Brief Impression of Sanyo PLV-60 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 01:47 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
TzungILin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Folks,

I had the chance to play with a PLV-60 for about an hour, saw something good and bad, but it's only a quick view, I'm also looking forward to Thumper's professional review.

I connected to Japan BS Digital 1080i first, out of the box, it showed great color for a HD feed. after some fine tune, I got the best setting for 1080i as Contrast 29 (default 32), Brightness 20 (default 32), and it's a great picture, looks almost like CRT direct view TV. But this is no news to me, I've seen it in INFOCOMM ASIA showing 1080i NCAA basketball and Shuttle Launch, so, No surprise here.

Move on to DVD, I played a SONY Wega Demo disc, it's 16x9 with bright and colorful scenery. In this case, I need to boost the contrast to 35, brightness to 29, then it comes out very good looking, however, the picture does not look as nice as HD. I guess DVD is still SD, PLV-60 is using its scaler to fill its panel, and one can see the scaling artifacts sometimes.

I played Super Speedway DVD, not as colorful and bright as the Sony Demo disc. I'm sorry to say, I am not impressed. Since this is a movie source, I turned on its "Progressive" mode, but still saw lots of 3-2 artifacts, so I can confirm that it does not have reversed 3-2. Everyone who reviews PLV-60, please use Super Speedway Ch. 7, to see the race car runs by a stadium, and you'll see. (or Titanic for that matter)

Finally, I put in Haunting DVD, the torture test and the test I've been waiting for. At INFOCOMM ASIA (see my post http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/005375.html) Sanyo demoed Disney's Dinosaur DVD, and I discovered that its performance during those dark scenes in the cave is not so good. I worried that its gamma curve for the low light scene is not tune well yet. So, I put in Haunting again just to see whether Sanyo has improved it. Well, pretty much the same impression I've got from INFOCOMM ASIA, still not very good. It's actually unbearable to watch Haunting on PLV-60. It does have a gamma control, but it's a 0-15 scale of dark to bright transition. I found it of little use to bring out the color in the low light scenes. I'm disappointed in this. I think Mitsubishi L-2000V beats PLV-60 in playing DVD in general, both in dark and bright scene. L-2000V has a very good DLE feature (Dynamic Level Expander), it's similar to gamma, it really brings out the color and detail of low light area. Watching the same scene in Haunting, L-2000V picture is more film like and natural looking than PLV-60.

So, this is my brief impression of PLV-60:
1. Fantastic in HD (its 1366x768 panel is put to good use)
2. Average in DVD, (480i scale up to its 1366x768 has some fault)
3. Bad in dark scenes. this is really disappointing. 500:1 contrast should have a better picture than what I saw.

Come to think of it, the screen I saw the demo is a high gain screen, maybe I will change my view if a lower gain or grey screen is used. And I did not use iScan since I thought a NT$288,000 player (about US$9000) should have everything, but it does not, no 3-2, not a good picture in dark scene. If one just watch HD, then this IS the machine to get, it's awesome! But, DVD is just not impressive.

Maybe someone can use a low gain screen and run the test again? Thumper, please put in Haunting or Dinosaur in your test of PLV-60, and tell us what you see.

The wait is over, now move on to the next best thing to happen, maybe the upcoming Yamaha DPX-1 in May ...

Just my .2 cent.

Tzung-I
TzungILin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 07:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DanHouck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Lake Chapala, old Mexico
Posts: 4,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sounds like this is another projector that will require outboard processing to do a good job. I guess we may as well get used to this. . .better plan on an HTPC. . . resistance is futile! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Based on my impressions at CES, I came away with the feeling that all DLP/LCD projectors benefit from grey screens, unless they are also very weak in the lumens department, apparently not a problem with this projector. Your impression does seem to confirm there is a marked drop in contrast ratio between the 21N and the PLV 60. But there is also the possibility that the unit you saw was simply not calibrated/optimized. The need for this also seems to be pretty much inevitable with the current generation of projectors. It is almost certain the high gain screen did not help the contrast situation.

Tzung, thanks for your valuable input. Please continue posting your impressions here, you are a skilled observer and reporter!

Dan


My HT is an oldie but goodie!
DanHouck is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 04:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,833
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked: 196
"It is almost certain the high gain screen did not help the contrast situation."

It sounds like contrast is not necessarily a problem, but the shape of the gamma curve at low IRE.

TzungILin, leaving aside the issue of low-IRE detail, how was the black level?

Maybe when Thumper gets ahold of it he can tweak the gamma settings.

