Right now there are only 3 consumer projectors with native 4K/UHD resolution and those are all from Sony with list prices (in the USA) of $10K, $15K and $28K. Then we have Epson and JVC producing projectors with pixel shifting to produce a pseudo 4K image (with 4 Mpixels that can be discretely addressed rather than the 8 Mpixel of a true 4K projector). I don't expect to see any new 4K projectors come to market before late 2015. We will surely seen new models from JVC, probably including a new generation of pixel shifting models that are compatible with the upcoming Ultra HD Blu-ray players, and perhaps also a flagship native 4K model. Since Epson just recently started shipping their LS10000 projector that uses pixel shifting to produce a pseudo-4K image and will be compatible with Ultra HD Blu-rays, I don't expect to see a native 4K model from Epson announced this year. Sony may bring out next generation models that more fully support the capabilities of Ultra HD Bly-ray, such as supporting DCI-P3 color space on all models. No recent news, or even good rumors, on the possibility of a consumer version of a DLP 4K chip making its way into products this year. DPI already has a $125K DLP 4K projector, but I don't consider that a consumer model (maybe if I had a 7-digit income). So at this point it's unknown if and when a consumer, single chip, 4K DLP projector will come to market. There is always some possibility that some other manufacturers will introduce pixel shifting modelslater this year, but there are no good rumors on this so far.
The big announcements on new projectors usually are made at the IFA show in Berlin, Germany (Sept. 2015) and the CEDIA Expo in the Dallas, Texas (Oct. 2015).
Usually the new models start shipping before the end of the year. Hopefully that still happens this year, with CEDIA starting a month later than usual.
So, are we probably looking at late 2017 for a true UHD Projector at $5K street price from JVC, Sony, or Epson? I'm getting the sense it will not happen even in 2016.
Of course having a consumer size 4K DLP chip is not the same as some manufacturer choosing to use it in a chassis they produce.
A lot would depend on how much TI charges for the chips etc, which you can bet will not be cheap. Atlas or one other projector OEMers will build one or two models and you can open a company to sell them with your name on the chassis. Probably need to order at least 5. My guess is the machines (3 chippers, bulb lit, would cost about $45K before the two mark ups. The company ordering from the OEMer needs to make money as well as the resellers so the price at street might be around $80K.
It was mentioned in the $20k+ forum that TI has had a .9" 4K DMD for a number of years and commercial manufactures have chosen not to use it. Maybe this will be the chip size TI will bring or a variant on the DMD (UHD vs 4K)? I hope someone brings one to market.
I posted in the Mini Shootout thread, but if you look at the specs on the new Pico 1080p DMD, it's basically exactly 1/4 the physical size of a 0.95" 1080p, DMD. In other words, the pixels are the perfect size to make a 0.95" 2160p DMD.
TI has a smaller commercial DMD that's 4K at a size of .90". I'm going to take a guess this is the DMD they're going to use to create a consumer 4K DMD with. So it might be something like .88" or .89" for a UHD variant.
There is a very interesting article in the April 10 issue of SCIENCE magazine on a 'laser that emits bright, incoherent light [that] provides an ideal light source for imaging'. The key is 'use of a highly multimode laser to partially suppress coherence [i.e., speckle]'. This is not my field, but it does sound like a significant step forward, though it might take a lot of good engineering to bring it to a product.
There is a very interesting article in the April 10 issue of SCIENCE magazine on a 'laser that emits bright, incoherent light [that] provides an ideal light source for imaging'. The key is 'use of a highly multimode laser to partially suppress coherence [i.e., speckle]'.
I despise 'speckle', "partially suppress" (bold emphasis mine) would be a leap forward, but I still wouldn't touch laser technology until the speckle problem has been resolved (if that is even feasible).
I just decided to get a Sony HW40ES while I wait for a 4K projector to come down sub $3-4k. Like Craig said, by the time the bulb needs replacing 4-5 years then 4K projectors will be cheap and good enough, not to mention content should finally be readily available. I know blu-ray says end of 2015, but I don't see it going mainstream for another 2-3 years at least, and broadcast/cable maybe even longer Its the same reason I bought one of the last ZT60 Panasonic Plasma TV's for my upstairs room, amazing quality 1080P display, plan to keep it for another 4-5 years at least until 4K OLED or something equivalent comes along less then $3k, not a fan of the 4K LCD's out in the sub $3k range.
lol, thanks guys. I was joking....kinda. It was supposed to be the "it" projector wasn't it? Isn't it Red that likes to get everyone excited about a new product then never release it? lol
Yep and that is why I said, I bet Red is tired of answering questions about this projector. Usually Red just announces things way too early. In this case, they shelved the project.
I have a bit of a dilemma, looking for some insight and advice.
i have a multi purpose room, plasma and 130" screen in a bright living room, with a JVC X500 / RS 4910.
Im stripping all this out and moving to a separate dedicated dark room. Im selling most of my kit in advance, going for AT screen and so on.
