) now. That's it.
Normally I would agree. There's always something coming and waiting will always get you more, but at the same time it means going without.

But this year is a bit different. I don't know about everyone else, but (and lets just stick to MSRP here, at least for the illustration) I can't drop $15k (VW600 MSRP) on a projector every 2-3 years. A $15k projector investment will have to be a 5+ year investment. We also know that 4K Blu-ray is supposed to be available in about a year, and by 2 years there should be a decent amount of new content released in that format.

So here's how I see it, we're about 1 year from a new format which will exceed the capabilities of any sub $25k projector available today. A $15k projector would have to last me 5 or more years (about 4 years into the new format, 4K Blu-ray). Given that, "needing" a projector, I would rather get a much less expensive 1080p projector to use for a year or two, and save the bulk of the budget for a "complete" 4K solution, rather than paying a large premium today for a "4K" machine that will in about a year, likely prove to be a handicapped solution.

I just think the OP would be wise to go through that thought process with his circumstances. Maybe he can get a great deal and the VW600 is not a significant premium over his 1080p alternatives. Maybe he needs a lot of light output and 4K really isn't a factor. There are good reasons to get a VW600 today, it is a great projector, but I just know that personally, if I bought a 4K projector today, I would be "stuck" with it for quite a while, and I would regret using that budget hastily when I knew before hand that 4K Blu-ray and it's additional requirements are so close.
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post #17 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
This is the leading edge of the 4k curve, all 4k PJ's will drop in price and add features over the next 2-3 years, just look at history for CE goods.
Do you really need to be early adopter?
IMO lower your budget to $2k for decent 1080p PJ, stick with that for 3 years, then buy your 4k PJ for $5k then.
This your 1st PJ? Heck, buy 1080p used or b-stock, something to get you thru this technology change and see stability in the market.






I am not trying to argue, so I hope my reply don't come off as that, but what I am noticing is that when everyone talks about the prices of projectors dropping, the prices don't really drop too far for the so called higher quality projectors. What I mean is that the 1100es came out and was $27k+. Now 2 years later, a 300es came out that was lower in price, just under a 1/3 of the 1100es price, but will anyone say that the 300es is the equal of the 1100es? What I am trying to say is, yes you will be able to get 4k at a lower price, but all you will be getting is the 4k technology, not the other things that supposedly make up a great projector, ie great lens, higher contrast, better build ect... If I am wrong, which is likely, just let me know because I am actually trying to talk my self into spending less money .

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
DCI (Digital Cinema) Projectors operate in P3, one of the rumored wider gamuts, and I know there's been a few times when I've seen something at the theater, only to later come home and be somewhat disappointed that the image is more "subdued", with less vibrant colors.

That is what I was wonder about getting that "wider gamut" technology. Will it really be that much better on my home setup, and will I even notice it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
That advice is about as good as it gets. Get a B stock JVC or a good used projector for the next year or two. You'll be amazed at the image. Right now we're going through a transition to laser and 4K and probably in two years there will be really nice laser/4K projectors in the $5K range, while today's $10K to $20K projectors will be on the used market for a fraction of their original price. IMO you're better to go cheap now (which doesn't mean a second rate image) rather than experience the frustrations and cost of trying to "update" your expensive relatively new equipment
so it can do what you assumed it could do when you purchased it.

I see what you are saying. thanks for the advice. My question to you is do you think there will another jump in technology in a say 5-6 years? To say a hypothetical 8k projector?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Normally I would agree. There's always something coming and waiting will always get you more, but at the same time it means going without.

But this year is a bit different. I don't know about everyone else, but (and lets just stick to MSRP here, at least for the illustration) I can't drop $15k (VW600 MSRP) on a projector every 2-3 years. A $15k projector investment will have to be a 5+ year investment. We also know that 4K Blu-ray is supposed to be available in about a year, and by 2 years there should be a decent amount of new content released in that format.

So here's how I see it, we're about 1 year from a new format which will exceed the capabilities of any sub $25k projector available today. A $15k projector would have to last me 5 or more years (about 4 years into the new format, 4K Blu-ray). Given that, "needing" a projector, I would rather get a much less expensive 1080p projector to use for a year or two, and save the bulk of the budget for a "complete" 4K solution, rather than paying a large premium today for a "4K" machine that will in about a year, likely prove to be a handicapped solution.