Thanks

Thanks

------------------
Noah

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 05:44 PM
Member
 
tropicalisland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sounds like the internal processing of the Sanyo is not as good as the Sony sister. This is a major disappointment to me because I do not want to do outside processing, I want plug & play for $7000.
tropicalisland is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 06:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
Reed W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Woodinville, Wa. USA
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I agree with Tropicalisland. For this kind of money, ($6500 street?), we should be able to get a one box, plug and play system. All I want is good color, good contrast, decent black level, minimal screen door, adaquate scaler and a 16:9 panel would be nice. Why is this so hard to do for $5k - $7k? Come on manufacturers, get with the program. Are you out there Infocus Home Theater projector? Reed.
Reed W is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 07:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DanHouck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Lake Chapala, old Mexico
Posts: 4,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Tropical & Reed: I couldn't agree more, this is one of my major bitches. But I am beginning to think I am wasting my typing fingers on this one, they all seem to require outboard processing, regardless of price. I think the big problem is that these projectors are just too damn expensive for what they are.

Dan

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
DanHouck is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 07:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
Reed W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Woodinville, Wa. USA
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Dan - I totally agree! I was holding out hope that the PLV60 would be the one we have been waiting for. It might be to early to tell, but sounds like first impressions are just more of same - Another over-priced projector that needs outboard processing.

If I could only find the new Dwin DLP for $6k, I'd be happy. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Meanwhile, the search continues!!! Reed.
Reed W is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 04-19-2001, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
TzungILin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yes, I think I missed some points in my previous write up, here's more:

1. Black Level
It's decent, in 1080i HD, there is a scene with a Russian Orchestra playing, many men were wearing black suits, and it appear black, but with shining black. By that, I mean it's not like deep black like DLP, but bright black. It's not dark grey though, but bright/shinning black. In viewing HD, the black is not a problem, it's acceptable to me, I'm a DLP supporter.

2. PLV-60 vs VW10HT
Well, no contest, I'll pick PLV-60 over VW10, if price is no concern. VW10 color appears to be washed out, and the black is poor. PLV-60 color is rich and black is decent. The higher contrast ratio helps here. But if you ask me whether it's worth the extra $2K-3K, I don't know, it's up to you. I'll wait for other projectors.

3. 500:1 contrast ratio
Well, what bothers me about this projector is that I am comparing Mitsubishi L-2000V (550:1 contrast) to PLV-60 using the same scene, and L-2000V has a much better picture in the dark scenes like Haunting and Dinosaur. Doesn't make sense, since 500:1 and 550:1 are so close, the human eye should have a difficulty distinguish them. So, the only explanation I have is that the gamma table is not optimized yet. Can Thumper load and change the gamma table into PLV-60 like he did for UP1100? I hope so, otherwise, PLV-60 will have a hard time.

4. Screen door
Many people complain about VW10 for its screen door, well, I must confess, I am the kind of person who is less sensitive to screen door (I also cannot see rainbow effect). And standing about 10 ft. from an 80" , 16x9 image area, I honestly cannot see any screen door. But maybe someone else will see it. Again, it's more personal issue.

Tzung-I
TzungILin is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 04-20-2001, 07:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DanHouck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Lake Chapala, old Mexico
Posts: 4,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Tzung:

I reread your post and couldn't determine if you did a side by side comparison of the Mitsubishi and Sanyo using the same screen. If not, the screen could very well have impacted your impressions, as it is pretty much concluded by now that high gain screens are not the best companion to the brighter LCD and DLP projectors. The "shiny" blacks in particular were probably caused by the excessive (for this projector) reflectance of the screen.

And it is likely the Sanyo could use some calibration. This seems to be a given with digital projectors right out of the box.

You mentioned seeing the image on an 80" screen. Was that width or diagonal measurement? Was the screen 16:9 or 4:3?

Thanks for your continued feedback on this projector. But I wouldn't hold out too much hope for the Yamaha DLP unless major changes are made from the prototype unit I saw at CES. It suffered from serious rainbow artifact and excessively dark image (inadequate light output). One can only hope the final unit will use the new 6 section color wheel and improved scaling to deal with the rainbow issue. Other than using a 200W bulb instead of the 150 in the show unit, not sure how the darkness could be cured.

Dan

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
DanHouck is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 04-20-2001, 09:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kelliot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 3,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Has the Mitsubishi L-2000V (or clone) been released in the US and what are the specs?

