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projector with auto calibration with internal camera?

4K views 25 replies 10 participants last post by  Seegs108 
#1 ·
I am looking at a projector like the epson ls10000. $8000.

Why does a human still have to do the calibration for a projector in this price class when competent 13MP cell-phone camera systems have BOMs
 
#2 ·
A system like that is kind of pointless. A projector does not need to be constantly calibrated or adjusted like a camera, maybe once every 200-300 hours you need to fix some minor drift (especially with todays projectors, they don't typical need the constant attention older ones did with color, gamma and greyscale). You should be adjusting focus and convergence after the unit has warmed up, that way every time you power the unit back up it will be dialed in when warmed up. Projectors really don't need a system like the one you speak of.
 
#3 ·
it's kind of a catch-22 imo.

MOST(not all) ppl that are willing to spend top dollar on a projector are seriously into the hobby, or mega rich. so they pretty likely to either do their own calibrations, and somewhat enjoy that, or have no problem paying for one.

it's the ppl buying the 800-1200 dollar business class projector that would get the most benefit out of something like this. and at that point, it may not be financially appealing, or even that noticeable.

don't get me wrong, i wouldn't be against a simple to use system like the auto-eq/mic features on a receiver, but i don't think they need to have a built-in camera that's constantly adjusting things
 
#4 ·
not pointless. but perhaps less desired than I thought.

a single calibration can easily costs $300. from what I understand, as bulbs (lasers?) age, they also change in a non-deterministic fashion. the panels can get out of alignment, too. and even with some light seeping in from a window and wall-paint, it can make a difference.

most receivers nowadays come with a mic and autocalibration, even if it makes less difference here.

Q: does a projector like the LS10000 really need only one life-time calibration and alignment (for the rich)?

pity.
 
#5 ·
This same question I raised about ten years ago in a post.( haven't posted much in the interim) There were similar responses.
It is a glaring omission.
All projector manufaturers should make auto-callibration standard. Camera could easily be switched on and off and used when desired. No one drives without traction control or antilock brakes or airbags anymore( most people probably don't even recognize what the heck those things are because they are standard) The Pj should come out the box, point at whatever surface and look near perfect every time. With today's hardware and software technology this could be true on day one and even a year later as the light source ages.
I'm not aware of any PJ's that have such a system.
 
#9 ·
yes, I am one of the people who usually just live with out-of-the-box performance. aside from focus drift and color drift, what about convergence drift with 4K overlapping squares?? I wonder how easy this will be. and what about evening light coming in just a little bit vs. night?

self-monitoring and auto-adjustment may not be great features for a $500 projector, but for an $8000 projector, it would seem like a good idea.

I need the shorter throw of the epson projector, and I like the quick startup, so I can't do the Sony :-( but it looks like I may as well spring for the LS10000, as self-tuning does not seem to be a feature just around the corner in 12 months.

/iaw
 
#10 ·
I think you guys are underestimating the complexity and cost of something that could auto-focus/auto-calibrate everything. While camera sensors are cheap, good lenses are not. Do an experiment for me, take your cell phone, stand back where your projector is, and take a picture of the screen. Now look at that picture and tell me if you can see pixel-level detail. Also tell me if the white balance is correct.

I have a prediction, you won't be able to. Beyond that if you've done any photography with "real" cameras, you know that there's no such thing as infinite focus, there's depth of field, the projector's focus camera would first have to figure out what to focus on itself, and if it's just a white screen, that probably won't work well. And if you're projecting a grid pattern how would the projector know if the projection was out of focus or the focus camera was out of focus.

And as for built in color calibration, I don't think cell phone sensors have the accuracy necessary to do that, well I just had an experience where my external colorimeters (i1D2, Spyder 3) proved to be "bad" which led to wildy incorrect color temp and grayscale, I wonder how the build in color sensors hold up over time.
 
#11 ·
Calibration is about accuracy.

You need to have a meter that is going to accurately calibrate your system. You're not going to get that with something low cost like a built-in camera, cell phone, or bottom barrell meter. Some people are looking for a magic button they can push that does the job. I remember my previous Sony 57" RPTV had something called a "Flash Focus" button which was in a matter of seconds was supposed to properly converge all three color guns. It was half-assed at best; you needed to go into the service menu and manual adjust each color to do it right.