This room will be ready around August and I'm wondering should I keep my X500 or sell it on now, as I'll want to go for something in native 4k. I worry though, with Cedia in October this year, will there be anything available PJ wise before Christmas - and I'd have nothing between August and December even if PJs hit the streets by then.
Also, 4k blu ray - will it even be available by year end - so am I better to tough it out with my 1080 X500 till early next year as no playback source or media till then?
This room will be ready around August and I'm wondering should I keep my X500 or sell it on now, as I'll want to go for something in native 4k. I worry though, with Cedia in October this year, will there be anything available PJ wise before Christmas - and I'd have nothing between August and December even if PJs hit the streets by then.
Also, 4k blu ray - will it even be available by year end - so am I better to tough it out with my 1080 X500 till early next year as no playback source or media till then?
Well, all the HDR talk is about a peak white level of about 1000 nits, which is around 300ftL. But this is for flat panels, "standard" brightness for flat panels today is supposedly around 100 nits (30ftL).
If we assume front projection is about 15ftL (half as bright as flat panels), then I would think the HDR target would be about 500nits, or 150 ftL.
Or to look at it another way, HDR is about an order of magnitude (10x) increase in peak white level, so that would mean if 1000 Lumens is good today, 10,000 lumens would be good for HDR.
Of course this ignores the fact that HDR is largely metadata describing how to map content to displays with varying capabilities. It could be, (should be?) that implementing Dolby Vision, SMPTE 2084/2086 in projectors will not need that many Lumens, but will rather focus more on making better use of the lumens and dynamic range we've already got.
Wondering if TI might make a pseudo 4k by utilizing a 2k chip and adding the 'wobbulation' thing. That way they could have a low price 4k-ish chip on the market and keep the real 4k chips priced high. Just a thought.
The Christie demo last year reportedly was mastered for 400 nits. 1000 nits is already a comprimise the metadat should take care of. 5000 nits I was told by an HDR developer. Dolby white paper posted here somewhere even speaks of up to 10K nits or more, as a future target.
10K lumens is about the limit for single chip DLP, but that leaves the issue of the intra-image modulation to get the contrast.
I can only see HDR possible in projectors with the implementation of high-powered scanning lasers (a Celluon PicoAir projector on steroids) or the use of dual-DMDs to block individual zones of pixels.
There is always a price to innovation and sometimes keeping prices sky-high is the only way to create enough revenue to push the science further. The other issue is why develop something that only sells a few at $10,000, when you can keep adding lumens and contrast to 1080p and create a line of projectors that sell like hot cakes for $1000 to $1500. The market for 4K is in the living room with a non-projection TV right now and for years to come. And really do we need it for 100" to 120" projection screens. The true value of 4K for projection would be 150" screens or bigger--and only a few have the room for that. Oh well, I'm just as hungry to see cheap 4K as the next person.
There is always a price to innovation and sometimes keeping prices sky-high is the only way to create enough revenue to push the science further. The other issue is why develop something that only sells a few at $10,000, when you can keep adding lumens and contrast to 1080p and create a line of projectors that sell like hot cakes for $1000 to $1500. The market for 4K is in the living room with a non-projection TV right now and for years to come. And really do we need it for 100" to 120" projection screens. The true value of 4K for projection would be 150" screens or bigger--and only a few have the room for that. Oh well, I'm just as hungry to see cheap 4K as the next person.
Depends how close you want to sit from that 120" screen. At 11'6" from a 128" diagonal 2.35:1 screen, I can't move closer without seeing pixels on my 1080p projector now. I'm as close as I can ever get. I could move closer to the screen with my 4K projector. So I don't think that you need a 150" screen to see the difference.
As for the topic, I dont really care that much about 4K, but if there is anything Im hoping for, its some new DLP's. Maybe new chips from TI will make that happen.
Why is it obvious? Craig has stated many times he thinks the two have images that look incredibly similar to one another. I've never once saw him posting the Lumis was better. If I had to describe the image of the Lumis I'd say it's like an exceptionally bright Planar PD8150. When I had my Lumis here I brightness matched it with the PD8150 (though this was my DC4 upgraded PD8150) and the images were indistinguishable from one another. Though to brightness match them I needed to use low lamp mode, an ND2 filter, and the manual iris in the lumis in it's most closed position to get it with a few lux of the PD8150.
Seegs108 - I can assure you the speckle problems in the Illumina are solved. Power Technology spent $1.5M to reduce speckle to acceptable levels. The result was 77 lasers made for the US Military. These robust systems are deployed world wide presently. The lessons learned during this contract were applied to our Illumina Light Source.
I must also point out, the Illumina is not a home theater product as an AVS Forum post implied. In clear disclosure, this isn't a solution for every AV installation. It is only compatible with the largest projectors normally found in professional cinema and large venue events. It isn't designed as a home cinema product. It isn't compatible with most low-end projectors.
We are happy to answer questions if you post them below or in a more appropriate thread.
The Laser Experts at Power Technology
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