Larry Davis and others. Need help in choosing projector. - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 Old 04-17-2001, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
clopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi Larry,
I am think about upgrading my DL450 to a newer projector. preferable a XGA DLP. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

clopez

PS I am thinking to stay with the Davis line. How about the X10

[This message has been edited by clopez (edited 04-17-2001).]
clopez is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 04-17-2001, 04:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: tumbling down the rabbit hole
Posts: 5,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi clopez,
As you know I am super picky about image quality. I think my answer would depend on your budget and your tastes. I was very happy with my DL450 and ISCO lens. The ISCO really transformed the projector. Personally, I don't know of any XGA single chip DLP that really knocks the ball out of the park. The Seleco HT250 has had some problems, as Tom Strade has pointed out. The Dwin Transvision has gotten very good reviews, but it (and the Seleco) are very expensive. I have been very disappointed with the developments in single chip DLP. Moore's law does not apply to DLP. As for the NEC, Plus, Davis and InFocus XGA models, I don't know what to expect from most of the newest units. I do know that all of them had serious problems. Knowing what I know now, I would be very wary of any XGA single chip DLP. But some people have enjoyed their XGA DLP's for a year or two and not agreed with me that the problems I saw were deal killers. I don't really have anything in common with them, other than I own a front projector. I'm not after the same experience as them. So, what I can say is this: I don't know of any XGA single chip DLP with a sub $10K MSRP that I would recommend. However, I would keep my options open with D-ILA. D-ILA doesn't have the crispness and depth of DLP, but it does have invisble pixels, accurate colors and HDTV compatibility. D-ILA has dead pixels and possibly green fog, poor absolute blacks (at least in uncalibrated units), loud fan noise and probably a few other problems I'm forgetting, but the positives can outweigh the negatives. I wish I could have given you a thumbs up recommendation for a specific XGA unit.

Ahh, I see you edited your post. Well, from what I understand, the DLX10 had serious tearing problems. Maybe the new software can fix it? It's too bad Mark Rejhon's triple buffering post has been deleted. It went into a lot of detail on why triple buffering was so important in preventing tearing. I think Robert Clark got better results with his DLX650 and newer software, didn't he? He was also driven up the wall with the tearing problem of the Davis XGA units. I wonder if Davis makes any XGA models that don't have tearing? I know of at least one forum member who can answer that definitively. I guess that's the big question: Does Davis make ANY XGA units that don't have tearing?
Larry Davis is offline  
post #3 of 18 Old 04-17-2001, 04:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
Tim Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Have you considered CRT? Supposedly you can get really good projectors for under $5K (used). From what I've read, if you want a great picture and are willing to deal with the setup issues, it's a great way to go.

Tim
Tim Smith is offline  
post #4 of 18 Old 04-17-2001, 07:58 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
RobertWood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 17,185
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Seting up and maintaining a CRT is not nearly as unfriendly as many believe it to be.
True, like just about anything (PC's for example), it requires a little
getting used to in the beginning. But it's easily and quickly mastered.
And you are so right that it absolutely hands down wins the performance/price contest right now.

Bob



------------------
~~The Sultan of Cheap~~
RobertWood is offline  
post #5 of 18 Old 04-17-2001, 11:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
dlptheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Larry Davis:
I think Robert Clark got better results with his DLX650 and newer software, didn't he? He was also driven up the wall with the tearing problem of the Davis XGA units. I wonder if Davis makes any XGA models that don't have tearing?</font>
I owned a DLX650 that I bought from Robert Clard for awhile before selling it to another forum member (Mike F). Anyways Davis's software has fixed the tearing problem for the 650, so I'm assuming it would be fixed on their newer XGA models as well.

The 650 was super nice (XGA rocks!) but I could not justify keeping it since with my screen size SVGA works well, and we don't have any HDTV here yet so my source materail was only DVD.

------------------
lance
I'm looking for a job!
Resume online at http://resumes.dice.com/lkstitch
dlptheater is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 08:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mflaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 1,529
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yup, I now own the DLX650 in question. I think it's amazing! But I have no point of reference. In fact, through a long story, I currently have an older version of the software which *does* have tearing, but it doesn't bother me at all. I guess I fail the Larry Davis test! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

Some brief comments about the DLX650: *With* revision 'L' (most recent) of the software, there's no more tearing (see http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/003226.html).

The downside is that there's a green push (adjustable in some DVD players, like PowerDVD, but not currently in dTV), the light output is slightly lower, and the color wheel makes more whining noise when it's in 'video mode'.