I just think the OP would be wise to go through that thought process with his circumstances. Maybe he can get a great deal and the VW600 is not a significant premium over his 1080p alternatives. Maybe he needs a lot of light output and 4K really isn't a factor. There are good reasons to get a VW600 today, it is a great projector, but I just know that personally, if I bought a 4K projector today, I would be "stuck" with it for quite a while, and I would regret using that budget hastily when I knew before hand that 4K Blu-ray and it's additional requirements are so close.

thanks stanger89 for being helpful. all of you posting in this thread really does help with the decision making. Stranger69, I know I wont get the 600es at a great low price, but if it was possible to get it for say $8k right now, would the decision to get it be different? I'm just seeing if those who say to wait is because of price or because of technology, or both. Again thanks.
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post #18 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 11:47 AM
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I was also in the same boat. Couldn't decide between the 55 or the 600es. Not sure which way to go. I can see reasons for both, but I don't have the advantage of getting it at a lower cost, so I may just go with the 55. I am going to hate having to sacrifice the extra brightness that the 600es would give me.

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post #19 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 12:28 PM
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[QUOTE=RickAVManiac;27989050]Saving money always seem to be a good strategy. And pretty sure there will be many fans of that strategy. Especially on forum where people give "wait and see" advice like those is this tread.

But although you save money, for the next 2-3 years you will have a lesser performance projector and that I don't think it's good strategy (at least for me) Life is short and no way I will wait 2-3 years because in 2-3 years if I wait 2-3 years I will get a even better projector but wait another 2-3 years and the projector you can get will be awesome and if you wait anonther 2-3 years... You will be dead...

I want the best (I can afford) now. That's it. [/QUOTE]


I agree. My Sim Lumis looks better in some ways than my VW600. It was expensive, but I've been enjoying it for 5 1/2 years! The other question is when will 4K Blu Ray standards really be finalized? There is talk about an initial standard, and then a better revised standard a couple of years down the road. I'll continue to watch my 400+ Blu Ray collection for the next 5 years on my VW600 and Lumis, as I watch the dust settle ( if it ever does ).

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post #20 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mptech1 View Post

That is what I was wonder about getting that "wider gamut" technology. Will it really be that much better on my home setup, and will I even notice it.
If you can't see the difference in your home setup, then really what would the point in purchasing be? You need more than just an increase in resolution IMHO. My 7 year old Pioneer plasma produces a better picture than any of the 4K Sony TV panels I've seen with Blu-ray and I would take a 1080p Samsung OLED panel over any 4K TV panel I've seen today if I was buying a panel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mptech1 View Post
I see what you are saying. thanks for the advice. My question to you is do you think there will another jump in technology in a say 5-6 years? To say a hypothetical 8k projector?
Sure there will. Otherwise what will CE manufactures have to sell?

I think you have to ask yourself what about the Sony 600es makes you want to buy it. Do you need 4K resolution? Is your screen size large enough, do you sit close enough that 4K is important? Is the VPL-VW600es brightness too much, not enough, or just right for your situation?

I use a 120" wide screen and my first row is 12 feet back. I had a VPL-VW1000es here at home to demo and the extra resolution was not a big plus for me, that is, I could not justify the cost.

I think what people are trying to tell you is that in approximately 12 months time there is the possibility of a true 4K source (4K Blu-ray). If that's the case, your demo 600es at $8K today will be a used projector that does not take full advantage of a new 4K Blu-ray spec and will be worth less than half that $8K assuming future 4K Blu-ray specs go where the discussions are pointing. You'll be able to buy an upgraded 4K projector that takes full advantage of the new Blu-ray spec (or at the very least full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 chips) for the same $8K or maybe less.

Broadcast TV in the US is not likely to start 4K broadcasts any time soon. 4K streaming has gotten so-so reviews. That leaves 4K disc as the best possible source and it's not here yet. So, what you get with the VPL-VW600es is a very nice up scaling 4k projector that may or may not be fully compatible with what the industry says they will bring to market next year.

Full disclosure: For me, 4K is still in the early adopter phase and as such carries a heavy tax. I've paid that tax many times in the past only to be disappointed a few months down the road too many times. Home theater projector technology is quite mature at this point in time. You can get a lot of projector for your dollars today; even more if you shop used. I'm waiting for a true 4K source and the expected extra benefits before I jump in.

