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post #1 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a JVC/Dila using a borrowed CI scaler from the local dealer i watched the movie last night "Contenders" and i noticed that the whites seemed awfully hot lots of blooming, if you would look at the windows in the movie they were so bright that you couldn't even make out the shears that were on the window and also the window cross hatches, everything was a bright white, any ideas? I set up the system with the Video essentials disc.
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post #2 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 11:43 AM
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I've never been real thrilled with the whites on my G11. They just ain't white.

There's a few things to consider, though.

If you use a grey screen, as most of us do, that WILL change the look of white. My DIY screen was painted half white, half grey, to compare the difference. In my situation, the whites took on just a tad of yellow shade with the grey screen. Obviously, the grey screen does great things for blacks and contrast.

Then there's the issue of white level settings. We have so many ways to adjust this(projector user settings, Dilard wizard, PC video card, etc.), it can be real confusing sometimes.

I spent hours the other night going back and forth between my modified Dilard black level settings and the original projectors black level settings. The modified setting is what I'll stick with because of the much improved contrast I see, but it comes at the cost of putting a little noise in lighter colors, especially white. I actually see a bit of pink and green blooming(for lack of better term)in some really bright scenes. It's barely noticable, and probably correctable by fine tuning the mod in Dilard. But what I really think is that we need the rest of the Dilard wizards(gamma and 8 Bar)to bring everything together. The Black Level Wizard is just one piece of the puzzle. We need the other pieces. Hint, hint. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

I use a twin view setup, so when I have my monitor on at the same time as the G11, that's when I really see a difference. In fact, I use the monitor as sort of a test screen for color, contrast and brightness adjusting on the G11. Compared to the monitor, the proper white and grey have been really hard for me to duplicate.

My G11 is not calibrated, BTW. I'd be willing to bet that would make huge improvements, based on recent comments here on the forum.

Chris

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post #3 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 12:24 PM
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Chris

My uncalibrated G-15 using dilard on a grayhawk now looks quite good. After making the black level adjustments I increased the gamma settings in the ATI player.

Initially I also saw some color aberrations which almost seemed to be a color version of the posterization comments others made regarding their jvc calibrations. This was adjusted out using higher rgb settings than what I first ended up with when I used dilard. Also upping the gamma may have helped this particular aspect of color rendering.

IMHO we need more direction either from Mark or others in order to properly adjust these settings before the next dilard release. If we haven't gotten a handle on this adjustment layering more possibilities on top exponentially increases our errors. I guess thats why William gets the bucks. Although I haven't seen the full possibilities of dilard the more I see the more I think I'll be using William one day.

Last night we watched Men of Honor and I must say the image now looks terrific. I'm convinced that dilard turns down the bias way too much on the G and B. But us tweakaholics gotta love it!

Rick
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post #4 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 03:59 PM
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Rick,

The way I see it is:

You wouldn't send your G15 to Wm to have it calibrated and only have him do the black level settings, then send it back to you. He would do the complete calibration. Gamma, 8 Bar and I'm sure other adjustments.

We're making changes to the black level, but nothing else. At this point in time anyway. Changing the black is indeed throwing off other parameters of the projector, like gamma.

I think we NEED to have the gamma and 8 Bar wizards to complete the circle.

Will it be as good as the calibrations done by Wm and others? Probably not, but I'd sure like to see a side by side comparison just to see how big the difference would be.


I'm very, very tempted to send my G11 to have it calibrated. I know it would be an excellent decision, but............I've been so very pleased with the way Mark Hunter has contributed to this forum, and his quest for DILA perfection and simplicity, that I'm going to hang in there and wait for the rest of the wizards. He has helped so many of us so many times.

Besides, I think he'd be the first to admit that the wizards won't or wouldn't do quite the right job for our calibration needs. If that ever is the case, then I'll send in my G11.

Any of you guys that have a calibrated Gxx care to comment on the difference in whites before and after?
Chris

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post #5 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 04:22 PM
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CCLAY,

I agree with you 100%. I am seeing the same strange hot whites and hot yellows and greens now that we have the first piece of the dilard puzzle.

I have switched back and forth from my original settings to my adjusted black settings, and prefer the newer darker settings despite the obvious and bad affect it has had on the colors in some areas.

I have also noticed that CBS seems to be very 'hot' in my terms, with the whites and colors. Watching the final four and the Masters was very nice with the blacker blacks, but I noticed the hot over powering whites and slight discoloration in white as well. Everything seems oversaturated and the bottom end near black is now definitely crushed. I think that the top end is crushed as well. When calibrating it with the wizard, I actually had to take the red setting down another 5-6% from where the band just disappeared in dilard to help out with the red tinge in bright whites.

We do have only one piece of the puzzle, and I knew it was going to happen as soon as finished my first pass with the black level wizard. Gamma is way off now, though the higher contrast ratio is so enticing I can't force myself to switch back.