Mike


[This message has been edited by mflaster (edited 04-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by mflaster (edited 04-18-2001).]
mflaster is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 08:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Davis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: tumbling down the rabbit hole
Posts: 5,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mike,
Don't worry if you think you fail my "test". I suggest you enjoy the picture. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Larry Davis is offline  
post #8 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 08:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mflaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 1,529
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Larry,

Maybe if I tried harder! I can sit closer to the screen... I can try wiggling my head back and forth, maybe waving a pen in front of the screen, or in front of my eyes... Hey, if I put the pen *in* my eye, I think I finally see the rainbow!!!!

Ahh, maybe enjoying the theater is a better idea... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

I guess a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and so it a *LOT* of knowledge!!!!

Mike
mflaster is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 09:01 AM
Senior Member
 
Disto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Posts: 468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Clopez, Larry

I have the DLX10 and with the latest software, there is no more tearing at 60hz or less. Also, it spins the color wheel at twice the normal speed when using the "video mode", which greatly reduces rainbowing. I like it a lot.


------------------
-Tony

[This message has been edited by Disto (edited 04-18-2001).]

-Tony
Disto is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 09:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Robert Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: The OC
Posts: 4,208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Larry is correct, I have had good results with the DLX 650 with revision "L" (if you can correct the green shift via powerdvd and/or gel filters).
There is increased color wheel noise (doesn't bother me). Anything was better than using the external inputs or living with the tearing which gave me a terrible eye strain!
The Davis techs I have communicated with state they don't see anything "wrong", "green", or "different" about the color with revision "L". I can't see how they cannot notice, even using a CC20M strength gel filter it's still visible. There was some mention from a user that they were told by a davis tech that the "L" does not work correctly with any clone projector, only with a Davis hence causing the green shift.
I am very skeptical that that is possible as the techs at Viewsonic (my OEM) know nothing about the internal software and are unlikely to have produced any proprietary additions to the 650.
Well, green color or not (and a company has posted on this board is offering a complete gamma correction for color and contrast "soon" for the 650) I am immensely enjoying my projector!
Next stop for me: HDTV...


Robert

------------------
Robert Clark

[This message has been edited by Robert Clark (edited 04-18-2001).]

Robert Clark
Robert Clark is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 09:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Robert Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: The OC
Posts: 4,208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Add...
I wish I were more skilled with adjusting the geforce. Lance, you told me that you were able to adjust a geforce to get rid of the greens on "our" 650. When I adjust the green gamma setting on mine it alters the desktop color but has no effect on DTV. How were you able to adjust it?

Thanks,
Robert

------------------
Robert Clark

Robert Clark
Robert Clark is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 12:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
hsitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Seattle
Posts: 503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Larry Davis:
Knowing what I know now, I would be very wary of any XGA single chip DLP. But some people have enjoyed their XGA DLP's for a year or two and not agreed with me that the problems I saw were deal killers. . . . </font>
Hehe, very clever wording, Larry. Actually I think some of the people who are enjoying their XGA DLP's did not even agree that the problems you saw on the XGA units you've demo'd even existed on their projectors. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

I do agree that for people whose primary viewing will be DVD that steering them towards a DL-S8 or DL450 is perhaps the best option, particularly if they don't have a chance to preview a projector they're buying.

But as one of those who is perfectly happy with an XGA DLP (Compaq MP1600) I would say that the MP1600's occasionally available on eBay for less than $2k are as good or better in bang for buck as the $1,500 DL450 clones that many people picked up a year or so ago. I've A/B'd the MP1600 against a DL450 clone and preferred the MP1600's image.

Even so, I would say that for clopez, who already has a DL450, you don't want to waste your money in an XGA "upgrade". Maybe it would be worth it if you're planning on showing HDTV or have some special need for XGA resolution, but maybe not even then. -- Herb



[This message has been edited by hsitz (edited 04-18-2001).]
hsitz is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 02:19 PM
jxo
Advanced Member
 
jxo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK, I can't resist. Joe L. didn't jump in, so I'll say something. One of the major problems that Larry and Alan encountered with the xga unit(s) was posterization/banding. There has always seemed to be a reluctance on their part to believe that the artifacts that they saw were/are not present on other similar units-- this prompted endless threads on the topic about a year ago.