The bare minimum for calibration IMO would be an i1Pro that is periodically checked and calibrated itself against a reference spectro (like a Jeti 1211, for example). All of this calibration equipment drifts over time too and needs to be maintained to take accurate readings.
 
#12 ·
Projectors nowadays are pretty well adjusted from the factory. I am at my third projector in almost nine years (VPL-VW50, VPL-VW60, VPL-VW1100ES) and never calibrated professionally any of them. I only adjusted some settings using calibration sources like the S&M Blu-Ray. Their picture has been superb in my opinion.
 
#13 ·
the BOM for the iphone 5S camera is $13 in 2013. you need a (fixed) zoom lens to magnify. The units are tiny. In a projector, aim 4 of them, one towards each corner. each has to resolve about 1K of pictures. the variable cost per unit is small. the software development will take more, but can be spread. unlike a colorimeter, you have volume demand, though.

the experiment with a cell phone camera is much harder. there are big advantages relative to a cell phone camera: [1] you have control over varying the picture that is being displayed. [2] focus is known to be from 12' to 30'. [3] the device is completely steady and you can leave the aperture open for a long time to sample. [4] you can display a test picture at the factory and record what the cameras see, for a correction function. the color space is modest, compared to what you need for an indoor/outdoor cell camera.

you need to resolve pixels. you need to have a mapping function on the limited color space and brightness variation of the projector that is not completely flat, so that you can correct for it (at the factory) under perfect light conditions. because you have four cameras, you can correct them against one another on some overlap and your known desired test picture (with allowance for known drift over time), and recalibrate them.

Comparably, a Spyder 3 that has to work against all sorts of projectors and does not have itself access to all the projector settings. I can't imagine a person doing it any better. this is the kind of task that machines in 2016 (not in the old era of CRTs) are well suited to.

Clearly, this is *not* a project for a 3rd party. It would have to be done at the OEM level. Maybe it is not feasible, but I would be surprised. For cheap projector, the same fixed cost infra-structure development could be used with one camera. It would make sense for Epson, Panasonic, Sony and maybe a few others. It's competitive enough. I would much rather have this than 3D, although I understand that the latter was a marketing device. My hope would be that with some marketing dollars, enough projector review websites will find enough improvement for this to matter. then again, it does not seem to be on the horizon.

regards,

/iaw
 
#14 ·
the BOM for the iphone 5S camera is $13 in 2013. you need a (fixed) zoom lens to magnify. The units are tiny. In a projector, aim 4 of them, one towards each corner. each has to resolve about 1K of pictures. the variable cost per unit is small. the software development will take more, but can be spread. unlike a colorimeter, you have volume demand, though.
Again though, take your cellphone stand at your projector and take a picture of the screen and tell me if that gives you pixel level detail. And then try and take a picure of a 5% window pattern and tell me if you can get anything without too much noise to make it useful.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Interesting, I thought all Sony projectors had a CMS? I didn't know the 1100ES doesn't have one. I would think calibrating to the screen would be trickier without CMS but maybe they involves more greyscale. I wonder what happens over several thousand hours and lamp usage - how do you fix for drift?
 
#22 ·
Within a year I'm sure we'll see a 4K in/out Lumagen. Currently Lumagen only has 1080p in/upscale to 4K output. That will solve that dilemma. Though right now one can use MadVR's 3D LUT to calibrate the 1100ES right now. Another win goes to the HTPC camp. :)
 
#24 ·
some buyers of $5-10k projectors want convenience over perfection. they have the money but not the time, to get a good projector. they don't want to twiddle too much themselves (even convergence). and it is not convenient for them to find someone, make an appointment, talk to them, etc. recalibrate every other year? there is time, attention, and inconvenience beside the $300 expense. First find someone trustworthy. yikes. given a choice between $500 more upfront for a feature and two extra person visits, in this price class, some will prefer the $500 upfront. me!

there are also people who don't mind paying $2-5k more for convenience (of installation) and who have a personal attendant (butler) to take care of handling this, but this is yet another class of buyers. not me!
 
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