I too have thought about sending my G11 to William. Actually I had it arranged with him for just after Super Bowl, but decided that I would wait for Mark's software and the ability to do it myself at home. Shipping this thing across the country scares me. I think that as good as Mark's helps are in the black wizard (and they really are great Mark), I need a little more background information to adjust this thing properly. One question I certainly have is relates to the final setting of white. What is actually going on here, and could this scaling factor be causing some of the issues we are seeing?

I think that the gamma and 8-bar wizards will definitely help - and can't wait to see if I can get the colors correct now.

Brian

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post #6 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 04:24 PM
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Wow, Chris:

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I've been so very pleased with the way Mark Hunter has contributed to this forum, and his quest for DILA perfection and simplicity, that I'm going to hang in there and wait for the rest of the Wizards. He has helped so many of us so many times.</font>
&lt;blush&gt;. Thanks for the nice write up, Chris. I am humbled.


I suppose that deserves a little update to answer the hidden questions buried within...

The Black Level Wizard really should really not exist on it's own at all. Without the Gamma Correction Wizard (and even the 8 bar Wizard), the Black Level Wizard may improve the black level at the expense of other areas of the projector.

However, the last time that I wanted to wait to release something that was complete, I received an Inbox full of "We want to try it anyway...just in case it helps". So, I put the Black Level Wizard into the 2.0 release even though the Gamma Correction Wizard is still in the shop.

I was surprised to hear how many people really got a kick out of improving the black level! I guess it was a good idea to release it after all (although my support load went up quite a bit as everyone tried to figure out what it does and exactly how to use it!).

However, in general, a good suggestion would be to wait until the Gamma Correction Wizard gets paired with the Black Level Wizard for optimal results.

In fact, we are working on building the "Projector Self Calibration Wizard". I can't give away all of the details just yet, lest our competitors get the information, but let me just say that the D-ILA projectors have all of the guts and hardware that they need to calibrate themselves! Sound crazy? I understand. I would be skeptical, too.

Remember that many folks said that the Image Geometry Wizard wasn't going to be possible either...

The only thing that I'm worried about is getting all of the components developed for a commercial-ready product before everyone loses interest!

Mark Hunter
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post #7 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 05:14 PM
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Chris and Mark

My uncalibrated, except bias level by me, G-15 does look better than it ever has as a result of dilard. I get a kick feeling that I was able to increase the visual value of this projector.

But, and Mark please correct me if I'm wrong, the next iteration of dilard will include the 8 bar wizard and everthough we'll be able to perform calibrations with the wizard, it will best be used with instrumentation, expensive instrumentation.

If the only way to perfect the presentation of the G-XX is to use expensive instrumentation many of us will be contacting William.

I can't wait for each version of dilard and I feel that I'm getting my money's worth and then some, but I think the well outfitted dila projector will have dilard and Williams calibration.

Rick

On the dilard 2.1 faq it states something to the effect that the 8 bar wizard can be run in a noninstrumented fashion or with optional external instrumentation. I'm assuming this optional instrumentation is not something I can get at radio shack. Still I very much look forward to playing with these tools.

[This message has been edited by rick e (edited 04-11-2001).]
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post #8 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 06:01 PM
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Hi Rick,

You are correct. The "Calibrated Meter" choice will produce more accurate results then the "By Eye" approach. How much remains to be seen.

http://www.dilard.com/images/screenshots/gammawiz.jpg

The "instruments" will be supported in a "plug-in" architecture to make the Wizard as future-proof as possible. We will start with support for one to three meters, with at least one of them being a very inexpensive probe that you would be able to purchase for under $300 or rent for as little as $50.

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post #9 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 06:57 PM
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Way to go Mark. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Thanks for the sneak peak of the next installment to our Dilard program.

Chris

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post #10 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 07:15 PM
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Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut??????????
Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut??????????

Wonder where that colorimeter thread disappeared to???

To do 8 bar with any spectrometer regardless of price
is very very close to impossible. You need a fiber probe
small enough to measure one pixel. On a 100 inch screen
thats still less than .1 inch. Then you have to accurately
position that fiber across 8 pixels.

The 8 bar is definitely one of those do it by hand and use
the old eyeball.

[This message has been edited by kevin gilmore (edited 04-12-2001).]
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post #11 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 09:00 PM
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Mark

I find the "it might take an hour" warning quite amusing. Setting the bias on my dila took a week and I'm still not done. But I have enjoyed what dilard has allowed me to learn about my projector.

I can't wait, my eyes are salivating at the thought of the future richness of what is already a terrific image.

Thank You Mark

Rick McGee
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post #12 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 10:24 PM
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Kevin,

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut.</font>
Was that a request to me, or a question to yourself? If the latter, a question mark would have helped!