It's true you can wait for the next best thing all your life. But then there is something to be said for not shooting yourself in the foot while your standing in line.
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post #21 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 01:04 PM
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I am not trying to argue, so I hope my reply don't come off as that, but what I am noticing is that when everyone talks about the prices of projectors dropping, the prices don't really drop too far for the so called higher quality projectors. What I mean is that the 1100es came out and was $27k+. Now 2 years later, a 300es came out that was lower in price, just under a 1/3 of the 1100es price, but will anyone say that the 300es is the equal of the 1100es? What I am trying to say is, yes you will be able to get 4k at a lower price, but all you will be getting is the 4k technology, not the other things that supposedly make up a great projector, ie great lens, higher contrast, better build ect... If I am wrong, which is likely, just let me know because I am actually trying to talk my self into spending less money .
Me personally, I'm not talking about prices dropping, I'm just looking at being able to get a more "complete" 4K machine in a year or two, for a similar price.

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That is what I was wonder about getting that "wider gamut" technology. Will it really be that much better on my home setup, and will I even notice it.
I guess another way to put that answer is, yes, I've noticed a difference between DCI P3 and Rec 709 so I think it will be a benefit. Frankly I think the resolution is the least important and possibly least noticeable of all of the expected benefits of 4K Blu-ray. This is kind of why I'm so bearish on most current 4K machines. They are 4K resolution, but that's it, while the real benefits to 4K content I am looking forward to are Gamut, bit depth, etc.

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I see what you are saying. thanks for the advice. My question to you is do you think there will another jump in technology in a say 5-6 years? To say a hypothetical 8k projector?
If we get P3 or Rec 2020 gamut and 10+bit encoding like they are saying 4K Blu-ray will bring, then I would have almost zero interest in "8K". 4K will be a "retina" display or better for me in my HT.

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thanks stanger89 for being helpful. all of you posting in this thread really does help with the decision making. Stranger69, I know I wont get the 600es at a great low price, but if it was possible to get it for say $8k right now, would the decision to get it be different? I'm just seeing if those who say to wait is because of price or because of technology, or both. Again thanks.
I'm in the position that I have a projector, so I'm holding out. That said, I sort of look at it like this (I think I posted it in a previous thread): I've got a ~$3000/yr projector budget. I could just buy a new ~$3000 projector every year without too much pain. Say I've got enough saved that I could get a VW600 for $10000 today. Well if I could just wait, next year I'd have budget for a $13,000 projector, so I'd be able to get something better in a year, that's more likely to support the new 4K features. In two years (when there's more 4K content), that would be up to a $16,000 projector.

If I didn't have a projector this year, I could get a (theoretical) $10000 VW600 this year, but then it will likely be 4 years before I could upgrade, and I'd be stuck without all the new features I'm interested in (gamut/etc) for a number of years after. Or I could get a $3000 projector this year, and have the same budget next year for a real 4K machine.

It can go on, and on with what-ifs.

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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I agree. My Sim Lumis looks better in some ways than my VW600. It was expensive, but I've been enjoying it for 5 1/2 years! The other question is when will 4K Blu Ray standards really be finalized? There is talk about an initial standard, and then a better revised standard a couple of years down the road.
I've not seen any official talk about that, just that it will be out Holiday 2015, and will have higher bit depths and wider gamut. Though I could see HDR and HFR being additional profiles later.

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I'll continue to watch my 400+ Blu Ray collection for the next 5 years on my VW600 and Lumis, as I watch the dust settle ( if it ever does ).
You're really saying you won't start getting 4K Blu-ray's when they come out, common
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post #22 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 01:08 PM
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It's true you can wait for the next best thing all your life. But then there is something to be said for not shooting yourself in the foot while your standing in line.
Yup, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Of course if you picked up one of the new GoPro 4 Blacks that will shoot 4K24/30, you might have a bit of a case for grabbing a 4K projector sooner
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post #23 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 01:19 PM
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Me personally, I'm not talking about prices dropping, I'm just looking at being able to get a more "complete" 4K machine in a year or two, for a similar price.



I guess another way to put that answer is, yes, I've noticed a difference between DCI P3 and Rec 709 so I think it will be a benefit. Frankly I think the resolution is the least important and possibly least noticeable of all of the expected benefits of 4K Blu-ray. This is kind of why I'm so bearish on most current 4K machines. They are 4K resolution, but that's it, while the real benefits to 4K content I am looking forward to are Gamut, bit depth, etc.



If we get P3 or Rec 2020 gamut and 10+bit encoding like they are saying 4K Blu-ray will bring, then I would have almost zero interest in "8K". 4K will be a "retina" display or better for me in my HT.