------------------
Ken Elliott

Ken Elliott
kelliot is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 04-20-2001, 09:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
Flexx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: South Florida
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
<<Thanks for your continued feedback on this projector. But I wouldn't hold out too much hope for the Yamaha DLP unless major changes are made from the prototype unit I saw at CES. It suffered from serious rainbow artifact and excessively dark image (inadequate light output). One can only hope the final unit will use the new 6 section color wheel and improved scaling to deal with the rainbow issue. Other than using a 200W bulb instead of the 150 in the show unit, not sure how the darkness could be cured.>>

The Yamaha brochure I just rec'd showed a three-color wheel (minus the white). I haven't read or heard about the Yamaha using a 6 section color wheel. Interesting if it's true.
Flexx is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 04-20-2001, 11:50 AM
Member
 
Mike Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Tzung,

Another key question people have about the PLV-60 is whether it can be driven by a HTPC at full resolution (1366x768). Do you have a PC that you can use to test this?

Thanks,
-Mike
Mike Anderson is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 04-20-2001, 09:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Robert_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: North TX
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think what would really be key is the abililty to tweak the PLV-60 just like the 10HT. If it is using the same Sony panel, then one would think this could be possible.

Can you check the service menu to see if there are gain and bias adjustments?

Thanks
Robert
Robert_S is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 04-20-2001, 10:17 PM
Member
 
AlanHsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
TzungILin,

Did you attend the Sanyo demo in Taipei or was it a private/business demo? What DVD player was used?

Alan Hsu
AlanHsu is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 04-20-2001, 10:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DanHouck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Lake Chapala, old Mexico
Posts: 4,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Flexx:
If this is true, the Yamaha will be DOA, a current generation as opposed to new generation unit. The prototype just didn't cut it when it came to rainbow and brightness. We shall see.

Dan

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
DanHouck is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 04-21-2001, 02:25 PM
Member
 
Holger Klingspohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 49
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Has the Mitsubishi L-2000V (or clone) been released in the US and what are the specs?
</font>
Ken,

Tzung-I posted a good review of the LVP-L2000V: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/004596.html

Unfortunately Mitsubishi is selling this unit only in Japan. I have been searching for an export company, so far with no results. Perhaps there is a board member with good Japanese connections who could co-ordinate an international power-buy?

Holger
Holger Klingspohr is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 04-21-2001, 03:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bbq@KL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bridgewater
Posts: 1,332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"Perhaps there is a board member with good Japanese connections who could co-ordinate an international power-buy?
"


http://www.avsforum.com/ubbcgi/ubbmi...erName=JS+Kwon
JS Kwon will ship L2000V from Japan, huh?
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000122.html

Thanks.

------------------
bbq in Kowloon

bbq@KL is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 04-21-2001, 04:36 PM
Member
 
Holger Klingspohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 49
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
bbq,

thanks for the heads-up. I sent JS Kwon a message - it would be really nice if this works out.

Holger
Holger Klingspohr is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 04-23-2001, 01:05 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
TzungILin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
All,

Sorry, two kids consumes all my time over the weekend, I did not have time to surf!

Now, to answer some questions:

Dan:
You're right, I reviewed the L-2000V using a Da-mate screen with supposedly 1.0 gain, and the PLV-60 was done on a 2.0 gain, and they were on two different reviews, not side by side. But L2000V has a very enjoyable viewing experience with Haunting and Dinosaur, but not PLV-60. I did some fine tuning on the PLV-60, but since I could not enter the service mode (if there is any), hence I cannot do a full calibration. I would hope that Thumper can spend more time than I did. Though I'm not satisfied with its DVD performance, its HD picture is outstanding! And it was 80", 16x9.

AlanHsu,
I attended the Sanyo press at Taipei, but the demo was poorly done with too much light in the demo area, and over-exposed picture (contrast too high). Later I had a chance in a private situation to view the PLV-60, and that was when I spent an hour with it, playing with all kinds of source/signals. The DVD used was the Pioneer CVL-H9, supposedly pretty good, close to DV-S9 performance.

Mike,
We did not have a HTPC to drive it, this is a good idea, I'll check if I can borrow the beast home and use my HTPC to drive it. I understand that VW10 cannot be driven to the full panel 1366x768, am I right?

Robert_S,
It does have RGB gain as I recall seeing it on the GUI. I don't have the menu handy for me, hence can't help on whether it has bias or not.

I'll try to borrow the PLV-60 for a longer review. stay tuned.


Tzung-I

TzungILin is offline  
post #20 of 21 Old 04-23-2001, 01:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
Endymion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Posts: 513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
TzungILin ,

You can probably enter the service mode on the PLV-60 by the following:

Depress the"menu" and "normal" keys simultaneously for 3-5 seconds.

This works for the 21N and is likely to work on the 60.



------------------
John

John
Endymion is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 04-23-2001, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
TzungILin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks, John,

I'll give it a try when I got the PLV-60 for review this weekend.

Tzung-I
TzungILin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off