Rick,

&lt;LOL&gt;! By the way, the 8 Bar Wizard will not have an option to use instrumentation. Sorry for any confusion, but your choices are left eye, right eye or both eyes. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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post #13 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 10:42 PM
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Quote'
"Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut.
Spill all the beans, or keep mouth shut.
Wonder where that colorimeter thread disappeared to???
To do 8 bar with any spectrometer regardless of price
is very very close to impossible. You need a fiber probe
small enough to measure one pixel. On a 100 inch screen
thats still less than .1 inch. Then you have to accurately
position that fiber across 8 pixels."


I must've missed something.

Chris


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post #14 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 10:52 PM
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I've noticed this too. It was quite troubling until I realized it's mostly dependent on the source. CBS-HD seems to be the worst, especially the live golf and tennis. I really think I've never (even once) seen it on any of the HBO-HD movies.
If it is your pj, have you used or thought about using DILARD?
-Dave
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post #15 of 25 Old 04-11-2001, 11:06 PM
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Chris,

The 8 bar refers to eight column drivers in the ILA panels. There is one for pixels 1, 9, 17...a second one for pixels 2, 10, 18...etc. There are a total of 8 drivers, and each of them takes 1/8 of the total # of pixels.

If they don't all track equally, you can get some annoying vertical lines in the picture. All 8 of them have to be set correctly for the picture to appear D-ILA silky smooth. Actually, to be precise, there are 8 for each of R, G & B in both high and low ranges for a total of 8*3*2 = 48 possible adjustments.

If they aren't set correctly, the vertical lines can appear.

Kevin was just mentioning that in order to have an instrumented Wizard that corrects for this anomaly, you would need to use a fiber optic probe that is less than the size of a pixel to take a measurement...and it would have to be an accurate one, too.

Even if you had such a probe, you would still have to position it on the correct pixel, which would be difficult.

To make a long story short, there is no "automatic 8 bar Wizard". This will need to be done by eye, as it always has.

[This message has been edited by milori (edited 04-12-2001).]

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post #16 of 25 Old 04-12-2001, 01:07 PM
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Thanks Mark.

I wonder if that would explain my pinkish vertical stripe on the extreme right edge of my image? It wasn't there when I first got my G11. It suddenly appeared a few months ago.

Chris

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post #17 of 25 Old 04-13-2001, 11:16 AM
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Nobody has any comments on the before and after calibration look of whites??

Chris

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post #18 of 25 Old 04-14-2001, 04:39 PM
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Has anyone have this issue with Dilard and black level setting.
I have the moving bar on Green setting only REd and Blue I see none.
I've increased as much as 80 clicks but no help.


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post #19 of 25 Old 04-14-2001, 05:49 PM
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Hugo

I couldn't actually get the green bias setting low enough for the moving bar to disappear either. It seems to me that except for red the green and blue bias settings were too low when you follow the wizard. Instead of continuing to move the red down in the fine tuning section of the wizard I turned up the blue and green and attained a more natural picture.

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post #20 of 25 Old 04-14-2001, 06:48 PM
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Interesting.

I had no problems with any of the three moving bars disappearing. I did have to click down quite a bit on one of the colors(don't remember which), but all the bars eventually disappeared.

Chris

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post #21 of 25 Old 04-14-2001, 07:00 PM
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Rick & Chris
In the Red and blue mode I dont see a bar at any setting.

Hugo
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post #22 of 25 Old 04-14-2001, 08:59 PM
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Hi Hugo,

What are your Pj picture settings at when you start the wizard?

I found that the wizards reacted differently according to my initial Pj settings. I found that setting everything to "0" was the best way to start. Did you try that?

Chris

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post #23 of 25 Old 04-15-2001, 06:16 AM
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Thanks Chris
I'll check that tonight
But I believe everithing is set to 0.
Would the refresh rate have anything to do with it. I got mine set at 72.

1360x1024
Thanks Hugo
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post #24 of 25 Old 04-15-2001, 01:17 PM
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Hugo, my res and refresh are the same as yours.

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post #25 of 25 Old 04-15-2001, 11:36 PM
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Hugo,

You're not going crazy!

I've had a couple people let me know that they haven't been able to see one bar or another in that Wizard. I wish that I had an explanation for you, but I'm still trying to find the connection as well.

It may have to do with the Gamma settings. Maybe having a ramp that is too low on the black end would cause one bar or another to not appear. The bars are each 5 IRE in their respective colors (R, G, B). 5 IRE is fairly dark.

As you probably remember, I went through a period where I was analyzing a lot of different Gamma curves, and I found that there is quite a bit of variance in the factory calibrated projectors. It is possible that the individual unit to unit variances in the Gamma could make it such that 5 IRE is indistinguishable from 0 IRE in this Wizard. Therefore, the bars do not appear at all.

That's my best theory at the moment, anyway.

You can still set the bias levels, but without benefit of using the moving bar pattern. It's much harder without it, but the way that many of the projectors have been calibrated in the past.

There is also a way to change the 5 IRE to a higher value (it's not exposed through normal running of the Wizard). That may or may not help. E-mail me if you are interested.

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