I'm in the position that I have a projector, so I'm holding out. That said, I sort of look at it like this (I think I posted it in a previous thread): I've got a ~$3000/yr projector budget. I could just buy a new ~$3000 projector every year without too much pain. Say I've got enough saved that I could get a VW600 for $10000 today. Well if I could just wait, next year I'd have budget for a $13,000 projector, so I'd be able to get something better in a year, that's more likely to support the new 4K features. In two years (when there's more 4K content), that would be up to a $16,000 projector.

If I didn't have a projector this year, I could get a (theoretical) $10000 VW600 this year, but then it will likely be 4 years before I could upgrade, and I'd be stuck without all the new features I'm interested in (gamut/etc) for a number of years after. Or I could get a $3000 projector this year, and have the same budget next year for a real 4K machine.

It can go on, and on with what-ifs.



I've not seen any official talk about that, just that it will be out Holiday 2015, and will have higher bit depths and wider gamut. Though I could see HDR and HFR being additional profiles later.



You're really saying you won't start getting 4K Blu-ray's when they come out, common

I just bought a Blu Ray of one of my favorite comedies of all time - " The Party ", with Peter Sellers. It looks like they ported the DVD onto a Blu Ray. It took the studios two tries to get a proper copy of Gladiator and Patton on Blu Ray. I'll wait and read numerous reviews and let the initial teething problems correct themselves. That alone will take 2 years. If 4K Blu Ray doesn't look substantially better - on a disk by disk basis - no, I'll let you beta test this time on your dime ! I find top notch Blu Rays to look outstanding on my set up with both my VW600 and my Lumis. 4K Blu Ray has a really tall bar to clear. The studio's track record is not good at all when it comes to new higher resolution formats. That's why I can easily recommend buying a VW600 to watch Blu Rays on - today.

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post #24 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 02:17 PM
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Broadcast TV in the US is not likely to start 4K broadcasts any time soon.
Broadcast TV in the US is not likely to broadcast even 60Hz 1080P (which would be good for sports), let alone 4K. IMO, Broadcast TV will never broadcast in 4K at any frame rate. Too many regulatory issues. Plus they would rather use the BW for extra SD channels.

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4K streaming has gotten so-so reviews. That leaves 4K disc as the best possible source and it's not here yet.
Yes, and HD sucks on Netflix. But Netflix could tomorrow turn up the bitrate on HD to the 15 Mbps used for 4k and it would be as good as blu-ray is today. And as time goes on - and internet providers increase download speeds toward 100 Mbps (who knows), 4K could be provided by Netfix with as good a quality as 4K blu-ray promises.

But also - where is the 4k content. Most new movies are not being shot in 4k.

Last edited by rak306; 10-06-2014 at 02:20 PM. Reason: additional thought
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post #25 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 03:07 PM
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Yup, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Of course if you picked up one of the new GoPro 4 Blacks that will shoot 4K24/30, you might have a bit of a case for grabbing a 4K projector sooner
I plan on grabbing one of these to add to a DJI F450 quadrocopter I just built. The 3 axis gimble should provide solid aerial videos to view on the 1100.

I know you guys argue the resolution isn't as important as the other pending changes but I've viewed some native 4K content sitting 1.25 from my 142" that looks out of this world good so it's brief look into the future. I'll gladly take the res increase along with the other changes in color space, depth, etc.
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post #26 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mptech1 View Post
Hey Guys, (and gals if there are any here ) I am new to this forum so be gentle. My question is I was in the market to buy a front projector. I was looking at the Epson 6030 and the Jvc x500 but saw the Sony 600es and liked the picture and decided I might pony up the extra cash to get it.
When you say you were looking at the Epson and JVC but saw the Sony- does that mean you never actually saw either of the first two in person?

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet (apologies if I didn't see it) but one thing about buying two pjs over X years instead of blowing the budget right out of the gate on one more expensive one is that you get two fresh warranties that should double the amount of time you're covered.

And as far as 4K blu-ray...you guys must be chomping at the bit to see Transformers 6 , Pirates Of The Caribbean 8, and Chronicles of Riddick 5 or endless demo discs of Japanese gardens in as high a quality as possible...'cause that kind of stuff is pretty much going to be the main fare for many, many years. For every Lawrence Of Arabia or Taxi Driver that may squeak out, there's going to be forty disposable, formulaic action and sci-fi movies...and 3 years in I would be surprised to see more than just several hundred titles in the 4K catalog. We are eight years into Blu ray and there is still a slew of first and second tier catalog, modern and classic, that is nowhere to be seen or has only just come out.
For a movie buff like me, the promise of 4K is like the drunk at the bar telling me all his grandiose life plans. Yeah...whatever.
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If you can't see the difference in your home setup, then really what would the point in purchasing be? You need more than just an increase in resolution IMHO. My 7 year old Pioneer plasma produces a better picture than any of the 4K Sony TV panels I've seen with Blu-ray and I would take a 1080p Samsung OLED panel over any 4K TV panel I've seen today if I was buying a panel.