I have recently seen how bad these artifacts can be on my Plus 1100 xga unit and I agree it's a deal killer-- purple posterization blobs everwhere, really distracting. If this is what Alan and Larry saw, I agree with them. So what happened? I have been working with Thumper on mods to this unit and after one of his procedures the Plus started exhibiting the EXACT type of artifacts that Larry and Alan complained of. After a few rounds with Thumper, he concluded that the artifacts were caused by a slight misallignment of the color wheel that may have resulted from the mods he did. My unit is due back by Friday but Thumper tested the unit and confirmed that the misalligned color wheel was the cause. He intentionally misalligned color wheels on other units as well and was able to replicate the problem. Apparently, the color wheel has to be set exactly right to avoid these problems and the factory tolerances were not tight enough to avoid having some go out misalligned. I am convinced this is what caused the "banding" that Larry and Alan saw on the LT100 they had.

So, I couldn't resist "leaking" these findings b/c this thread seems on point. Once my unit is back, I will post more on the topic.

IMHO, Thumper's modified Plus 1100s and LT100s may project the best image of any 1-chip DLPs you can get your hands on ... period. I say this having seen both the Seleco and the Dwin units. I have not done a side-by-side, so I will not be unqualified with my view. Like Larry I am a stickler for image quality. My reference is a Sony G90, so I don't have any allegiance to these units other than trying to find something suitable for applications where the big Sony won't fit.

------------------
Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim
jxo is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 03:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
nataraj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 8,020
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was (is ?) in the same boat. I was unhappy with dl450 primarily because of HDTV and inability to surf (difficult to surf in svga). I found a partial fix accidentally ... I got a ECP 4501 cheap locally. I'm in an apartment, so if you have a separate home theatre, I suppose you could try a crt projector.

I'd have preferred to upgrade to Infocus 350, mainly because of support for HDTV and good s-video scaling. But the reported black level problems & inability to find one at my price point discouraged me.

------------------
www.musicalnirvana.com
Presenting the genius of Indian Classical Music
nataraj is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
clopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the input guys.
You are also making it much harder.
I want to get DirectTv HDTV

so here is what I have so far

DLP - Davis new projector (will wait for some info from Alan by next week)

CRT - Sony D50Q

LCD - Sanyo PLV-60

any input?
clopez is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old 04-18-2001, 09:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
dlptheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Robert Clark:
Lance, you told me that you were able to adjust a geforce to get rid of the greens on "our" 650. When I adjust the green gamma setting on mine it alters the desktop color but has no effect on DTV. How were you able to adjust it?</font>
Hey Robert,

Well the greens were 'out' using DVD played on a version of AsusDVD that came bundled with my friends GeForce card we never tried dTV since I didn't have a tv input card for either machine then. Thinking back I think it was a rebadged version of PowerDVD. This was during a side by side comparison to my DL450 w/mpact2 HTPC and the pictures looked basically the same (the 650 looked brighter and less pixel structure of course). Wish I could help you with the dTV problem your having...



------------------
lance
I'm looking for a job!
Resume online at http://resumes.dice.com/lkstitch
dlptheater is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 04-19-2001, 08:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
nataraj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 8,020
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
dlptheatre,

AsusDVD is a rebadged WinDVD.

Robert,

GeForce card does not allow gamma correction on video overlays. The adjustment you are making is for desktop ... on the video overlay tab you will only see combined saturation & hue adjustments. BTW, I didn't find the Power DVD color adjustments useful for defeating the green push ... or may be I didn't try enough. I got a filter (CC10M) which I thought was better. BTW, we see green push on many single chip DLP machines.



------------------
www.musicalnirvana.com
Presenting the genius of Indian Classical Music
nataraj is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 04-19-2001, 09:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Robert Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: The OC
Posts: 4,208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nataraj:
dlptheatre,

AsusDVD is a rebadged WinDVD.

Robert,

GeForce card does not allow gamma correction on video overlays. The adjustment you are making is for desktop ... on the video overlay tab you will only see combined saturation & hue adjustments. BTW, I didn't find the Power DVD color adjustments useful for defeating the green push ... or may be I didn't try enough. I got a filter (CC10M) which I thought was better. BTW, we see green push on many single chip DLP machines.

</font>
The color adjustments are under the "video" tab in the configuration menu. Under the "enable hardware acceleration" box you will see three sliders. I believe you have to have a dvd playing to adjust this. Slide the two color sliders toward "blue" and "red" to taste. I have mine set on +4 towards both red and blue to cure the greens. The resulting picture is excellent!

Robert

------------------
Robert Clark

Robert Clark
Robert Clark is offline  
Closed Thread Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off