Sure there will. Otherwise what will CE manufactures have to sell?

I think you have to ask yourself what about the Sony 600es makes you want to buy it. Do you need 4K resolution? Is your screen size large enough, do you sit close enough that 4K is important? Is the VPL-VW600es brightness too much, not enough, or just right for your situation?

I use a 120" wide screen and my first row is 12 feet back. I had a VPL-VW1000es here at home to demo and the extra resolution was not a big plus for me, that is, I could not justify the cost.

I think what people are trying to tell you is that in approximately 12 months time there is the possibility of a true 4K source (4K Blu-ray). If that's the case, your demo 600es at $8K today will be a used projector that does not take full advantage of a new 4K Blu-ray spec and will be worth less than half that $8K assuming future 4K Blu-ray specs go where the discussions are pointing. You'll be able to buy an upgraded 4K projector that takes full advantage of the new Blu-ray spec (or at the very least full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 chips) for the same $8K or maybe less.

Broadcast TV in the US is not likely to start 4K broadcasts any time soon. 4K streaming has gotten so-so reviews. That leaves 4K disc as the best possible source and it's not here yet. So, what you get with the VPL-VW600es is a very nice up scaling 4k projector that may or may not be fully compatible with what the industry says they will bring to market next year.

Full disclosure: For me, 4K is still in the early adopter phase and as such carries a heavy tax. I've paid that tax many times in the past only to be disappointed a few months down the road too many times. Home theater projector technology is quite mature at this point in time. You can get a lot of projector for your dollars today; even more if you shop used. I'm waiting for a true 4K source and the expected extra benefits before I jump in.

It's true you can wait for the next best thing all your life. But then there is something to be said for not shooting yourself in the foot while your standing in line.

Very valid points, and you are right asking why I would want the 600es. I guess I want it because I was hoping to be able to get a projector that was considered a great projector at a steal of a price. (of course not sure that is even possible). It would do all that is on my list of projectors wishes, bright enough, good quality picture especially black levels, and sharp image. I have looked around and couldn't find that in projector in the price range so far. Granted I have only looked at the Epson 6030 and the jvc x500. The Epson lacked sharpness and blacks looked like they had no detail and the jvc had a soft picture,wasn't very sharp and motion was a little bit of an issue on the one I demoed. When I say sharp, I mean when it comes to live tv as well, ie sports, concerts. I really wish I could demo all three in my home theater room but of course that is not possible. That is why I am asking so many questions. I don't want to shoot my self in the foot either. Been there, done that.

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Me personally, I'm not talking about prices dropping, I'm just looking at being able to get a more "complete" 4K machine in a year or two, for a similar price.



I guess another way to put that answer is, yes, I've noticed a difference between DCI P3 and Rec 709 so I think it will be a benefit. Frankly I think the resolution is the least important and possibly least noticeable of all of the expected benefits of 4K Blu-ray. This is kind of why I'm so bearish on most current 4K machines. They are 4K resolution, but that's it, while the real benefits to 4K content I am looking forward to are Gamut, bit depth, etc.



If we get P3 or Rec 2020 gamut and 10+bit encoding like they are saying 4K Blu-ray will bring, then I would have almost zero interest in "8K". 4K will be a "retina" display or better for me in my HT.



I'm in the position that I have a projector, so I'm holding out. That said, I sort of look at it like this (I think I posted it in a previous thread): I've got a ~$3000/yr projector budget. I could just buy a new ~$3000 projector every year without too much pain. Say I've got enough saved that I could get a VW600 for $10000 today. Well if I could just wait, next year I'd have budget for a $13,000 projector, so I'd be able to get something better in a year, that's more likely to support the new 4K features. In two years (when there's more 4K content), that would be up to a $16,000 projector.

If I didn't have a projector this year, I could get a (theoretical) $10000 VW600 this year, but then it will likely be 4 years before I could upgrade, and I'd be stuck without all the new features I'm interested in (gamut/etc) for a number of years after. Or I could get a $3000 projector this year, and have the same budget next year for a real 4K machine.

It can go on, and on with what-ifs.



I've not seen any official talk about that, just that it will be out Holiday 2015, and will have higher bit depths and wider gamut. Though I could see HDR and HFR being additional profiles later.



You're really saying you won't start getting 4K Blu-ray's when they come out, common

Now if there is a 4k blu ray player available next Christmas, do you think there will be a projector released that will be compatible with it by next year to take all the advantages of the format? If so and you have both 4k blu ray and a new projector that is compatible, don't you also need the movie to be shot or filmed in that format to take advantage of the new technology? Or will they just get a blu ray movie that is already out and just "enhance" the crap out of it?


BTW, I forgot to mention that when I demoed the 600es, they had a 50" tv that was 4k and it was running a 4k demo. It was video of sheep on a mountain side. I have to say that I was completely blown away by the picture. it was like looking out a window at the real world. like I was in a cabin on the mountain looking out. I thought, wow if they could make a projector look like this. But then again, you really can't have it like this because movies were meant to be seen a certain way, not like live tv
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When you say you were looking at the Epson and JVC but saw the Sony- does that mean you never actually saw either of the first two in person?

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet (apologies if I didn't see it) but one thing about buying two pjs over X years instead of blowing the budget right out of the gate on one more expensive one is that you get two fresh warranties that should double the amount of time you're covered.

And as far as 4K blu-ray...you guys must be chomping at the bit to see Transformers 6 , Pirates Of The Caribbean 8, and Chronicles of Riddick 5 or endless demo discs of Japanese gardens in as high a quality as possible...'cause that kind of stuff is pretty much going to be the main fare for many, many years. For every Lawrence Of Arabia or Taxi Driver that may squeak out, there's going to be forty disposable, formulaic action and sci-fi movies...and 3 years in I would be surprised to see more than just several hundred titles in the 4K catalog. We are eight years into Blu ray and there is still a slew of first and second tier catalog, modern and classic, that is nowhere to be seen or has only just come out.
For a movie buff like me, the promise of 4K is like the drunk at the bar telling me all his grandiose life plans. Yeah...whatever.

I did demo all three. The JVC was really nice, but it just didn't seem bright enough. Really wish it was brighter or had a torch mode for sports and daytime viewing. I don't know how to describe what I saw when I watched the 600es, but it was just a much more "real" experience when watching the same movie I saw on the Epson or JVC. They had a space movie, I don't remember the name, but it looked really great on the 600es, much better than the Epson or jvc.
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post #29 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 04:52 PM
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When you say you were looking at the Epson and JVC but saw the Sony- does that mean you never actually saw either of the first two in person?

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet (apologies if I didn't see it) but one thing about buying two pjs over X years instead of blowing the budget right out of the gate on one more expensive one is that you get two fresh warranties that should double the amount of time you're covered.

And as far as 4K blu-ray...you guys must be chomping at the bit to see Transformers 6 , Pirates Of The Caribbean 8, and Chronicles of Riddick 5 or endless demo discs of Japanese gardens in as high a quality as possible...'cause that kind of stuff is pretty much going to be the main fare for many, many years. For every Lawrence Of Arabia or Taxi Driver that may squeak out, there's going to be forty disposable, formulaic action and sci-fi movies...and 3 years in I would be surprised to see more than just several hundred titles in the 4K catalog. We are eight years into Blu ray and there is still a slew of first and second tier catalog, modern and classic, that is nowhere to be seen or has only just come out.
For a movie buff like me, the promise of 4K is like the drunk at the bar telling me all his grandiose life plans. Yeah...whatever.

Yes, there are still a lot of films to come out on Blu Ray. Of course, most of them will look quite fine on my Sony VW600. I'm plenty excited about 4K projectors - since they bring so many other things to the table other than increased resolution. I like a projector that produces a bright, sharp picture - and the VW600 does that, for far less money than 3 chip DLP's - my favorite projectors.

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Last edited by Craig Peer; 10-06-2014 at 04:56 PM.
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post #30 of 138 Old 10-06-2014, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I was also in the same boat. Couldn't decide between the 55 or the 600es. Not sure which way to go. I can see reasons for both, but I don't have the advantage of getting it at a lower cost, so I may just go with the 55. I am going to hate having to sacrifice the extra brightness that the 600es would give me.
I hadn't looked at the 55. Not sure why. Is it a pretty good projector? I will have to look into it.
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